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I'm done with the Politics, Philosophy and Religion Forum. It is full of too much bullshit.

shafique wrote:As for the collapse of the towers - they timed the first collapse and it took about 10 seconds, which is just a second more than a 'free fall' time - i.e.when it collapsed there was no resistance from the building structure below at all. Now, I'm not a structural engineer - but this is what experts on the day said made it look like it was a demolition (as it happened, US TV had engineers saying this - although they all later retracted the statements).


(I mean, do you believe they could find a Saudi Passport in the rubble a few hours later and believe that this passport survived the crash and was coincidentally that of a hijacker! ? C'mon. And if this isn't true....what else isn't true? Come to think of it...I need to check whether this story of the passport was retracted - I'm sure it isn't an urban legend as I recall the news story when it came out first time)

"[you] are not a structural engineer" - therein lies the answer. The 'retractions" you mention relate to statements made "that day". I would imagine that many licensed structural engineers (like myself) had questions as we saw the towers fall (with the naked eye!). I have no doubt about "why the towers fell" from an engineering point of view.

The "conspiracies" will not stop but as you sound like a intelligent person and not an "agitator" I leave it to the fact that you are not a structural engineer as the reason you have "doubts". We all need not understand everything in life. I know nothing about heart surgery but...

kanelli wrote:I'm done with the Politics, Philosophy and Religion Forum. It is full of too much bullshit.

K, its a lot of fun and I rub my passport everytime I read this forum!

Concord - I am intelligent, I like to think, and have argued voiciferously with people who espouse the theory that 9/11 was a conspiracy. It does not make sense that the US would instigate an attack on the WTC.

I therefore still believe that the twin towers were attacked by hijackers and that the combination of factors led to the collapse. I have seen the documentary stating all the assumptions from the consipiracy perspective for the demolition theory of the twin towers - I'm less than convinced, but have relayed what they say.

HOWEVER, that is not to say that some other aspects of 9/11 'smell' funny. For instance, I think it is not beyond the realms of possibility that United 93 was shot down rather than crash landed after passengers over-powered the hijackers. I would not condemn the action - but I can see why the authorities would like to cover it up.

The Pentagon crash is beyond me at this point - the conspiracy arguements are convincing, so I need to read the 'official' or counter-arguments for this particular aspect of 9/11.

Another 'fact' that doesn't sit well with me is the so-called fireproof passport - which I'm hoping is an urban legend.

Kanelli may have gone off in a huff - but I still think this was a useful thread to understand that there are differing views of the events of 9/11 and that the conspiracy theories aren't just based on wishful thinking but furnish arguments which on first reading looks pretty compelling.

I can see why people believe in the conspiracy, even though I don't myself agree with them. I think I'm warming to the idea that there was some spin and subterfuge, but can't see the evidence of a full-scale conspiracy.

(for the record, I do believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone and shot JFK and man did land on the moon )

Cheers,
Shafique

For the conspiracy theorists - http://www.911research.wtc7.net/index.html - or perhaps this is where the "evidence" comes from in the first place?

This site claims that airplanes did fly into the WTC towers, but then pretty much states that it was all a conspiracy. I'm sure you will enjoy it and have enough solid "facts" to support your hypothesis that US is the most devious country on the planet.

I try and not stereotype people.

I have a theory that if the government (of any country) actually want to hide something, they create a conspiracy that is partly based on truth but that is so overblown that people reject everything, including the bits which the government was guilty of. This is, of course, unless they are caught red-handed.

Instances where the US has been guilty of wrong-doings and tried to cover it up are well known and undisputed eg. Iran-Conta, various Cuba plots.

In my view, people are free to believe in what they like. If what they believe is stupid, wrong or just plain biased (eg. Jews drink the blood of Christian babies - German propaganda in the 30's), the answer is not to throw up our hands in and walk away, but to reason and counter with arguments and facts.

The greatest danger is when people believe blindly what one side or other says. Sure, some crackpots do not deserve the oxygen of publicity (eg. would you debate with guys who say the world is flat?) - but by and large, widely held views are normally based on a credible set of beliefs that are real for those holding them.

