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Concord - I'm allowing for under reporting in making my judgements.

The agencies in the west all say that rape is UNDER reported in the UK and US.

I have not argued that there is no abuse of women in Muslim women, but state my view that the reading of the evidence is that more women are raped and abused in the West than in the East.

Paedophillia is also a form of perversion that appears to be occidental in origin.


Let's draw an analogy with violent crime - muggings. No one would argue that there are NO muggings in Dubai. Most people though would agree that per-capita there are more muggings in New York and London than in Dubai.

Finding incidences of muggings in Dubai do not change the fact that you are more likely to get mugged in NY and London than in Dubai.

My contention has been that rapes are more likely in the US and UK. Rapes are under-reported there, whereas in Muslim countries such as Indonesia and Malaysia (where there are no restrictions on movements of females) the incidences of rapes are a fraction of those of the 'west'.

Yes, there are domestic problems in the East - horrendous issues with misogyny and abuse of servants. But again, compare this with the divorce rates and domestic abuse prevalent nowadays in the US and UK and we can see which comes off worse statistically.

I apologise if I haven't got my message across - perhaps it's too emotional a topic to be looked at objectively from a statistical point of view. Any rape is a crime too far - but there is no escaping the cold fact that rapes and abuse of women is an increasing problem in the West.

For various reasons, women are more at risk of being raped in the US than they are in Jakarta or Dubai. If the stats show otherwise, then I'll be happy to change my view on this point.

Cheers,
Shafique

kanelli wrote:Well, there is also the fact that in some Islamic countries/states you can be beheaded for raping a woman - a deterrent not used in the Evil West. I wouldn't really call beheading or stoning people very civilised (but neither is the electric chair for that matter...)

Rape rates might be lower if you keep men and women segregated and cover the women up from head to toe, but then again - from my perspective, I enjoy being friends with men and dressing as I please. For me to avoid rape, I don't walk in bad areas alone at night, don't get into cars with strangers, don't get drunk and fool around with drunk men while on dates. So, I'd take equality and friendship with the majority of men who are decent men, over segregation and limitations on my rights in order to protect me from what is only a small percentage of men who rape.

When it comes to war, it has been seen throughout history that armies have raped and pillaged. You train people to kill, put them in stressful conditions, and then wonder why atrocities are commited from time to time? Again, that is not an "American" phenomenon, it is a worldwide phenomenon throughout history in every conflict.

The most populous muslim country is Indonesia where women mix pretty much with complete freedom, but tend to wear headscarves and choose to act according to Muslim values when it comes to socialising between sexes. Not segregation, but a preference to not fornicate.

The British Army prides itself on the discipline of it's troops. Raping of women to humiliate them would be an unthinkable sin for 99.9% of British troopers.

Armies are trained and can be trained well or trained badly. Rape was used as weapon in Bosnia and was heinous.

I'm surprised that the quote above seems to be justifiying or explaining the acts of the American GIs. I can't think of similar incidents carried out by Muslim soldiers - certainly not Al Qaeda or Hizbollah etc who if they are Muslim will see fornication as a sin.

I know it's uncomfortable to face unpleasant facts about one's own culture and countrymen. When I refer to the UK and the 'West' I view these as my homeland and where relatives live. Having more rapists, divorcees, single parent families etc etc does not make the West totally bad - but is a reflection of the social mores that are becoming more prevalent and causing children and women to be less safe now than they have been in the past.


Cheers,
Shafique

I don't like repetition but..

Concord wrote: I rest my case

I have discussed possible reasons why rape might be higher in non-Islamic countries, but I agree with Concord that we may never know because there are no reliable stats coming out of those Islamic countries.

I'm not sure how you can say that I was justifying what the US soldiers have done, because my wording did not explicity say that at all. Some people are claiming that US soldiers are rapists because they are American. That is simply false. Soldiers everywhere have raped, and it is because of states of lawlessness and mental stress. If I say that, it means it applies to soldiers everywhere, not just American ones.

By the way, I believe that South Africa has the highest incidence of rape in the world.

There are different situations that rape occurs in, and those need to be factored into the discussion as well. As I said before, I am a Western woman who wears what she wants and mixes with men. I have never felt threatened by rape because I am careful about the situations I put myself in. If many more women were as careful it would help cut some of the cases of rape (specifically date rape).

My friend lived in Kuwait for quite a few years and heard of all kinds of cases of abuse of domestic workers. Some were raped and made pregnant by either the father or son of the house, then kicked out of the country without any pay. These stories go around, but the government doesn't keep stats, and these women don't report it to authorities. They are dropped at the airport with their passport and a suitcase and made to get on a plane.

