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Dear sir/Madams
Brutal Israel with its hatred and filth, have committed atrocities in Lebanon for ALL to see with total impunity. This was never to be done if it was NOT with the moral, military and political help of the US.
If we consider that the American Government was elected by the people, then it is definite that they are responsible about these acts of savagery and brutality against civilians in Lebanon.

I argue that every American is responsible for what his government is doing. They are liable.

What is your opinion on this?

Kanan, feel good now? Well, good for you!!!!!

kanan wrote:Dear sir/Madams
Brutal Israel with its hatred and filth, have committed atrocities in Lebanon for ALL to see with total impunity. This was never to be done if it was NOT with the moral, military and political help of the US.
If we consider that the American Government was elected by the people, then it is definite that they are responsible about these acts of savagery and brutality against civilians in Lebanon.

I argue that every American is responsible for what his government is doing. They are liable.

What is your opinion on this?

well my opinion is that things r kind of mixed up in ur head-no ofense-
how can u blame it on "every American"???OMG how can u point at all the americans as being responable for what the crap US GOV is doing? not everybody voted for Bush, not all americans support the GOV!!!
i think that ur way of percieving the facts is a bit mistaken.

Have to agree with Alexandra, you cannot blame and entire nation for the actions of a few, just as we do not blame all muslims for a few suicide bombers.

49% did not vote for Bush - that's nearly half the population and probably more considering those who were not allowed to vote (as they would have voted against him).

You cannot brand one human being for the actions of another.

Oh great, another hater on this forum. That's all we need.

As I said in another thread 'The trolls are out in force today!'.

i do agree with what alex has to say but the brutal fact is americans can make difference on political level, and in their government administration


am not saying americans are to be blame for what killing take place anywhere due to some US or other foreign policy, however, americans have to show more sympathy as some don't even seem to care or they might have been brain washed via their government made media...


i can take any argument but no one can change my thinking on this subject most particularly...

Faris

As has been said in another thread, how you expect 'some' americans to care what is going on in other parts of the world, when they don't even care about what's happening in their own back yard?

There are many people in many different countries who know nothing about other places in the world and nothing about the doings of their own government. The US is no exception. Some of you seem to think the US is the only place where this happens.

There are people in the US and UK etc. who are marching and petitioning their elected leaders to stop Israel's assault on Lebanon. Not every American or Westerner is unsympathetic and sitting on his/her ass doing nothing.

here are people in the US and UK etc. who are marching and petitioning their elected leaders to stop Israel's assault on Lebanon.

yes very few thank goodness
stop whining

kanan wrote:Dear sir/Madams
Brutal Israel with its hatred and filth, have committed atrocities in Lebanon for ALL to see with total impunity. This was never to be done if it was NOT with the moral, military and political help of the US.
If we consider that the American Government was elected by the people, then it is definite that they are responsible about these acts of savagery and brutality against civilians in Lebanon.

I argue that every American is responsible for what his government is doing. They are liable.

What is your opinion on this?

politicians represent the masses only until they get their vote. and as i said before, politics is about interests, speculations and manipulation, certanly not about helping others.
sad, but true.

very true Raidah esp so in the UK

[quote="PhDFares"]i AMERICANS have to show more sympathy as some don't even seem to care or they might have been brain washed via their government made media...


You have a very bad bias view of AMERICANS but that is very understandable seeing where you live and your life style, your envy is something westerners have come to understand and find very amusing do you not know there is a war on

After reading all, well, a majority of the posts in this section Ive come to the realization that it never ends. I mean, one person is putting blame on Americans for being unsympathetic and ignorant, while another is blaming Israelies for being heartless, another placing all Muslims under a single title of being 'terrorists', and the list could go on. Some blame the media for brainwashing while other refuse to admit that it even plays a role in how someone views the world. It just seems to me that you all are, well some are, arguing over something (war, disputes, what may you) and not really doing anything about it yourselves. I read somewhere that someone posted about Arabs not doing anything for their other arab brothers except for complain about being called terrorists...well, what are you doing to change it? Perhaps you are not an arab, but what are you doing to better the world besides complain and moan about things you dont like. Honestly. Changing the way people view you, if it bothers you (which it seems to me it does bother most) is your job and your job alone, and sitting on your notebook or pc complaining about it isn't going to do you any good. I for one am sick of those who place blame on others because they cannot 'grow a pair'. I do not agree with the actions some muslims are taking (UK incident) however, i dont go and blame others for leading them to take those actions. You cannot place 100% blame on Americans for actions Israel is taking. You cannot place 100% blame on the UK for the actions that were to take place by the Pakistanis (i believe they were, if im wrong, forgive me). You cannot place 100% blame on Hezbolla either.

Grow up people; you cannot go around blaming others for things if you dont do anything to help change the way things work. If you dont do anything, just blame yourself.