I'd be surprised if anyone on this forum believes that the US government NEVER spreads disinformation to it's populace. Once you agree that the US has lied, then all we are arguing about is the extent of this lying and whether it extends to the events of 9/11.

Some choose to believe that nothingl is as it seems, others follow the official line - and there are a spectrum of beliefs in between. I'm in the middle thinking something is fishy.

All that said - I think it's interesting that what universally everyone thinks is the work of less than 100people is having such an impact on the world!

Cheers,
Shafique

i just wanna say that after the september 11 cnn and other media especially in England dont know about usa werent there were talking alot about Mohammed Atta and other guys who were on the aeroplane that collided into WTC.... Did they find the passports of these terrorits from the WTC scene? well i think they did otherwise how else would they know who these guys were and which country they were from. funny thing is that the american authorities were able to find their passports after the aeroplanes collided into the Trade Centre and then when the Trade centre fell to the ground lol and they were still able to piece the torn and burnt pages of the Passport but they were never able to find the BLACK BOX which was in the Titanium the strongest metal... but in america i guess a paper has more chances of buring and then falling from sky then a metal like titanium has lol hahahha
does anyone know whether osama bin ladien is not a FBI agent lol for all we know he could be sitting in the white house or having it off with bushes wife lol
another thing anyone heard of remote control aeroplanes lol yeh the tiny small ones which in todays technology means boeing 777 to fly around without the need of a pilot.
does anyone know whether al qaeda exists or not does anyone know whether its not a American CIA or FBI agency which the President doesnt know about lol come on there are agencies which bush doesnt know they exist like area 77 i wonder if bush knows about terrorits from MARS lol
i could keep on going but just wanna say that after september 11 there have been 2 wars 1 in afghanistan to find osma did they find him NO 2nd war was in Iraq cos of Weapons of Mass destruction did they find that LOL HELL NO but yeh they did find sadam hmmm i guess they couldnt find weapons of mass destruction so y not cover it up by looking for sadam. hey look world we didnt find weapons of mass destruction but we found sadam lol is funny how they found sadam and not osama.... lol wots the difference between sadam and osama nothing both of they havve money they could have gone whereever they wanted to.... its realy funny how after 5 years they still cant find osama even when usa has the telescope which allows it to zoom into parts of the world. or maybe usa doesnt want to find osama yet maybe they want him to do something else something else after 5 years :p who knows maybe the guy could be dead for all i know is that we will keep on believeing wot CNN and western media will say. if they say there r bombs in iran then the muslim league will sit on their asses like they did when Usa attacked iraq cos it had weapons and do nothing... lol we muslims are at fault its our goverments who are at fault... we are too buzy getting reach that we dont care any more about our religion or our beliefs.... we have one thing that america wants OIL that is running out wot is next on the table NAtural Gas WHO has it funny thing is IRAN, Pakistan AND India have it. America will attack iran and start a war between pakistan and india which it has been doing so .. lol i know its funny you wont believe me i guess time will tell :p

rudeboy - your posts are difficult to read. Try using punctuation and paragraphs.

Cheers,
Shafique

Concord wrote:

sniper420 wrote: ..... give me some logical reasons of terrorizing....or the perceived solution those terrorists thought

On your first request, as I am not a terrorist so I wouldn't know. On your second request, you would have to ask the terrorist themselves with whom you seem to sympathize (please be sure to let us know their thougths).

it's for ppl like U who stop reasoning and free speech.... now if i stated another theory i become terrorist sympathizer!!!!!!!! holly kamolly... i havent yet seen the nova doc but seen other doc which is based on arnie's assumsion force destabilised building and it crashed.......heheeh u must be kidding moi yeah the layer were removed fromm the site were it was crashed but not under 50 m from the hit spot! the building was made to resist even earth quakes! If u say destabilising was the case then it would NEVER I repeat NEVER fall at free fall speed...yeah me and my buddies are more competent thanu think conc.....graduated form one of the best eng skools with dist. I am not providing the math cos many of u will yawn. those structural engineers involved in doc i am pretty sure they are afraid to speak out cos of losing their jobs and other repercussions.

