Dubai Forums Dubai Discussions Dubai General Chat

hey guys
there is some confusion on when the actual date of ramadaan is ...does it start on

friday 22nd

saturday 23rd

sunday 23rd

...i know the cycle of moon determines the start date...but what would your educated guesses say...

Ramadan will either start on Saturday the 23 or Sunday the 24th. According to astronomical predictions it is most likely to start Sunday the 24th but no one will know till the night of when the moon is sighted.

I heard 7 pm on the 23rd, so the fasting starts on the 24th

hotels are gearing up to begin from sept 24th....

THANKS GUYS
so would you say for certain that 22nd is highly unlikely...

Can I ask a ridiculous follow-up question?? Well I'm gonna ask it anyway!

How decides when Ramadan has started?? I mean, I understand that their is an astronomical event that triggers it, but I'm guessing that ultimately there is a human arbitrator who confirms the event has happened on behalf of all muslims??
Oh, and how do they let the world know??

Thanks!

constantine wrote:THANKS GUYS
so would you say for certain that 22nd is highly unlikely...

const actually its not unlikely its impossible

the_zooter wrote:Can I ask a ridiculous follow-up question?? Well I'm gonna ask it anyway!

How decides when Ramadan has started?? I mean, I understand that their is an astronomical event that triggers it, but I'm guessing that ultimately there is a human arbitrator who confirms the event has happened on behalf of all muslims??
Oh, and how do they let the world know??

Thanks!

Zoots, the Islamic calendar is a lunar one. And with a lunar year is not exactly divsible by any number of "lunations" which is the amount of time needed for a full moon cycle. More on that here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_calendar

So that being said the lunar month (or lunation) can be either 29 or 30 days. To make things even more fun Islamic scholars insist on seeing the moon with the naked eye and not depend on any technology so you find that evey year one country will say they saw the moon and start fasting while the other will say they didnt see the moon and start fasting the day after.

I hope this made sense and i didnt confuse you even more!!

MaaaD wrote:So that being said the lunar month (or lunation) can be either 29 or 30 days. To make things even more fun Islamic scholars insist on seeing the moon with the naked eye and not depend on any technology so you find that evey year one country will say they saw the moon and start fasting while the other will say they didnt see the moon and start fasting the day after.

I hope this made sense and i didnt confuse you even more!!

With that in mind, I'm surprised that the fasting ever starts in England - we could go a month without seeing the moon because of heavy cloud!!

the_zooter wrote:With that in mind, I'm surprised that the fasting ever starts in England - we could go a month without seeing the moon because of heavy cloud!!

heheh well luckily the month will never be more than 30 days .. so even if you dont see the moon 30 days is the maxiumum. Because also look at it the other way the fasting might also never end because you have to see the moon to start the next month

ps fun fact for ya Ramadan is the 9th month of the lunar calendar.

Maaad

does this mean fasting starts at different times around the globe ?

and...

In which country and who/what/where is the actually decision made to say "OK its Ramadan" ???

arniegang wrote:Maaad

does this mean fasting starts at different times around the globe ?

and...

In which country and who/what/where is the actually decision made to say "OK its Ramadan" ???

it will always vary by a day, each country have to decide for themself

arniegang wrote:Maaad

does this mean fasting starts at different times around the globe ?

Yes but again "different times" just means a day difference. So You will find that some countries will fast on saturday while others will start on sunday.

In which country and who/what/where is the actually decision made to say "OK its Ramadan" ???

Each country's goverment has a comittee that is tasked with looking out for the moon and thus deciding the first and last days of fasting. In countries where the goverment is not Islamic, usually the Muslim organization in the country will make the annoucement.

However, I would say most of the time most countries follow Saudia Arabia's decision.

All Muslim lunar months are defined as starting when the new moon is visible from that place.

We can now calculate when the moon will be visible from any place on the earth - but it is a reasonably complex calculation as there are a number of factors that need to be taken into account.

1. The moon is physically born at a precise moment - this is easy to look up. This is defined as the moment the moon moves out of the earth's shadow.

2. at the astrological birth of the moon, the crescent is not visible from earth when viewed by the naked eye - a powerful telescope is required to see this.

3. Only a moon that is approximately 20 hours old is visible from earth - so we can calculate this moment as well.

4. For the moon to be visible from a point - it must be in sight of that point on earth, and this is determined by the elevation of the moon relative to the horizon.

For any given location, we can therefore calculate which night the moon will be visible from a given location.