Im sorry if I am being a bit harsh, but thats how it came out. I didnt mean to offend anyone, if I did, my apologies, just take what I wrote for what it is. Again, sorry to all those who may have been offended...

Good post Bushra.

I agree that we should not go around blaming a whole people for the actions of nation states or groups of its citizens.

I agree that it is unfair to brand all Americans as supporters of Israel and behind the injustices in the Middle East.

However, it is always worth looking (and more importantly, LISTENING) to the grievances and trying to ascertain the causes. This leads to solutions.

You point out that finger pointing and hurling accusations achieves nothing but more misery and more violence. Each side believes they are right and aren't listening to the other side.

Israel wants, it says, peace and security within it's borders.

The Arab world has effectively now agreed that Israel has a right to exist within the 1967 borders.

The UN has ordered Israel to stop illegally occupying foreign land and go back to the 1967 borders.

The Palestinians/Lebanese/Syrians etc all want UN resolutions to be implemented and for there to be a viable Palestinian state, free from injustice.

It is rich of Israel, many think, to bomb the infrastructure of the Palestinian authority and then blame them for not imposing peace in Gaza. How ridiculous was it when they pinned in Arafat to his compound, and then blamed him for not controlling the militants?

The grievances against Israel stem from it's defiance of UN resolutions and continuing use of military force to subjugate people. The military power is 100% underwritten by the US. There is a direct link between Israeli actions and US approval - the US regularly comments on actions taken by Israel and says they agree with them. The US actively uses it's veto to stem worldwide criticism of Israel.

Therefore, most (if not all), objective commentators say that the injustices in the Middle East conflicts are primarily on the part of Israel and the US - they are the ones with the power and the ones mis-using the power against International Law and against the International Communities wishes and demands (as highlighted by the UN resolutions).

Sort out the Palestinian issue - and you remove a major cause of conflict in the world.

It's not really an "Islam vs West" issue - it's a conflict of a state defying international law, supported by the US and oppressing the native people of the land - it's a primeval struggle for birth-rights and human rights. It is convenient to label this as 'Islamic Terrorism vs Western Democracy' but the facade has been blown away when we realise that Israel has attacked two democracies (PNA and Lebanon).

From my perspective it all comes down to fairness and justice - where there is a lack of these, there will be grievances which will just foment trouble.

Just my 2 penneth worth.. thanks for reading..

Cheers,
Shafique

bushra21 wrote:After reading all,.......


Im sorry if I am being a bit harsh, but thats how it came out. I didnt mean to offend anyone, if I did, my apologies, just take what I wrote for what it is. Again, sorry to all those who may have been offended...

none offense taken, i fully back you up, but itn't that true, that is so healthy aspect for your brain to speak your heart, no matter how brutal that or this fact seems not for the purpose of just aruging, but to picture what others got to say... i believe its healthy

bushra21 wrote:After reading all, well, a majority of the posts in this section Ive come to the realization that it never ends. I mean, one person is putting blame on Americans for being unsympathetic and ignorant, while another is blaming Israelies for being heartless, another placing all Muslims under a single title of being 'terrorists', and the list could go on. Some blame the media for brainwashing while other refuse to admit that it even plays a role in how someone views the world. It just seems to me that you all are, well some are, arguing over something (war, disputes, what may you) and not really doing anything about it yourselves. I read somewhere that someone posted about Arabs not doing anything for their other arab brothers except for complain about being called terrorists...well, what are you doing to change it? Perhaps you are not an arab, but what are you doing to better the world besides complain and moan about things you dont like. Honestly. Changing the way people view you, if it bothers you (which it seems to me it does bother most) is your job and your job alone, and sitting on your notebook or pc complaining about it isn't going to do you any good. I for one am sick of those who place blame on others because they cannot 'grow a pair'. I do not agree with the actions some muslims are taking (UK incident) however, i dont go and blame others for leading them to take those actions. You cannot place 100% blame on Americans for actions Israel is taking. You cannot place 100% blame on the UK for the actions that were to take place by the Pakistanis (i believe they were, if im wrong, forgive me). You cannot place 100% blame on Hezbolla either.

Grow up people; you cannot go around blaming others for things if you dont do anything to help change the way things work. If you dont do anything, just blame yourself.


Im sorry if I am being a bit harsh, but thats how it came out. I didnt mean to offend anyone, if I did, my apologies, just take what I wrote for what it is. Again, sorry to all those who may have been offended...

If I am not mistaken you stated in another thread that you anly 19. Great stuff - There is still hope...

I found this Letter to the Editor in yesterday's 7 Days very insightful.