another food 4 thought.......how did the hijackers overpower the pilots? there should have been some distress msgs ......oh please they no way had anyguns and the ipilot control room is access locked. U mean human shield? well they could have ample time to send distress msgs......when they found blackboxes the cia said 'nothing relevant' was found!

well those who are against conspiracy therories in this forum dont have any reasoning powere . otehr than arnie i didnt see conc or kanelli providing any reasoning!!!! All were like oh u are with those islamists......ah why would govn do that?

I am pretty sure govenment wasnt directly involved but intelligence groups who do anything inthe name of security and after 911 have gained too much power.

and concord for Lord's sakes my nick isnt snikes or spikes and stop whining.

kanelli wrote:. Of course there is no way that an airplaine full of fuel would ever create so much heat on impact and continued burning that could ever take down the towers. I mean, when the Trade Center towers were built the engineers though to themselves - "Well, what if someone rams huge airline jets into the buildings?" Also, there is no way that the hijackers would have plotted to hit such tall buildings in strategic spots - they would just hit any old place wouldn't they? So sorry, of course there is no such thing as terrorism. All Muslims are peaceful people. It is only Americans who are evil.

uae75 - last time I looked this forum was full of pro-Islam conspiracy theorists who would believe anything as long as it makes all Muslims come out like innocent, peaceful, pious people.

is this what u have kanelli .......call ppl islamic fudamentalists? u didnt even provide any logical science or reasoning in this WHOLE thread...whole time u were like you are traitor.......u shouldbe ashamed and other crap. U wont knoe gazillions of advantages certain ppl have in carrying out the plot. World trade center did have records of illegal financial dealings which were all lost, german firm found many illegal transactions were committed b4 wtc collapse. the CIA and other rich elite did gain loads of advantages in doing this. Ofcourse u wont even research cosin ur heart u believe all the govenment officials are there to protect citizens . read the declassified docs of intelligence u will find 80% of the offence as inhumane and unnecessary . there are so many things intelligence is hiding like CTV videos of pentagon crash which were confiscated by FBI and never released........yeah modifiedversions were released. the intelligence are most repressive groups of any gov which save from any repercussions. I feel ashamed to call u a canadian to bash ppl to beleive in something u dont......u must b ashamed of urself

yeah go threathen me , pm admin or call me a troll...i stand by my claims.

can someone tell me wot is a terrorist? someone who is fighting for his country is he a freedom fighter or a terrorist? if someone blows himself to make a statement saying "please leave our country and we will keep on fighting against you till the day you leave" are they called terrorist or freedom fighters?

rudeboy...you seem to have a lot to say of how lazy muslims are....


so tell me exactly - what have you done to help out your brothers and sisters? did you go and fight in iraq, afghanistan, palestine, lebanon...are you willing to go and fight in iran, if and when a war takes place?

you asking me to do a jihaad :p there are ways of doing jihaad. you can go and fight against an enemy. no i m not going to go and fight against america but i m going to use my wealth my knowledge against US. i know you will think its funny but i have boycotted from using products to do anything to do with america... no more pepsi coke no more junk foods.. i know i m just one person and what will i make a difference to american economies. but what will be the difference between US and me if i went to war... hmm nothing we both will become murderers.

yeh i do have a lot on my mind especially how i m frustrated to see how the west treats Muslims and i m even more frustrated to see how muslims have a divide amongst each other. i m frustrated but that doesnt mean that i will go and blow myself suicide is forbidden in Islam because Islam promotes peace yeh if your Religion, Country or Home , Family is attacked upon then thats when you do Jihaad. and individuals like me and you shouldnt be doing jihaad our governments our leaders are the ones who should be fighting for us.

