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Chocoholic wrote:I dont' care if I get flamed for this, I'm going to say it anyway! It was not the Pope's opinion, he was quoting from another text, rightly or wrongly. However the reaction from the Islamic world is once angain nothing more than ridiculous, with threats to kill the Pope, down with the Vatican etc etc etc.
Do you ever see Westerners or Christians reacting in such a way over fanatical Islamic 'clerics' calls for the killing and destruction of the western world - NO!!!!

Get over it!

l

Choco
My apologies, but i must disagree and argue on this one.

A) if it was not the Popes opinion, he has thus far had plenty of opportunities to say so. He said he made a quote in an acedemic environment, but he still hasnt said that he didnt agree to it - which is what the people want to hear, muslims and non muslims.

B) Is there such thing as a WORLD ISLAMIC BODY which voices the Opinions of all 1 Billion+ muslims? NO! so how can you pick up on a few angry statements made by an absolute fraction and state the above about killing the pope? In the aftermatch of Terror attacks on the Twin towers, numerous Americans live on TV said "Nuke Em" when asked how they thought their goverment should react. That was just the ordinary public. That was the feelings of few random idiots of a nation. The pope has offended a quarter of the entire globe. there are bound to be overreaction by others.

C) I remember the world in uproar when the outgoing Malaysian Prime minister accused the jews of ruling the world by Proxy - and ALL western leaders demanded, yes Demanded an apology, THREATENING to cut trade, and impose sanctions on the nation.

D)I am no apologist for the The Iranian leader (i truely think he is bad for the region) but when he accused the Jews as overstating the Holocaust for political gains, And invited a discussion on this topic. Western leaders were up in arms and Demanded an apology as it hurt the feelings of those who lost loved ones during the genocide. Yet, the Pope has just offended a billion + people, in regasrds to their Holy Prophet...yet this is over reaction?

E) Have we forgotten that the US president has a LARGE religious backing? the Same group who insist on the existance of Israel even if it means illegally. Those groups who encouraged the Iraq, Afghan and are pushing for the Iranian war? If thats not calling for Killing...what is?

The media always neglects the moderate islamic voices. They always promote the extreme to sell their agenda. Your comment to "Get over it " is very disrespecfull. I have many Muslim friends, and your characterisation of them is completely innaccurate.

Arnie seems to have understood what I was saying, and Shaf, you are right - I certainly do not want to come off as racist or Islamophobic in my posts. I'll try to word more carefully but sometimes I just don't see all the possible interpretations. I wasn't comparing the fact that Israel and Hezbollah were at war - I was comparing two groups of people over-reacting.

Yes, there has been violence and murder after Muslims have been offended by non-Muslims - don't you agree? I think about Theo Van Gogh, the Dutch film maker, as well as the nun recently killed. Non-Muslim tourists and embassy staff have been shot or bombed in many countries like Syria, Indonesia and Egypt.

Yes, angry Christians can be murderous too - they have been murdering abortion clinic workers and doctors.

Kanelli

Muslims are angry because the pope used Islam as a fulcrum to denigrate their culture.

It's the same with the cartoon fiasco. The West hid behind freedom of speech to denigrate Islam, but when an Arab/Muslim group printed cartoons in response they were labeled as anti semitic.

I do no such thing, and fully expect that card to be played by people like you. (you=ones with radical ideas who can't stand anyone disagreeing with them).

Edit: This reply was to the original wording of your post, that you have now drastically changed.

The West can label things anti-semitic and anti-Islamic - which in fact they did. The beauty of free speech is that anyone can print what they want and anyone can criticise what they want. I don't see how the West was hiding behind anything - free speech is free speech - and it comes with its own consequences.

Western double standards: "Anti-Jewish cartoons are repugnant and uncivilized! But anti-Islamic cartoons are OK with us!"


Kanelli
"The West can label things anti-semitic and anti-Islamic - which in fact they did. The beauty of free speech is that anyone can print what they want and anyone can criticise what they want. I don't see how the West was hiding behind anything - free speech is free speech - and it comes with its own consequences."

