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I am really interested in knowing if kanelli can define what is a moderate muslim and then she should also define what is a moderate christian?. This will provide us a means of comparison between a moderate muslim and a moderate christian(unless she thinks there is no such thing as a moderate christian or that all of em are indeed already moderate including their leaders).


Cheers

Firstly, Islam is very clear about statues: didn't the Prophet Mohamed break down himself the first stone Gods ? Thereafter, it became a holy duty for all good Muslims. Firuz Shah Tughlak (1351-1388) who has an avenue named after him in New Delhi, wrote: "on the day of a Hindu festival, I went there myself, ordered the executions of all the leaders and practitioners of this abomination; I destroyed their idols and temples to build mosques in their places".

......
Encyclopaedia Americana says of Hindu Kush: The name means literally 'Kills the Hindu', a reminder of the days when Hindu slaves from Indian subcontinent died in harsh Afghan mountains while being transported to Moslem courts of Central Asia. While Encyclopaedia Britannica mentions "that the name Hindu Kush first appears in 1333 AD in the writings of Ibn Battutah, the medireview Berber traveller, who said the name meant 'Hindu Killer', a meaning still given by Afghan mountain dwellers who are traditional enemies of Hindus".

"Unlike the Jewish holocaust, writes again Vyas, the exact toll of the Hindu genocide suggested by the name Hindu Kush is not available. However the number is easily likely to be in millions". A few known historical figures can be used to justify this estimate. Encyclopaedia Britannica recalls that in December 1398 AD, Timur Lane ordered the execution of at least 50,000 captives before the battle for Delhi; likewise, the number of captives butchered by Timur Lane's army was about 100,000 .

Encyclopaedia Britannica again mentions that Mughal emperor Akbar 'ordered the massacre of about 30,000 captured Rajput Hindus on February 24, 1568 AD, after the battle for Chitod, a number confirmed by Abul Fazl, Akbar's court historian. Afghan historian Khondamir records that during one of the many repeated invasions on the city of Herat in western Afghanistan, which used to be part of the Hindu Shahiya kingdoms "1,500,000 residents perished".



http://www.hvk.org/articles/0401/64.html

Lahore (AsiaNews/Ucan) – Outrage at the death of a Catholic boy forced to convert to Islam at the hands of torturous abductors has prompted the Pakistan Catholic Bishop’s Commission of Justice and Peace, to take up the legal case. The Christian youth died of injuries inflicted by a teacher and students at an Islamic school. The National Commission for Justice and Peace declared May 4th that the incident reflects a worrying trend of forced conversions.

http://www.asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=763

More generally, however, Copts complain that they often face discrimination and that they are vastly under-represented in senior government positions and in the army and the police.

Also, allegations of forced conversions surface every year.

The rise of an assertive Islamist movement in Egyptian society in the last three decades has produced tensions in Coptic-Muslim relations.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4080777.stm

The takeover of the National Islamic Front government in 1989, and its drive to Islamize a country that is only partly Moslem, has not only led to massive killing, starvation, displacement, and pauperization of the Dinka and Nuba populations in southern Sudan. There also has been a systematic drive to eliminate their religions, languages, legal systems, and customs. I believe we need to broaden our theoretical framework beyond the 1948 UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide to include the concept of what I describe as "cultural genocide."

....
It is worth examining the language used in the NIF’s Islamizing campaign. The government of Khartoum declared jihad against the Christian Nuba; Muslim clerics issued a fatwah against "the infidels." "The Comprehensive Call" (Da’wa el Shamla) has encompassed varying intensities of indoctrination, which include political/economic/social incentives, harassment, detention, and forced conversion, especially in the "peace villages," where Christian Nuba have been "resettled" and isolated from the outside world.

