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A few articles from 2001 about the Taliban make interesting reading. These were written after the destruction of the Buddhas, but before 9/11.

First from NY Times - an interview of the Taliban envoy who visited the US in 2001 and met with the US goverment and spoke at universities etc. Interesting facts about the destruction of the Buddhas - they were initially protected by the Taliban and people were punished for seeking to destroy them... read for full story - note particularly the last sentences.

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/03/19/world/19TALI.html?ex=1157428800&en=040513261f60adde&ei=5070

Another insight is from a Jason Burke, an extract copied below.
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v23/n06/burk01_.html

The key point is that, for many in Afghanistan, the Taliban are a great improvement on what went before. An Amnesty Report covering the (pre-Taliban) period from 1992 to 1994 was entitled 'Women in Afghanistan: A Human Rights Catastrophe'. For those who find it difficult to understand why there should be any sympathy for the Taliban the report makes challenging reading. Over that period, it says,

armed groups massacred defenceless women in their homes, or have brutally beaten and raped them. Scores of young women have been abducted and raped, taken as wives by commanders or sold into prostitution . . . Scores of women have . . . 'disappeared' and several have been stoned to death . . . The perpetrators are the main Mujahideen groups . . . As territory changes hands after long battles, an entire local population can be subjected to violent retaliatory punishments. The conquerors often celebrate by killing and raping women and looting property.

These days, rape - at least by strangers and soldiers - is relatively rare in Taliban-controlled areas. So is the widespread theft and abduction referred to in the report. The Taliban soldiers are on the whole well-behaved. Wrong-doers in the ranks are punished, often savagely, which wasn't the case among the Mujahideen groups who preceded them. In much of the country the dismal security situation has been turned round. There is a system of justice and rudimentary policing which, whatever its manifest flaws, does function. I once asked the owner of a roadside tea stall near the eastern town of Ghazni what he felt about the Taliban. 'Now you could leave a bar of gold in the street overnight and it would be safe,' he said.

The idea that the Taliban are a universally hated military regime ruling through fear and violence simply doesn't hold up. The occasional revolts are mostly to do with conscription, which is very unpopular. The repressive edicts that so outrage the West have long been the practice in most of rural Afghanistan, where 80 per cent of the population live. In the rural regions around the western city of Herat a year before the Taliban took control, there were, according to Save the Children UK, nearly 75,000 boys at school and fewer than 2000 girls. In the Afghan countryside women have never gone to school, left the village unaccompanied or chosen their husbands. There is no need to ban television - there aren't any sets. The 1994 Amnesty Report also says that 'women have been prevented from exercising several of their fundamental rights . . . to association, of expression and employment - by Mujahideen groups who consider such activities to be un-Islamic.' So you couldn't really say that the Taliban are innovators.



And finally a page which links to many stories about the destruction of the Buddhas:
http://www.asiasource.org/news/at_mp_02.cfm?newsid=46971

Hi Shafique,
I will try to comment on your note also take this means to express my feelings off topic,

I take it that you are trying to portray a sort of positive things about taliban , like what was the situation earlier and how they changed that (drugs, women treatment etc).

What I have heard about them , I can say for myself that their way was not by any means islamic way of system that could survive in today's world.

There was zero tolerance to others in their days else they would have handed over osam atleast to another country.

They may be labelled as men of principles (from within their ideology) and stood to it until the end.

In actual fact its not taliban alone, You have to go back a little(perhaps a couple of decades or two) when the war in afghan was going on, to know the causes.

During that time, most of the muslim countries turned a blind eye on young folks who went for jehad and never returned, or if they returned they were not able to fit in the normal life as they left their studies etc. Politicians cashed these peoples in the name of revival of islam while actually it was not .

Muslims talk about goldeN islamic era but they forgot that it was a progressive society at the time, Like today muslim students travle to us, or uk for education, europeans travel to spain during the muslim rule for knowledge.

Did we see all that happening in taliban rule or how many muslim countries are willing to open their wealth and land to other muslim brothers, every thing is now localised in the islamic world and muslims are not willing to give thier share to others.

simply muslims cant be united and thats exactly what is wrong. Now how to unite them is i guess by education and teaching tolerance about other people/religion.

Islam may initially be spread through sword but later it all spread by good manners and setting good examples and certainly not by wha taliban rule was all about,

Cheers
Danyal

danielmax2010 wrote:Hi Shafique,
I will try to comment on your note also take this means to express my feelings off topic,

I take it that you are trying to portray a sort of positive things about taliban , like what was the situation earlier and how they changed that (drugs, women treatment etc).

What I have heard about them , I can say for myself that their way was not by any means islamic way of system that could survive in today's world.

There was zero tolerance to others in their days else they would have handed over osam atleast to another country.

They may be labelled as men of principles (from within their ideology) and stood to it until the end.

