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dbxsoul wrote:firstly after reading (part of) the speech i can't believe that there was actually anyone awake to hear what he said after the first paragraph.

secondly he should now realise that he is the spiritual leader of approximatly 1.1 billion souls and the responsability that goes with it (prehaps he is to young for the position ), and secondly he has the potential to antagonise another 1.3 billion people through an indiscresionate remark.

personally i don't think he prepares his own speaches, but at least should take the trouble to read through them before presenting them!

Good summary DBX, I just woke up, asleep at my PC

zam wrote:But Ian even if he says 10 things and only 1 number is offending,people concerned would react. Muslims are not blowing it out of proportion.
I agree to someone who said on the other thread that before a speech, it is reviewed couple of times, thus Vatican knows what they are doing. Now the question is why do it if you know that it would stir up violent reactions?

Muslims are blowing it out of proportion damn

Don’t u get it ?? Why can't u disgrace the fags we have for leaders and sheikhs now a days. Why?

But u choose to attack our respected prophet PBUH.

And then say that we are taking it out of proportion !!! what do u expect.

When the leader of the Christian faith says something, people listen; this is not George bush we are talking about. The pope acted like a politician and not a man of religion.

Any ways I have posted my views in the other thread.

And yeah

the popiness is traveling to...TURKEY

I just hope that history won't repeat itself.

I think I said "not"

^^ yeah i was reffering to the ppl in genral not u, may be i was just a bit fumed up.

kanelli wrote:Jamal is a WUM, just ignore him!

ignored a long time ago, beat you to it dude....haha

but whats the WUM stand for?

Wind-up merchant (a.k.a Troll)

kanelli wrote:Wind-up merchant (a.k.a Troll)

thats for the clarification dude

Dudette.

kanelli wrote:Dudette.

hahaha K you spend so much time trying to tell peeps your not a "dude" .. i think its time for some girly avatar

kanelli wrote:Dudette.

sorry....my bad

kanelli wrote:Dudette.

what does kanelli mean?

Stop hijacking the thread peeps I'll put some breasts on my Yoda or something.

kanelli wrote:Stop hijacking the thread peeps I'll put some breasts on my Yoda or something.

kanelli wrote:Stop hijacking the thread peeps I'll put some breasts on my Yoda or something.

uuuuuu......yoda with fake breasts! May the force be with u Yodi!

sniper420 wrote:

Corcovado wrote:

Jamal wrote:

sniper420 wrote:

Jamal wrote:

^ian^ wrote:Ok, a couple of things, reacting violently to an accusation of violent behaviour isn't necessarily very intelligent if you're disputing the claims.

Secondly, the Pope represents the Catholic Church, not the Islamic faith, what do you expect?

I personally think Muslims should attempt to at least prove him wrong, and show the world they're just as good (or better) at sowing the seeds of love and friendship as they are at sowing seeds of hate.

you know when ppl are growin a plant they usually keep like a stick beside the plant an tie the plant to it so it grows straight .. when u dont use that stick the plant tends to bend and once its grown u cant straighten it...
well as u mentioned we muslims grew up with the sowin seeds of hate tied upon us .. an we cant be changed no more ...

so f&%K the pope
an f&%K you too.

so u a muslim? U r a prime example of muslims follwong prophet's teachings!

yea sniper im a muslim ... like u dont know mother lover u been tryin to get at me all this time ...

an i aint followin no teaching i was jst provin Ian right by displayin all the hate we be sowin ... them seeds we be growin them leaves we be rollin .

now chilll .. let me inhale on it.

then be a real muslim a true one and stop swearing and using bad language cos this has nothing 2 do with islam .. Islam is about respect and love

do follow true islam? just askin..........

no but i respect all religions

^ian^ wrote:Ok, a couple of things, reacting violently to an accusation of violent behaviour isn't necessarily very intelligent if you're disputing the claims.

Secondly, the Pope represents the Catholic Church, not the Islamic faith, what do you expect?

I personally think Muslims should attempt to at least prove him wrong, and show the world they're just as good (or better) at sowing the seeds of love and friendship as they are at sowing seeds of hate.

Ian, I agree with this, as typically once again, many have reacted with violent and hatful reactions only reinforcing the stereotype which is very very sad indeed.

People shouldn't be so sensitive about it all, I mean when it boils down to it, it's really silly. People get all het up over a few silly cartoons and now a poorly chosen speech, I mean for goodness sake, aren't there more importnant things to be angry about, like say oh the 800 missing child camel jockeys who never reached Pakistan after being sent from here!

..........
Do you think the Pope's apology will end the controversy? Send us your comments.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/

Chocoholic wrote:

^ian^ wrote:Ok, a couple of things, reacting violently to an accusation of violent behaviour isn't necessarily very intelligent if you're disputing the claims.

Secondly, the Pope represents the Catholic Church, not the Islamic faith, what do you expect?

I personally think Muslims should attempt to at least prove him wrong, and show the world they're just as good (or better) at sowing the seeds of love and friendship as they are at sowing seeds of hate.