It has been reported that virtually every woman placed in a peace camp has been raped or forced into service as a prostitute or concubine for the army or militia. Massive systematic rape functions as a kind of ethnic cleansing,
http://www.crimesofwar.org/sudan-mag/sudan-hale.html

valkyrie wrote:Firstly, Islam is very clear about statues: didn't the Prophet Mohamed break down himself the first stone Gods ? Thereafter, it became a holy duty for all good Muslims. Firuz Shah Tughlak (1351-1388) who has an avenue named after him in New Delhi, wrote: "on the day of a Hindu festival, I went there myself, ordered the executions of all the leaders and practitioners of this abomination; I destroyed their idols and temples to build mosques in their places".

......
Encyclopaedia Americana says of Hindu Kush: The name means literally 'Kills the Hindu', a reminder of the days when Hindu slaves from Indian subcontinent died in harsh Afghan mountains while being transported to Moslem courts of Central Asia. While Encyclopaedia Britannica mentions "that the name Hindu Kush first appears in 1333 AD in the writings of Ibn Battutah, the medireview Berber traveller, who said the name meant 'Hindu Killer', a meaning still given by Afghan mountain dwellers who are traditional enemies of Hindus".

"Unlike the Jewish holocaust, writes again Vyas, the exact toll of the Hindu genocide suggested by the name Hindu Kush is not available. However the number is easily likely to be in millions". A few known historical figures can be used to justify this estimate. Encyclopaedia Britannica recalls that in December 1398 AD, Timur Lane ordered the execution of at least 50,000 captives before the battle for Delhi; likewise, the number of captives butchered by Timur Lane's army was about 100,000 .

Encyclopaedia Britannica again mentions that Mughal emperor Akbar 'ordered the massacre of about 30,000 captured Rajput Hindus on February 24, 1568 AD, after the battle for Chitod, a number confirmed by Abul Fazl, Akbar's court historian. Afghan historian Khondamir records that during one of the many repeated invasions on the city of Herat in western Afghanistan, which used to be part of the Hindu Shahiya kingdoms "1,500,000 residents perished".



http://www.hvk.org/articles/0401/64.html

val .... like teenage high skool fool dont cut and paste stuffs form sites.......

i ahve read enuf history and lemme tell u timur came form line of genghiz khanand he killed ANYONE let it be hindu or muslim who didnt give way to him............ secondly king Akbar was the most secular ruler india has ever seen or ever see........he loved hindus and muslims alike and wanted to unite and make new fused religion......about those killings...those killingfs were very common those days....so stop whining an dcuting and pasting an dexhibiting double personality

In December 2003, a Mandaean was confronted in front of a group of people in Baghdad and told to convert to Islam. When he refused, he was killed on the spot. Many similar incidents have been reported to the SMAA including an account of a seven-year-old boy burnt to death (6). The SMAA continues to receive reports of Mandaeans being raped and murdered, often with extreme violence. It has also received reports that Mandaean places of worship (mandi) have been confiscated in several Iraqi cities (5). The police are usually of little help, little effort being made to distinguish religiously motivated crimes from other crimes (7).

As of January 2004, thirty-five Mandaean families were forced to convert to Islam, this including forced circumcisions. Mandaean women and girls in these families were forced to marry Muslim men (6). It is crucial to note here that one cannot be a Mandaean unless both of one's parents are Mandaean (1, 2, 11). Hence, the forced marriages are a means of forcing the religion out of existence. There are also numerous kidnappings of Mandaeans (7, , and police often tell the families that there is nothing they can do (7). Public baptisms are an important part of the Mandaean religion, and Iraqi Mandaeans are often harrassed and abused during these ceremonies (4). On 30 November 2004, a Mandaean clergyman, the Rev. Tarmida Saleem Ghada, was ambushed at the Mandaean place of prayer on the Deeala River. Tarmida was leading prayers at the river when Muslims shot him seven times in the legs, severely wounding him (17). The lawlessness of Iraq has also been used as an opportunity for the repudiation of debts owed to Mandaeans, leaving them without hope of redress (8).

http://www.counterpunch.org/bolender01082005.html

sniper420 wrote:

valkyrie wrote:Firstly, Islam is very clear about statues: didn't the Prophet Mohamed break down himself the first stone Gods ? Thereafter, it became a holy duty for all good Muslims. Firuz Shah Tughlak (1351-1388) who has an avenue named after him in New Delhi, wrote: "on the day of a Hindu festival, I went there myself, ordered the executions of all the leaders and practitioners of this abomination; I destroyed their idols and temples to build mosques in their places".