Astronomically, some places of a necessity must start Ramadhan on a different day - if the above rules are observed.

The complication is that there are different interpretations - some people follow when the moon is visible in Mecca, by naked eye. Others say that we can use the astronomical birth even though it is not visible without a telescope.

Astronomically we know easily that the moon can only be born on one of two days. If it is not seen on the first day, then the next day automatically becomes Ramadhan. Traditionally, if on the first night all the sky is overcast, then the moon is not sighted and the next night will be the first night of Ramadhan.

There you - more information that you ever needed!!

Cheers,
Shafique

thanks guys for all the info... ...just hope that Ramadaan isnt announced on the 22nd by any chance of nature...or improbability...lol...just being careful and cautious...

shafique wrote:All Muslim lunar months are defined as starting when the new moon is visible from that place.

We can now calculate when the moon will be visible from any place on the earth - but it is a reasonably complex calculation as there are a number of factors that need to be taken into account.

1. The moon is physically born at a precise moment - this is easy to look up. This is defined as the moment the moon moves out of the earth's shadow.

2. at the astrological birth of the moon, the crescent is not visible from earth when viewed by the naked eye - a powerful telescope is required to see this.

3. Only a moon that is approximately 20 hours old is visible from earth - so we can calculate this moment as well.

4. For the moon to be visible from a point - it must be in sight of that point on earth, and this is determined by the elevation of the moon relative to the horizon.

For any given location, we can therefore calculate which night the moon will be visible from a given location.

Astronomically, some places of a necessity must start Ramadhan on a different day - if the above rules are observed.

The complication is that there are different interpretations - some people follow when the moon is visible in Mecca, by naked eye. Others say that we can use the astronomical birth even though it is not visible without a telescope.

Astronomically we know easily that the moon can only be born on one of two days. If it is not seen on the first day, then the next day automatically becomes Ramadhan. Traditionally, if on the first night all the sky is overcast, then the moon is not sighted and the next night will be the first night of Ramadhan.

There you - more information that you ever needed!!

Cheers,
Shafique

Ok then smarty pants

What if the moon cannot be seen on the first or second night

arniegang wrote:

shafique wrote:All Muslim lunar months are defined as starting when the new moon is visible from that place.

We can now calculate when the moon will be visible from any place on the earth - but it is a reasonably complex calculation as there are a number of factors that need to be taken into account.

1. The moon is physically born at a precise moment - this is easy to look up. This is defined as the moment the moon moves out of the earth's shadow.

2. at the astrological birth of the moon, the crescent is not visible from earth when viewed by the naked eye - a powerful telescope is required to see this.

3. Only a moon that is approximately 20 hours old is visible from earth - so we can calculate this moment as well.

4. For the moon to be visible from a point - it must be in sight of that point on earth, and this is determined by the elevation of the moon relative to the horizon.

For any given location, we can therefore calculate which night the moon will be visible from a given location.

Astronomically, some places of a necessity must start Ramadhan on a different day - if the above rules are observed.

The complication is that there are different interpretations - some people follow when the moon is visible in Mecca, by naked eye. Others say that we can use the astronomical birth even though it is not visible without a telescope.

Astronomically we know easily that the moon can only be born on one of two days. If it is not seen on the first day, then the next day automatically becomes Ramadhan. Traditionally, if on the first night all the sky is overcast, then the moon is not sighted and the next night will be the first night of Ramadhan.

There you - more information that you ever needed!!

Cheers,
Shafique

Ok then smarty pants

What if the moon cannot be seen on the first or second night

If the moon is not seen on the first night I believe they form a committee to decide when Ramadan will start and then it will be in force from the next day, the same happens at the end, the month of Ramadan can only be 29 or 30 days, never less or never more.

I reckon it'll be Saturday. That's what most people are saying anyway, but of course we have to wait for the moon spotters.

Chocoholic wrote:I reckon it'll be Saturday. That's what most people are saying anyway, but of course we have to wait for the moon spotters.

really? ive been hearing sunday...

oh well, this happens every ramadan. so well just have to wait and see

Arnie, if you'd read my post you would have found the answer!

Ramadan will start on one of two days, if the moon is not sighted on the first night, then it will start on the following night (under Islamic calendar, a day starts at sunset).

The way the moon 'works', the new crescent will always be visible on the 2nd day and only may be visible on the first day.

Anyway, not long to go and I don't know which day it will start!!

Cheers,
Shafique