In actual fact its not taliban alone, You have to go back a little(perhaps a couple of decades or two) when the war in afghan was going on, to know the causes.

During that time, most of the muslim countries turned a blind eye on young folks who went for jehad and never returned, or if they returned they were not able to fit in the normal life as they left their studies etc. Politicians cashed these peoples in the name of revival of islam while actually it was not .

Muslims talk about goldeN islamic era but they forgot that it was a progressive society at the time, Like today muslim students travle to us, or uk for education, europeans travel to spain during the muslim rule for knowledge.

Did we see all that happening in taliban rule or how many muslim countries are willing to open their wealth and land to other muslim brothers, every thing is now localised in the islamic world and muslims are not willing to give thier share to others.

simply muslims cant be united and thats exactly what is wrong. Now how to unite them is i guess by education and teaching tolerance about other people/religion.

Islam may initially be spread through sword but later it all spread by good manners and setting good examples and certainly not by wha taliban rule was all about,

Cheers
Danyal

really good insight Danyal and welcome to the forum!

Excellent post Danyal - agree with everything you say, but would expand only on one point.. how muslims can unify.

I'm afraid that scholarly religious and secular education won't result in the unification of muslims. The only way to unite is under one religious leader. The segmentation and loss of power (and moral direction) of Muslims has been extensively prophecised in the Hadith. Every sin that the Jews committed, so will the Muslim Ummah commit. The Prophet, pbuh, also gave the solution to the decline of Islam and the only way the muslims will re-gain their moral direction and global strength.

That way was to return to the principles of Islam and follow the religion as practiced by the Prophet and his followers and also to follow the rightly guided messenger/leader (Imam Mahdi) when he is sent.

I am not a Shia, but relating what the Hadith clearly state and what all Sunni and Shia scholars agree are authentic hadith.

As for the post above - it was an insight into the Taliban and yes it was to show that despite what I thought, there was some method to the reported madness and there was also mis-reporting on the part of the media.

Particularly surprising to me was the revelations behind the reasons for blowing up the Buddhas - until I did my research recently (i.e. Google for news stories!) - I had unreservedly condemned the act as un-Islamic and clearly against the Quran (which says we should not abuse idols of idolworshippers).

It transpires that Mullah Omar punished a warlord for firing upon the Buddhas and issued a fatwa that they should be protected. They argue that no one was worshipping the Buddhas and only blew it up when international agencies offered money to protect the monuments but refused to give money to save starving kids. They further point out that the temples and idols being used by Hindus are protected and haven't been touched (which is what the Quran says Muslims should do).

That is just one point.

The edicts about beards, women not working etc - I still argue are not consistent with freedom of religion and what Islam is really about. However the articles point out that much of these edicts were already in force in the rural areas (where banning of TV had little meaning, for example).

With a more complete picture of the Taliban - what they represent in the context of Afghanistan, what the alternatives were, what life under them was like compared to before and since - one gets a clearer understanding of why the Taliban are making a strong come-back.

Their comeback did not make any sense to me when I believed that they were pure evil - distorting Islam and imposing Medieval values on a 21st century country. The fact that in early 2001 there was a Taliban representative touring the US and speaking to the administration belies this inaccurate view of them.

As it turns out - it isn't black and white, but grey. The frightening thing is that if I hadn't made the effort, the media coverage would have left me with the strong impression that the Taliban were/are irrationally evil and un-Islamic.

My mind has changed.

Welcome once again.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Excellent post Danyal - agree with everything you say, but would expand only on one point.. how muslims can unify.

I'm afraid that scholarly religious and secular education won't result in the unification of muslims. The only way to unite is under one religious leader. The segmentation and loss of power (and moral direction) of Muslims has been extensively prophecised in the Hadith. Every sin that the Jews committed, so will the Muslim Ummah commit. The Prophet, pbuh, also gave the solution to the decline of Islam and the only way the muslims will re-gain their moral direction and global strength.

That way was to return to the principles of Islam and follow the religion as practiced by the Prophet and his followers and also to follow the rightly guided messenger/leader (Imam Mahdi) when he is sent.

I am not a Shia, but relating what the Hadith clearly state and what all Sunni and Shia scholars agree are authentic hadith.

As for the post above - it was an insight into the Taliban and yes it was to show that despite what I thought, there was some method to the reported madness and there was also mis-reporting on the part of the media.

Particularly surprising to me was the revelations behind the reasons for blowing up the Buddhas - until I did my research recently (i.e. Google for news stories!) - I had unreservedly condemned the act as un-Islamic and clearly against the Quran (which says we should not abuse idols of idolworshippers).