......
Encyclopaedia Americana says of Hindu Kush: The name means literally 'Kills the Hindu', a reminder of the days when Hindu slaves from Indian subcontinent died in harsh Afghan mountains while being transported to Moslem courts of Central Asia. While Encyclopaedia Britannica mentions "that the name Hindu Kush first appears in 1333 AD in the writings of Ibn Battutah, the medireview Berber traveller, who said the name meant 'Hindu Killer', a meaning still given by Afghan mountain dwellers who are traditional enemies of Hindus".

"Unlike the Jewish holocaust, writes again Vyas, the exact toll of the Hindu genocide suggested by the name Hindu Kush is not available. However the number is easily likely to be in millions". A few known historical figures can be used to justify this estimate. Encyclopaedia Britannica recalls that in December 1398 AD, Timur Lane ordered the execution of at least 50,000 captives before the battle for Delhi; likewise, the number of captives butchered by Timur Lane's army was about 100,000 .

Encyclopaedia Britannica again mentions that Mughal emperor Akbar 'ordered the massacre of about 30,000 captured Rajput Hindus on February 24, 1568 AD, after the battle for Chitod, a number confirmed by Abul Fazl, Akbar's court historian. Afghan historian Khondamir records that during one of the many repeated invasions on the city of Herat in western Afghanistan, which used to be part of the Hindu Shahiya kingdoms "1,500,000 residents perished".



http://www.hvk.org/articles/0401/64.html

val .... like teenage high skool fool dont cut and paste stuffs form sites.......

i ahve read enuf history and lemme tell u timur came form line of genghiz khanand he killed ANYONE let it be hindu or muslim who didnt give way to him............ secondly king Akbar was the most secular ruler india has ever seen or ever see........he loved hindus and muslims alike and wanted to unite and make new fused religion......about those killings...those killingfs were very common those days....so stop whining an dcuting and pasting an dexhibiting double personality

why don't you provide some evidence for your asserions? reading your broken english is bad enough, but when you imbue your posts with ad hominem attacks you only make yourself look bad

danielmax2010 wrote:I am really interested in knowing if kanelli can define what is a moderate muslim and then she should also define what is a moderate christian?. This will provide us a means of comparison between a moderate muslim and a moderate christian(unless she thinks there is no such thing as a moderate christian or that all of em are indeed already moderate including their leaders).


Cheers

Actually, it is hard to define because people's beliefs can sit on a continuum from none at all to very extreme. In general, moderate means that they look for both sides to the story, are flexible and respectful of other's people's faiths or people of their own faith who practise it to a different degree than they do. Also, moderates are not as easily swayed by propaganda because they tend to be more critical. Moderates do not believe in only one strict way to follow their faith and they do not seek to punish anyone who disagrees or who does not practise as they do. Moderates are far less prone to violence than extremists.

Lionheart wrote:

kanelli wrote:Are moderate Muslims doing enough?

There is no such thing as moderate or Fundementalist muslims...a muslim is muslim. There are good muslims and there are bad muslims...in the same way as there are bad and good Christians or Jews or Hindus...so please stop dividing muslims into classifications that don't exist.

"There are good Muslims and bad Muslims." I classify people across a whole continuum of belief and yet you class them into only two opposing groups - good and bad. How can you say there is no such thing as moderate?

kanelli wrote:Actually, it is hard to define because people's beliefs can sit on a continuum from none at all to very extreme. In general, moderate means that they look for both sides to the story, are flexible and respectful of other's people's faiths or people of their own faith who practise it to a different degree than they do. Also, moderates are not as easily swayed by propaganda because they tend to be more critical. Moderates do not believe in only one strict way to follow their faith and they do not seek to punish anyone who disagrees or who does not practise as they do. Moderates are far less prone to violence than extremists.