Ian, I agree with this, as typically once again, many have reacted with violent and hatful reactions only reinforcing the stereotype which is very very sad indeed.

People shouldn't be so sensitive about it all, I mean when it boils down to it, it's really silly. People get all het up over a few silly cartoons and now a poorly chosen speech, I mean for goodness sake, aren't there more importnant things to be angry about, like say oh the 800 missing child camel jockeys who never reached Pakistan after being sent from here!

wel;l choco u have to see what ppl are sensitive to..........for u st george flag may b dear and changing it can enrage u.....same way ppl in east religion plays imp role in every walk of life.....so an insult to the founder of religion is insult to all of them.......in ur remarks u didnt even crticize th old pope... he shold have known better with yrs of experience

Oh PUh-Lez....he should have taken stories from christain crusades example after first crusade massacre a message was sent saying they killed all the inhabiants in jerusalem and blood were flowing to their knees........he should ave used that context to explain religion and vilence dont get along.......but he chose Muslims present act!

dubaidiva wrote:

Gene wrote:German Pope Benedict XVI has offended Muslim in a speech this week where he implicitly linked Islam and violence, particularly with reference to jihad or "holy war".

He also quoted a 14th-century Byzantine emperor who said innovations introduced by the Prophet Mohammed were "evil and inhuman".

Then today, he came out to sorry to all Muslims. However, his comments have sparked an ongoing wave of anger across the Islamic world.

"It is unfortunate that such an eminent figure like the Pope has not shown leadership in promoting good relations between religions. Instead, his statement has had the effect of sowing more seeds of discord and will not be conducive for dialogue among religions." AFP

oh come on.... dumb uneducated muslims always find something to critisize the west about.... if only their English/German was a bit up to date they would find there is nothing to get upset about

ridiculously Funny...

^ian^ wrote:Secondly, the Pope represents the Catholic Church, not the Islamic faith, what do you expect?

You are very right

I personally think Muslims should attempt to at least prove him wrong, and show the world they're just as good (or better) at sowing the seeds of love and friendship as they are at sowing seeds of hate

.

Man, i know that this is coming really from a good intention, but who is going to make happen. the media?!!

For more than 1400 years muslims nations have proven that, and our book talk about it since that time. and now .. out of the blue we start to become the worst nations, well.. its really our fault.

When you ask about Islam, no one knows what is it... they just hear this word in islam. What they know is: They are terrorists, they dont eat pork, and their God's name is Allah.

^ian^ wrote:

I personally think Muslims should attempt to at least prove him wrong, and show the world they're just as good (or better) at sowing the seeds of love and friendship as they are at sowing seeds of hate

.

Ian,
With all due respect why does a Religion which has been around for 1400 years, has the peacefull message in its Text, proven to have had more merciful leaders than those of the Dear Pope's Christianity have to now prove themselves?
Recent stats show Islam is outgrowing ALL other faiths by a large margin. and by 2050 it is expected to become the largest.

We must not forget that the Islam was not created in September 2001. The Media frenzy and its own politically suited version was.

Man, i know that this is coming really from a good intention, but who is going to make happen. the media?!!

For more than 1400 years muslims nations have proven that, and our book talk about it since that time. and now .. out of the blue we start to become the worst nations, well.. its really our fault.

When you ask about Islam, no one knows what is it... they just hear this word in islam. What they know is: They are terrorists, they dont eat pork, and their God's name is Allah.

Intimacy
Maybe you can raise awareness in your local area? Teach people what the faith really is. That way you can detach it from the Violence and hatred often portrayed in the western media.

Since you say Muslims themselves are to blame...maybe you can do your bit and lead by example and show people it is not about extremism?
it has to start somewhere...

I quote from an editor column which really is a balanced view , atleast not going into sort of stuff like conspiracy against muslims etc, but a real analysis and it represents what a sane person would argue. I do agree we have lots of other issues to worry about as kanli wrote, however such things should be answered in a propoer manner as to warn others not to make such incidents( both muslims and christians.)


"============================================"
MUSLIMS from Indonesia to Morocco have reacted angrily to Pope Benedict XVI’s unfortunate remarks against Islam. While the two houses of parliament in Pakistan have condemned the remarks and demanded that he apologise, government leaders in Malaysia, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Palestine, Egypt and Morocco have expressed anger and regrets over what all agreed were ill-advised remarks. Even the head of the state-run directorate of religious affairs in Turkey has described the pope’s statement as “full of enmity and grudge” and made it clear that the pontiff wasn’t welcome to Turkey. Now the Vatican has issued a clarification, saying that the pope did not wish to “carry out a deep examination of jihad and or Muslim thought on it” or to hurt Muslim sentiments. The pope also said he was sorry that his speech offended Muslims, though he stopped short of offering an outright apology. But if he did not wish to carry out “a deep examination” of the jihad phenomenon in the first place, then he should have kept quiet rather than uttered words devoid of common sense much less intellectual content on a subject on which Christian scholars with a profound knowledge of history and comparative religion have recorded their thoughts. Secondly, one can accept that the pope did not wish to hurt Muslim sentiments, but then the end-result of his remarks has exactly been the same. If he did not wish to offend the sentiments of the world’s one billion plus human beings, the pontiff should have been a little more circumspect in his utterances at a time when the state of Muslim-Christians relations have come under strain.