you asking me to do a jihaad :p there are ways of doing jihaad. you can go and fight against an enemy. no i m not going to go and fight against america but i m going to use my wealth my knowledge against US. i know you will think its funny but i have boycotted from using products to do anything to do with america... no more pepsi coke no more junk foods.. i know i m just one person and what will i make a difference to american economies. but what will be the difference between US and me if i went to war... hmm nothing we both will become murderers.

yeh i do have a lot on my mind especially how i m frustrated to see how the west treats Muslims and i m even more frustrated to see how muslims have a divide amongst each other. i m frustrated but that doesnt mean that i will go and blow myself suicide is forbidden in Islam because Islam promotes peace yeh if your Religion, Country or Home , Family is attacked upon then thats when you do Jihaad. and individuals like me and you shouldnt be doing jihaad our governments our leaders are the ones who should be fighting for us.

bushra i am boycotting the use of american products thats my jihaad... i know you will find it funny and think wot difference would one person make to american economy. but have you thought that i might become an example to someone on dubaiforums reading this right now who might like my idea and end up doing the same thing and who knows slowly slowly the numbers will pick up. you have tried fighting against them you have tried talking with them y not do what i m doing... will it hurt you to give up coke hmmm there are other subsitute products like water hmm not so sweet :p there are juices available out there. y eat macdonnalds try a dish from other parts of the world. try arabic try asian try pakistani or indian dish lol or so called curry who knows you might end up liking it.... am not going to force you to follow me i m just telling you what my "jihaad" is

just wanna say that OUR prophet PBUH was an example for the rest of us and thats y islam spred and still is spreading. so y not do what i m doing, become an example for your friends your families eventually your friends families and their friends and so on would end up doing what you are doing.....

try it

sniper420 wrote:

kanelli wrote:. Of course there is no way that an airplaine full of fuel would ever create so much heat on impact and continued burning that could ever take down the towers. I mean, when the Trade Center towers were built the engineers though to themselves - "Well, what if someone rams huge airline jets into the buildings?" Also, there is no way that the hijackers would have plotted to hit such tall buildings in strategic spots - they would just hit any old place wouldn't they? So sorry, of course there is no such thing as terrorism. All Muslims are peaceful people. It is only Americans who are evil.

uae75 - last time I looked this forum was full of pro-Islam conspiracy theorists who would believe anything as long as it makes all Muslims come out like innocent, peaceful, pious people.

is this what u have kanelli .......call ppl islamic fudamentalists? u didnt even provide any logical science or reasoning in this WHOLE thread...whole time u were like you are traitor.......u shouldbe ashamed and other crap. U wont knoe gazillions of advantages certain ppl have in carrying out the plot. World trade center did have records of illegal financial dealings which were all lost, german firm found many illegal transactions were committed b4 wtc collapse. the CIA and other rich elite did gain loads of advantages in doing this. Ofcourse u wont even research cosin ur heart u believe all the govenment officials are there to protect citizens . read the declassified docs of intelligence u will find 80% of the offence as inhumane and unnecessary . there are so many things intelligence is hiding like CTV videos of pentagon crash which were confiscated by FBI and never released........yeah modifiedversions were released. the intelligence are most repressive groups of any gov which save from any repercussions. I feel ashamed to call u a canadian to bash ppl to beleive in something u dont......u must b ashamed of urself

yeah go threathen me , pm admin or call me a troll...i stand by my claims.

What the hell are you rambling on about? Have you been drinking or something?

rudeboy wrote:you asking me to do a jihaad :p there are ways of doing jihaad. you can go and fight against an enemy. no i m not going to go and fight against america but i m going to use my wealth my knowledge against US. i know you will think its funny but i have boycotted from using products to do anything to do with america... no more pepsi coke no more junk foods.. i know i m just one person and what will i make a difference to american economies. but what will be the difference between US and me if i went to war... hmm nothing we both will become murderers.