I agree with some of the reasons put forward for rape being higher in non-Islamic countries - the segregation of sexes plays a role. Some Islamic countries have less segregation than others - eg Iran, Indonesia, Malaysia.

However, the evidence is also of the big link between alchohol and abuse against women. The lower levels of drinking in Islamic countries will therefore be another reason for lower levels of rape - alcohol lowers normal levels of restraint.

SA has a big problem with rape - so too have some of the pacific islands and aborigines in Australia, and there is violence against women in the Maori community too. A common factor is alcohol, but also a macho culture and in many cases low economic achievement.

My perspective is that social ills will raise their ugly heads in every society if there aren't checks and balances. That is why we have laws and why every religion gives guidance/laws to it's adherents about what is right and wrong in terms of relations with the other gender and conduct towards others.

Self restraint and choosing to limit marital relations to the marital bed has beneficial effects on society - it de-objectifies women and de-cheapens the act of copulation. This set of morals is not unique to people who believe in religion - but it is a common factor of all religions. Perhaps there is something to this?

But finally on the subject, let me make it clear that it all boils down to personal choices and there are good and bad in all communities - all are human beings with the same physical and mental capacities. The environments will colour how we view acts and other peoples, but at the end of the day we make our choices where-ever we live or where-ever we happen to be born.

Cheers,
Shafique

I completely agree with you Shaf.

shafique wrote:

kanelli wrote:Well, there is also the fact that in some Islamic countries/states you can be beheaded for raping a woman - a deterrent not used in the Evil West. I wouldn't really call beheading or stoning people very civilised (but neither is the electric chair for that matter...)

Rape rates might be lower if you keep men and women segregated and cover the women up from head to toe, but then again - from my perspective, I enjoy being friends with men and dressing as I please. For me to avoid rape, I don't walk in bad areas alone at night, don't get into cars with strangers, don't get drunk and fool around with drunk men while on dates. So, I'd take equality and friendship with the majority of men who are decent men, over segregation and limitations on my rights in order to protect me from what is only a small percentage of men who rape.

When it comes to war, it has been seen throughout history that armies have raped and pillaged. You train people to kill, put them in stressful conditions, and then wonder why atrocities are commited from time to time? Again, that is not an "American" phenomenon, it is a worldwide phenomenon throughout history in every conflict.

The most populous muslim country is Indonesia where women mix pretty much with complete freedom, but tend to wear headscarves and choose to act according to Muslim values when it comes to socialising between fun. Not segregation, but a preference to not fornicate.

The British Army prides itself on the discipline of it's troops. Raping of women to humiliate them would be an unthinkable sin for 99.9% of British troopers.

Armies are trained and can be trained well or trained badly. Rape was used as weapon in Bosnia and was heinous.

I'm surprised that the quote above seems to be justifiying or explaining the acts of the American GIs. I can't think of similar incidents carried out by Muslim soldiers - certainly not Al Qaeda or Hizbollah etc who if they are Muslim will see fornication as a sin.

I know it's uncomfortable to face unpleasant facts about one's own culture and countrymen. When I refer to the UK and the 'West' I view these as my homeland and where relatives live. Having more rapists, divorcees, single parent families etc etc does not make the West totally bad - but is a reflection of the social mores that are becoming more prevalent and causing children and women to be less safe now than they have been in the past.


Cheers,
Shafique

for ur info Indonesian muslims atleast 80% of em follow variant form of islam called adhat which is really different from the orthodox one. this is one of the reason there was conflict between indonesia and aceh.

Well Iraqis were muslim soldiers and they did heinous crimes against kuwaiti women u can read in "matrys day" book

Indonesian muslims (I know many) follow orthodox Islam - no difference from that practiced in the UAE etc. Adhat/adat and pincsali (sp?) are sets of laws/rules which are followed by some provinces.. the religion that people follow is Islam and their actions are in accordance with this.

(The main area of differences that people point to is the treatment of women in Indonesia vs that of Saudi - this has little to do with religion and more to do with culture. Sometimes this distinction get's blurred by non-Muslims and even some muslims)

Most of the stories of alleged atrocities by Iraqi soldiers in Kuwait have been shown to be fabrications - rapes etc of women, just not true. Similarly the stories of looting of hospitals, unplugging of incubators with babies in them and stealing the incubators... all later disproved as false reporting.

Cheers,
Shafique

I am not sure about Kuwait, but I think I had posted before about the confirmed rapes of Iraqi women by Iraqi men when Saddam was toppled and there was a period of complete lawlessness.

Not surprised at the rape as weapon/torture by Iraqi military against Iraqi women - these guys were secular and ruthless. One of the reasons Osama bin Laden was against Saddam's regime.