It transpires that Mullah Omar punished a warlord for firing upon the Buddhas and issued a fatwa that they should be protected. They argue that no one was worshipping the Buddhas and only blew it up when international agencies offered money to protect the monuments but refused to give money to save starving kids. They further point out that the temples and idols being used by Hindus are protected and haven't been touched (which is what the Quran says Muslims should do).

That is just one point.

The edicts about beards, women not working etc - I still argue are not consistent with freedom of religion and what Islam is really about. However the articles point out that much of these edicts were already in force in the rural areas (where banning of TV had little meaning, for example).

With a more complete picture of the Taliban - what they represent in the context of Afghanistan, what the alternatives were, what life under them was like compared to before and since - one gets a clearer understanding of why the Taliban are making a strong come-back.

Their comeback did not make any sense to me when I believed that they were pure evil - distorting Islam and imposing Medieval values on a 21st century country. The fact that in early 2001 there was a Taliban representative touring the US and speaking to the administration belies this inaccurate view of them.

As it turns out - it isn't black and white, but grey. The frightening thing is that if I hadn't made the effort, the media coverage would have left me with the strong impression that the Taliban were/are irrationally evil and un-Islamic.

My mind has changed.

Welcome once again.

Cheers,
Shafique

Interesting.....I thoguht at the same time that Buddha was there loooooooong time and Taliban if it would have been destroyer of art would have destroyed logn time ago. Now the story fits in. If you don tmind Shaf can u provide a link for that?

"Every sin that the Jews committed"

I have read other anti Jewish posts by you, however I ignored it. I don't care really care what Al Illah said in the koran or the jurisprudence of Islam the al haddiths. You should realize that the koran contradicts itself right? Also, I don't remember what verse, but I believe Al Illah prays to him/herself. If Al Illah is all powerful, than why would it pray to itself?

valkyrie wrote:"Every sin that the Jews committed"

I have read other anti Jewish posts by you, however I ignored it. I don't care really care what Al Illah said in the koran or the jurisprudence of Islam the al haddiths. You should realize that the koran contradicts itself right? Also, I don't remember what verse, but I believe Al Illah prays to him/herself. If Al Illah is all powerful, than why would it pray to itself?

where did u read that? or r u all flamed up?

The next day, at least 600 Jewish men were beheaded in public on the edge of trenches and their bodies thrown in. The women and children were sold. Muhammad took one of the women - Rayhana, newly widowed, as a concubine.

The elimination of Ka'b took place after the Battle of Badr. The story goes that the head of Ka'b was placed at Muhammad's feet. There are other stories of elimination of the opponents of Muhammad. For example, Ocba, Asma bint Marwam and Abu Afak were all murdered.

Muhammad, the Stalin of the 7th century

Sniper420, I'll read the Koran just for you

edit: The Satanic Verses, haven't you ever heard of that before?

valkyrie wrote:The next day, at least 600 Jewish men were beheaded in public on the edge of trenches and their bodies thrown in. The women and children were sold. Muhammad took one of the women - Rayhana, newly widowed, as a concubine.

The elimination of Ka'b took place after the Battle of Badr. The story goes that the head of Ka'b was placed at Muhammad's feet. There are other stories of elimination of the opponents of Muhammad. For example, Ocba, Asma bint Marwam and Abu Afak were all murdered.

Muhammad, the Stalin of the 7th century

Sniper420, I'll read the Koran just for you

edit: The Satanic Verses, haven't you ever heard of that before?

LOL I read those crap were made up........those jewish men died on battle.yeah yeah they were very powerful.why didnt they save their @ss? ofcourse in a war there should b elmination of opponents that's what every goddamn war does....assasination has been there since ages........arab land were babarians b4 islam one clan killing other clan, burying baby girls alive, primitive lifestyle but after islam came it formed one huge civilization. How many ppl died or were massacerd on operation Barbarossa alone? And yeah there is nothing about this in Quran as far as I know

Does that give Muhammad the right to order the killing of a woman because she made fun of him in a poem?

What about Muhammad's ownership of slaves and concubines, does Muhammad having ten wives (including a six year old) not trouble you?

Im waiting for someone to label me an Islamophobe

For the record I am an Islamophobe, I'm also a Buddhaphobe, Judaiphobe, give me a superstition and I'll be afraid of it.

Sniper the link is in the original post above - the first on from the NY Times.

Cheers,
Shafique

Aisha was not six when he married her, please get your facts straight before posting! Also read history and find out in those days when females were betroved for marriage....

I am still thinking on how to react to the comments made by valkyrie.

To be honest, I can find out similar silly questions against any religion but it would then defeat the purpose of discussion.

I thought we should all bring about different ideas on how to guide different members of the islamic community to live in peace with others and vice versa. Being humans we will have our differences but we should try to find common grounds to live in harmony while keeping our views.

I read somewhere:

"Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people".

Where do we all stand, do we continue talking about past events, people and destroy our present and futrue?

Regards