May I post a cartoon of Jesus then, standing with his pants down, smiling, raping a little boy? The caption above it reads "Got Catholicism?" It's OK since we're all opposed to religion right? Or maybe a cartoon of a Rabbi with blood dripping from his mouth after bludgeoning a small Palestinian boy with a knife shaped like the Star of David - the caption reads "The Devil's Chosen Ones." That would be acceptable since we're all opposed to religion? Correct? Oh.. Right, I forgot. Such a thought would be "anti-Semitic," but racist, Islamophobic garbage is "OK"

You are stereotyping! The West in general fights for the right to maintain free speech. It doesn't mean that everyone thought the cartoons weren't offensive. Can't you tell the difference between the two issues?

And if I met a person who objects to anti-semitic cartoons yet thinks anti-Islam ones are okay I'd ask them why they feel that way and point out the hypocrisy of it. Chances are they'd change their opinion upon realising their bias. People can change their minds you know.

kanelli wrote:You are stereotyping! The West in general fights for the right to maintain free speech. It doesn't mean that everyone thought the cartoons weren't offensive. Can't you tell the difference between the two issues?

And if I met a person who objects to anti-semitic cartoons yet thinks anti-Islam ones are okay I'd ask them why they feel that way and point out the hypocrisy of it. Chances are they'd change their opinion upon realising their bias. People can change their minds you know.

With all due respect, I disagree with you. Western free speech ends wehere the interests end. Under the same "free speech" you will be prosecuted if you question the numbers involved in the holocaust, and you will be procecuted if you mock gays or lesbians.

I disagree.

First of all, only a few countries legally penalise people for denying the holocaust - not the entire West. And I personally think those laws are ridiculous.

Secondly, everyone has a right to free speech, but not to harrass people. For example, if people speak out against h.o.m.o.s.e.x.u.a.l.s by holding placards and screaming nasty things at a h.o.m.o.s.e.x.u.a.l's funeral - that is harrassment. So how the free speech is being conducted influences whether it is considered punishable or not.

kanelli wrote:I disagree.

First of all, only a few countries legally penalise people for denying the holocaust - not the entire West. And I personally think those laws are ridiculous.

Secondly, everyone has a right to free speech, but not to harrass people. For example, if people speak out against h.o.m.o.s.e.x.u.a.l.s by holding placards and screaming nasty things at a h.o.m.o.s.e.x.u.a.l's funeral - that is harrassment. So how the free speech is being conducted influences whether it is considered punishable or not.

Now I agree. I am personally an advocate for free speech, without harassing others. This icludes harassing Gays, lesbians, Jews, Christians or Muslims. Therefore, this icludes also the pope's speech.

The Pope's speech is not harrassment, it is free speech.

valkyrie wrote:Western double standards: "Anti-Jewish cartoons are repugnant and uncivilized! But anti-Islamic cartoons are OK with us!"


Kanelli
"The West can label things anti-semitic and anti-Islamic - which in fact they did. The beauty of free speech is that anyone can print what they want and anyone can criticise what they want. I don't see how the West was hiding behind anything - free speech is free speech - and it comes with its own consequences."

May I post a cartoon of Jesus then, standing with his pants down, smiling, raping a little boy? The caption above it reads "Got Catholicism?" It's OK since we're all opposed to religion right? Or maybe a cartoon of a Rabbi with blood dripping from his mouth after bludgeoning a small Palestinian boy with a knife shaped like the Star of David - the caption reads "The Devil's Chosen Ones." That would be acceptable since we're all opposed to religion? Correct? Oh.. Right, I forgot. Such a thought would be "anti-Semitic," but racist, Islamophobic garbage is "OK"

Yes, Valkyrie - such a cartoon has every right to be published according to free speech. Some people will find the cartoon distasteful, some will not. Some people will criticise it, some won't. That is the beauty of free speech. There are still consequences of expressing oneself, but at least people are free to express themselves. People have fought and given their own blood for such freedoms. Truthfully, it would be great if some garbage was never put out into the public, but there isn't one right person capable of censoring it all, so there should be no censorship - period.

kanelli wrote:The Pope's speech is not harrassment, it is free speech.

You're wrong, and 1.5 billion Muslims deserve an apology.

Okay, if you want to take it that way - the Pope's speech "harrassed" people to the same extent that Ahmadinejad's comments about Israel and the holocaust offended Jewish people. I doubt you see the two situations as equitable though. Were you calling on Ahmadinejad to apologise? I don't remember you doing so on this forum.

Both are clear examples of free speech (and both people deserved to apologise) - so no, I am not wrong.

And by the way, the Pope did apologise. Perhaps you haven't been reading the news or watching TV for a few days...

MS wrote:

kanelli wrote:The Pope's speech is not harrassment, it is free speech.