However, rape by the ordinary soldiers in Kuwait has not been proven but was misinformation.

Actually, it is hard to tell who was military actually because they had fled the coalition forces and didn't wear their uniforms anymore - had started to blend into the population.

rape and other horrible things happen in a war sadams armny did it in kuwait so did bushs army who r doing it in IRAQ. there r bad ppl in every society. no society in todays world is perfect lol nothing in this world is perfect ask urself whoever is reading this ARE YOU PERFECT? worst thing is that muslims they will deny this happening cos we are muslims and we wouldnt do such things like this sorry but this thinking has to change NOT all muslims are like that and i m sure not all AMERICANS OR BRITISH are like that. But if ppl do these things punish them with the evidence provided. you got the photographs punish these ppl like america is punishing sadam.
america and UK is seen as the Devil because of the things they are doing i mean come on did i elect bush did i vote for tony "big ears" blair no i didnt not so y are they invading into afghanistan or iraq i mean who the hell are they.. lol liban bro i m a muslim i m with you all the way but to attack the american ppl is wrong not all are the same but the President of America and the PRimeMinister of England were elected by the PEOPLE so y not attack them :p
polictics is a dirty game politics will make promises and will do something.
Liban or anyone else in UAE or anywhere else in the world has problems with USA or England and their policies think how you would attack them. hmmm 3 options join a terrorist group 2nd option you sit and talk about it like u r rite now on dubaiforum and waste your time thinking and talking about it last option you do a boycott of all American and British products lol i know u ll laugh u ll go y should i give up my hardees y should i give up my pepsi lol ask your self mashallah am sure u got a nice job nice wage would it hurt you to boycott these products actions speak louder then words you can either go bomb pentagon or you could boycott products of USA and become an example of everyone to follow you Our Prophet became an example for everyone to follow y dont u you got the money you got a nice job try it rather then talking about it :p by the way i have given up on all american junk foods and drinks you dont believe me its ok but who knows maybe i ll become an example for my friends and my family to follow..... liban and other ppl who are against american policies try it see wot it feels like.... trust me u ll feel good you ll end up trying dishes from different parts of the world :p
the world doesnt revolve around USA and UK

I haven't read through the thread, but the pictures on Aztlan's website are fake.

yeh he could be right they could be fake who knows someone could have released it as a PROPOGANDA tool to stir up hatred against the americans
a picture will always show one thing but it will never SHOW you THE WHOLE THING.... these pics appeard on some p<3n websites how do you know they aint actors dressed up as american soilders and wana do a roleplay thing such as this :p come on it could happen
but on the other hand this thing could have happened especially after the Abu Gharib incident in Iraq and especially after Bush saying sorry to the IRAQi Public.... lol WHO KNOWS no one knows end of the day some wont believe wot cnn says and some wont believe wot al jazeera or any other arabic media will say.
end of the day you cant trust your own governments you cant trust the media .

rudeboy, I won't read any of your posts until you use proper sentences and punctuation.

kanelli wrote:rudeboy, I won't read any of your posts until you use proper sentences and punctuation.

Took the words right out of my keyboard

Concord wrote:

kanelli wrote:rudeboy, I won't read any of your posts until you use proper sentences and punctuation.

Took the words right out of my keyboard

so ur keyboard does the thinking and reading eh?

lol sorry didnt know i was attending an english class where i had to use mY commas and fullstops. thought it was forum where i could come and enjoy and let out things inside me. i guess i was wrong :p

rudeboy wrote:lol sorry didnt know i was attending an english class where i had to use mY commas and fullstops. thought it was forum where i could come and enjoy and let out things inside me. i guess i was wrong :p

rudeboy you really should take the time to read the posts and understand what people are telling you about your writing style and the reasons why they are telling you to change and have a bit of consideration for those that may want to take the time to read what you have to say before they conclude whether you actually have anything useful to contribute or are just graduating from using your phone keypad and or playstation or just a person who likes to play with himself and go on long rambling streams of conciousness like utterings which totally mystify the unfortunate people who take the time to read and seek to understand other peoples views and if you dont want to take this advice just understand that most people will only give you the benefit of the doubt a few times as just like me they will see a block of text and wont bother to read what you have to say when you post it therefore at the end of the day in conclusion and finally you have to decide whether you want to continue writing in a style that will result in no one reading your posts which will be a waste of your time i humbly submit to your good self take care and congratulations for getting to the end of this sentence and extra marks for you if you can read it out loud without pausing to take a breath

Well done Shaf.

If some people here are too lazy to communicate properly, then don't bother trying to communicate with us at all.

half of my posts have been deleted :S