Agreed that the pope said “I quote” twice in his speech at Regensburg University and quoted a 14th century Byzantine emperor’s remarks about the Holy Prophet and jihad. Normally, a person giving a quote cannot be held responsible for the views contained in it, so long as the quotation is part of a long discourse designed to prove or disprove a point. But here the pope quoted Emperor Manual II Paleologos approvingly, and the latter retraction saying that he did not wish to hurt Muslim sentiments sounds unconvincing. In any case, he was quoting an emperor who fought losing battles against the Ottomans, was once a vassal at the court of Sultan Yildrim, owed his throne to the sultan, and paid him an annual tribute after becoming emperor at Constantinople. Later he went to Europe to seek military help against the Ottomans but merely received lip service. That Pope Benedict should have approvingly quoted someone who was at the Turks’ receiving end is indeed regrettable. Besides, does not the world’s Catholic community have enough problems of its own? Should not the pope dwell on his flock’s problems rather than quoting profanities against the Holy Prophet?

His predecessor, Pope John Paul II, was Polish and belonged to a people who have a long history of persecution. As head of the Catholic church, Paul II worked hard to create understanding among the world’s faiths, especially between Islam and Christianity, and was never on record as having said anything hurtful to Muslims. Pope Benedict XVI has regrettably failed to follow in his predecessor’s footsteps. The controversy ignited by the Danish cartoons stemmed from the work of a single individual, but here the hurt and the potential for discord are greater because the profanity came from the head of the world’s Catholic community. Strange as it may sound, German Chancellor Angela Merkel has defended the Pope, forgetting that her country has millions of Muslim citizens."

Cheers
Danyal

Are moderate Muslims doing enough?

kanelli wrote:Are moderate Muslims doing enough?

give examples what are they supposed to do

kanelli wrote:Are moderate Muslims doing enough?

The Question should be, Are moderate Christians doing enough?

The other Thing Kan, Please define the word "Islam"

kanelli wrote:Are moderate Muslims doing enough?

Yes.

The issue is that normal Muslim behaviour is not newsworthy - praying, being charitable, speaking truth and being good citizens of the world do not make headlines.

The historical truth is that Islam was never spread by the sword, nor has it spawned vicious wars in the name of Islam in the way that people were converted to Christianity at the point of the sword in Spain and elsewhere and the religious wars that was the Crusades.

The barbarians in these long centuries were those from the West whilst the civilised humanitarians were those of the Islamic empire.

Yet today we seem to need to 'prove' Islam is a peaceful religion and that it was not spread by the sword. When all the studies show that Islam is the fastest growing faith worldwide it gives us some hope that those who take the time go beyond the headlines and their biases, they find the truth.

Cheers,
Shafique

kanelli wrote:Are moderate Muslims doing enough?

There is no such thing as moderate or Fundementalist muslims...a muslim is muslim. There are good muslims and there are bad muslims...in the same way as there are bad and good Christians or Jews or Hindus...so please stop dividing muslims into classifications that don't exist.

shafique wrote:

kanelli wrote:Are moderate Muslims doing enough?

The historical truth is that Islam was never spread by the sword, nor has it spawned vicious wars in the name of Islam in the way that people were converted to Christianity at the point of the sword in Spain and elsewhere and the religious wars that was the Crusades.

When Muslim Arabs invaded Persia in 650 CE, a small number of Zoroastrians fled to India where most are concentrated today. Those who remained behind have survived centuries of persecution, systematic slaughter, forced conversion, heavy taxes, etc. They now number only about 18,000 and reside chiefly in Yazd, Kernan and Tehran in what is now Iran. The 1991 census counted 3,190 Zoroastrians in Canada. The actual number is believed to be much higher.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/zoroastr.htm

Zoroastrians in Iran have, like other religious minorities, survived centuries of persecution. Communities exist in Tehran, as well as in Yazd and Kerman, where many still speak an Iranian language distinct from Persian. They call their language Dari (not to be confused with the Dari of Afghanistan). Their language is also called Gabri or Behdinan (literally "Of the Good Religion"). Sometimes their language is named for the cities in which it is spoken, Yazdi or Kermani. Iranian Zoroastrians were historically derogatorily called Gabar (roughly translated as 'infidel') by Muslim neighbours. The term is still used but has lost much of its derogatory meaning.

Subsequent to the fall of the Persian Empire, after which Zoroastrianism was gradually supplanted by Islam, many Zoroastrians fled to other regions in the hope of preserving their religious tradition. Among them were several groups who migrated to Gujarat, on the western shores of the Indian subcontinent, where they finally settled. The descendants of those refugees are today known as the Parsis.

In contrast to their co-religionists elsewhere, in India the Zoroastrians enjoyed tolerance and even admiration from other religious communities.

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