yeh i do have a lot on my mind especially how i m frustrated to see how the west treats Muslims and i m even more frustrated to see how muslims have a divide amongst each other. i m frustrated but that doesnt mean that i will go and blow myself suicide is forbidden in Islam because Islam promotes peace yeh if your Religion, Country or Home , Family is attacked upon then thats when you do Jihaad. and individuals like me and you shouldnt be doing jihaad our governments our leaders are the ones who should be fighting for us.

bushra i am boycotting the use of american products thats my jihaad... i know you will find it funny and think wot difference would one person make to american economy. but have you thought that i might become an example to someone on dubaiforums reading this right now who might like my idea and end up doing the same thing and who knows slowly slowly the numbers will pick up. you have tried fighting against them you have tried talking with them y not do what i m doing... will it hurt you to give up coke hmmm there are other subsitute products like water hmm not so sweet :p there are juices available out there. y eat macdonnalds try a dish from other parts of the world. try arabic try asian try pakistani or indian dish lol or so called curry who knows you might end up liking it.... am not going to force you to follow me i m just telling you what my "jihaad" is

just wanna say that OUR prophet PBUH was an example for the rest of us and thats y islam spred and still is spreading. so y not do what i m doing, become an example for your friends your families eventually your friends families and their friends and so on would end up doing what you are doing.....

try it

i never asked you to blow yourself up. i just got sick of you complaining about how the muslims countries are doing nothing and all you were doing is sitting and typing on a computer about how you are dis gusted with them. people have been doing this 'boycotting' that you are saying you do for quite some time now....has it been working? you need to take more action. if you really are so concerned about your other musilm brothers and sisters, get off your lazy bumm and fight with them. side by side, hand in hand. because lets face it, this boycotting system you have going on....its not going to work.

Why don't you guys try working with Muslim political lobby groups in the US or elsewhere where the people can influence the government. Those lobby groups seem to be successful for other lobby groups. Also, what about helping with education about religious tolerance and making people more critical about the propaganda coming from all directions? How about choosing to work with Palestinian and Israeli groups that are also looking for a peaceful solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict. Those are all political and peaceful ways to fight the injustices. There is no need to consider violent measures, as that should be an absolute last resort.

kanelli wrote:Why don't you guys try working with Muslim political lobby groups in the US or elsewhere where the people can influence the government. Those lobby groups seem to be successful for other lobby groups. Also, what about helping with education about religious tolerance and making people more critical about the propaganda coming from all directions? How about choosing to work with Palestinian and Israeli groups that are also looking for a peaceful solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict. Those are all political and peaceful ways to fight the injustices. There is no need to consider violent measures, as that should be an absolute last resort.

yes yes, your a very right...violence should be taken as a last resort.


ive just been all for fighting these past couple days....

shame on me. lol

kanelli wrote:Why don't you guys try working with Muslim political lobby groups in the US or elsewhere where the people can influence the government. Those lobby groups seem to be successful for other lobby groups. Also, what about helping with education about religious tolerance and making people more critical about the propaganda coming from all directions? How about choosing to work with Palestinian and Israeli groups that are also looking for a peaceful solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict. Those are all political and peaceful ways to fight the injustices. There is no need to consider violent measures, as that should be an absolute last resort.

yeah yeah kanelli it's so easy to put these in words.......how long did it take Jews to finally get recognized by Europeans.....they were discriminated over 2 centuries so they specialized on some jobs ........after holocaust they ran away from europe cam eto america and used their skills to establish business then gain political support. yeah most of the muslim countries i know indonesia, bangladesh, and muslims in india promote tolerance mainly sufism exists there. yeah palestinain arabs started suicide bombing after 35 yrs of silence of extermination....that doesnt mean i support their ways but they were frustrated. Internatinal communities copoetely ignored em until Munich massacre.

yeah yeah it's easy to dictate terms......how many years did it take Americans to really implement "all are born equal" in american declaration of independence? just in 60's there were segregated seats and just a year the katrina thing. I guess there is a lot of bias inside our government (West) and still think we are better than them (white man's burden) at the sametime governments in muslim countries are weak corrupted , squandering their wealth, bereaucratic and authoritarian.

Why was my post deleted???