So does that rule out Most of Britain as Moderate Christians...as they are "Sun" readers and follow propaganda?

Does that rule out most of USA as Moderate Christians. as they watch either CNN, or FOX both channels who always beat the war drums?

You have to understand when this term "Moderate Muslims" started to be used. and that was post september 2001 when Dubya needed to find a name for muslim nations who would follow him. So for you to decide who is Moderate is a farce. Pakistan was called Moderate... but they are a military dictatorship.

If a Moderate is someone who is not prone to Violence or extreme...then that is not the US, as the government is very influenced by Evangelicials and Neo Zionists who are both proudly Anti Islam.

Moderate is open to interpretation. there is no such definition in regards to a faith. Just like the USA could never provide a definition for "Terrorism"... it is only used for convenience.

Since it is about interpretation, i will tell you what is Moderate - SWEDEN!
the most wonderfull country on earth!

rvp_legend wrote:Since it is about interpretation, i will tell you what is Moderate - SWEDEN!
the most wonderfull country on earth!

sure thats why it has the highest suicide rate in the world.

For me to decide... ? What, are you now taking me for the US government?

If you don't like my definition, then why don't you offer one up? Or are you like one of the other posters who likes separate groups into only good and bad?

shafique wrote:

kanelli wrote:Are moderate Muslims doing enough?

Yes.

The issue is that normal Muslim behaviour is not newsworthy - praying, being charitable, speaking truth and being good citizens of the world do not make headlines.

The historical truth is that Islam was never spread by the sword, nor has it spawned vicious wars in the name of Islam in the way that people were converted to Christianity at the point of the sword in Spain and elsewhere and the religious wars that was the Crusades.

The barbarians in these long centuries were those from the West whilst the civilised humanitarians were those of the Islamic empire.

Yet today we seem to need to 'prove' Islam is a peaceful religion and that it was not spread by the sword. When all the studies show that Islam is the fastest growing faith worldwide it gives us some hope that those who take the time go beyond the headlines and their biases, they find the truth.

Cheers,
Shafique

well said Shafique! too many people are unaware of this and really don't want to discuss it. Have you noticed you had no reaction to your post? not even from the person who asked the question?

kanelli wrote:For me to decide... ? What, are you now taking me for the US government?

If you don't like my definition, then why don't you offer one up? Or are you like one of the other posters who likes separate groups into only good and bad?

Now Now, you cannot go generalising about all who question the way you think

I just dont like labels, as it creates false images - thats all.

But i do respect your opinion, even if i may not agree with it.

MaaaD wrote:

rvp_legend wrote:Since it is about interpretation, i will tell you what is Moderate - SWEDEN!
the most wonderfull country on earth!

sure thats why it has the highest suicide rate in the world.

Sure it does

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide

Read the bit about Sweden

tdot, in case you haven't noticed, the topics in these hot threads move fast and some points can be overlooked. I wouldn't jump to conclusions about why peope respond or why they don't.

Pope Benedict XVI is cool.

He would be even cooler if he would openly and fairly criticize (some aspects of) Judaism.

Mint Tulip wrote:Pope Benedict XVI is cool.

He would be even cooler if he would openly and fairly criticize (some aspects of) Judaism.

he wasnt to far off thou , i guess with such a loarge nuber of closed minded people being maslims , they took offence to the truth

oh well

i dont see rallies were maslims condemn the action of 9/11
or any of the other terrorist activities and suicide bombings
how many of you have seen actually mass rallies against that shit??

NONE!!!!

why? cause we truely are savages !!!

[quote="Mint Tulip"]Pope Benedict XVI is cool.( the truth hurts)

He would be even cooler if he called for a new crusade and then he would have been able to show the jews how to do it