You're wrong, and 1.5 billion Muslims deserve an apology.

MS i usually follow your logice, but you lost me this time. Can you explain to me how his speech was harrassment? And how is his speech any different than what the sheikhs daily talking about jews and crusaders ?

Personally i really dont care what the Pope thinks of Islam.

First of all, the pope did not apologize. He said he is sorry that his statement was misunderstood. That's not an apology.

MaaaD, the speech disrespects 1.5 billion Muslims on this earth. The pope's quote was: "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached".

disrespects .. yes

harasses ... i dont think so.

MS, did you read the whole speech by the Pope or just that bit that has been published in the media? I have read his apology and yes, he did do a quick and superficial job of it. His apology does not address the main points of contention.

MaaaD wrote:disrespects .. yes

harasses ... i dont think so.

Agreed.

In any case, I don't really care about what has been said. My posts are intended to be more general: it seems that Muslims are the only group that can be harassed/disrespected/mocked/made fun of under free speech. When other groups are mentioned under the same free speech it is anti-something.

kanelli wrote:MS, did you read the whole speech by the Pope or just that bit that has been published in the media? I have read his apology and yes, he did do a quick and superficial job of it. His apology does not address the main points of contention.

Kanelli, as I said, i'm not really concerned with this specific incidence. What I'm really concerned with is how Islam is globally perceived, and how Muslims are respected in the world.

MS wrote:

kanelli wrote:MS, did you read the whole speech by the Pope or just that bit that has been published in the media? I have read his apology and yes, he did do a quick and superficial job of it. His apology does not address the main points of contention.

Kanelli, as I said, i'm not really concerned with this specific incidence. What I'm really concerned with is how Islam is globally perceived, and how Muslims are respected in the world.

well i guess u have to ask the leader of OIC to take actionand denounce terrorism and suiceide bombing ...ppl all over the world will have respect for em

Good point Sniper, and MS, I find that you do just as good a job of stereotyping the West as you feel the West is doing about Islam.

MS wrote:First of all, the pope did not apologize. He said he is sorry that his statement was misunderstood. That's not an apology.

MaaaD, the speech disrespects 1.5 billion Muslims on this earth. The pope's quote was: "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached".

This is not the whole of the quoted speech by the Pope, he actually went on to use the rest of the quote whish in fact everyone should agree with, and that is faith should be spread in a peaceful manner.

My personal view is that the whole thing was taken out of context. And if you're going to bash on about the Pope making an apology, then the President of Iran should apologise for insulting and belittling hundres of thousands of Jews over the Holocaust and saying he wished to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. Were these not 'offensive' and 'insulting' to many people? Yes they were, but no-one threatened to murder him or start killing Iranians did they.

I am a Christian by birth, but I do share the pain and sentiments of the muslim brethren caused by the Pope's remarks.

The remarks were indeed unfortunate, inappropriate and rather unbecoming from an office that teaches respect and tolerance for all religions.

My only appeal at this stage is: let 'us' be 'more magnanimous' and accept the apology at face value.

Sadly all this stuff just goes to reinforce my opinion that any and all religions are more problematic than they're worth.

Probably totally off topic but where have you been. It's all been left to poor Kanelli (in the forum) to deal with the nonsense. I've been working like a donkey (or acting like one if you ask around). Good to see you are back to inject some "sense".

Sorry C, I've been so busy this week harldy any time at all. Will be the same over the weekend. But loadsa free time next week, as it all calms down.

Back on topic, once again, all this stuff is only words. There are more important questions and issues to be dealing with than a centuries old piece of conversation - perspective people.

Chocoholic wrote:Sorry C, I've been so busy this week harldy any time at all. Will be the same over the weekend. But loadsa free time next week, as it all calms down.

Back on topic, once again, all this stuff is only words. There are more important questions and issues to be dealing with than a centuries old piece of conversation - perspective people.

100% with you.

Concord wrote:Probably totally off topic but where have you been. It's all been left to poor Kanelli (in the forum) to deal with the nonsense. I've been working like a donkey (or acting like one if you ask around). Good to see you are back to inject some "sense".

which u lack

Concord wrote:Probably totally off topic but where have you been. It's all been left to poor Kanelli (in the forum) to deal with the nonsense. I've been working like a donkey (or acting like one if you ask around). Good to see you are back to inject some "sense".

One man's sense is another BS.
same applies for both sexes!