------------------------------------------------------------
The extremists are winning. Many of us in the West believe everything our governments say about Islamic terrorism. We stand by and do nothing when they raid innocent Muslim homes and shoot innocent Muslims in the process. We accept, like sheep, the hideous lie that terrorism lurks in every Muslim area of countries like the UK - because that is what our governments whisper to us by their policies.

We sleep walk our way into institutionalised racism. On the other hand there are ordinary Muslims who now believe that no Muslim has ever perpetrated an act of terror, and that Al Qaeda, the Taliban and extremist nutcases on the fringes of the Islamic faith are Western plants or figments of Bush and Blair’s imagination.

The truth is that ordinary people, Westerners and Muslims who live in cities like Dubai, side by side in peace, are being set at each other’s throats. The extremists, like I said, on both sides, are winning.

Saddened
Dubai
------------------------------------------------------------

kanelli wrote:I found this Letter to the Editor in yesterday's 7 Days very insightful.

------------------------------------------------------------
The extremists are winning. Many of us in the West believe everything our governments say about Islamic terrorism. We stand by and do nothing when they raid innocent Muslim homes and shoot innocent Muslims in the process. We accept, like sheep, the hideous lie that terrorism lurks in every Muslim area of countries like the UK - because that is what our governments whisper to us by their policies.

We sleep walk our way into institutionalised racism. On the other hand there are ordinary Muslims who now believe that no Muslim has ever perpetrated an act of terror, and that Al Qaeda, the Taliban and extremist nutcases on the fringes of the Islamic faith are Western plants or figments of Bush and Blair’s imagination.

The truth is that ordinary people, Westerners and Muslims who live in cities like Dubai, side by side in peace, are being set at each other’s throats. The extremists, like I said, on both sides, are winning.

Saddened
Dubai
------------------------------------------------------------

This is a very interesting, and an impartial observation from a person who really understands whats really going on in this world.

alexandra wrote:

kanan wrote:Dear sir/Madams
Brutal Israel with its hatred and filth, have committed atrocities in Lebanon for ALL to see with total impunity. This was never to be done if it was NOT with the moral, military and political help of the US.
If we consider that the American Government was elected by the people, then it is definite that they are responsible about these acts of savagery and brutality against civilians in Lebanon.

I argue that every American is responsible for what his government is doing. They are liable.

What is your opinion on this?

well my opinion is that things r kind of mixed up in ur head-no ofense-
how can u blame it on "every American"???OMG how can u point at all the americans as being responable for what the crap US GOV is doing? not everybody voted for Bush, not all americans support the GOV!!!
i think that ur way of percieving the facts is a bit mistaken.

if u use ur logic than why should all the lebanese ppl should suffer the war ? Isreal blamed all the Lebanese for selecting Hezbollah in the government. Polls did show strong suport from american ppl for the war. I know there are ppl who opposed but in the end of the day majority wins and the minority is included under the umbrella of being culprit.

sniper420 wrote:

alexandra wrote:

kanan wrote:Dear sir/Madams
Brutal Israel with its hatred and filth, have committed atrocities in Lebanon for ALL to see with total impunity. This was never to be done if it was NOT with the moral, military and political help of the US.
If we consider that the American Government was elected by the people, then it is definite that they are responsible about these acts of savagery and brutality against civilians in Lebanon.

I argue that every American is responsible for what his government is doing. They are liable.

What is your opinion on this?

well my opinion is that things r kind of mixed up in ur head-no ofense-
how can u blame it on "every American"???OMG how can u point at all the americans as being responable for what the crap US GOV is doing? not everybody voted for Bush, not all americans support the GOV!!!
i think that ur way of percieving the facts is a bit mistaken.

if u use ur logic than why should all the lebanese ppl should suffer the war ? Isreal blamed all the Lebanese for selecting Hezbollah in the government. Polls did show strong suport from american ppl for the war. I know there are ppl who opposed but in the end of the day majority wins and the minority is included under the umbrella of being culprit.

Very interesting point of view.

Chocoholic wrote:As has been said in another thread, how you expect 'some' americans to care what is going on in other parts of the world, when they don't even care about what's happening in their own back yard?

I got your point, only it seems you didn't get mine, what i was aiming at is:

1- It is true that there are terrorists among muslims (similarly with other non muslims dominations) but if you analyze BUSH speeches you will never find such racist expression as he used when addressing (involved) muslims, in short Bush could have used other term than 'islamic fascism', and 'Crusaders' ? agree ?

2- If I hear this expression from normal citizen, i would care LESS, but when this statement comes from president who run country with 300 million population out of which 5% are muslims (one out of every 20)

Don't you see problem with that? how you expect them to live in harmony? i believe it create unhealhty environment among its people

sniper420 wrote:

alexandra wrote:

kanan wrote:Dear sir/Madams
Brutal Israel with its hatred and filth, have committed atrocities in Lebanon for ALL to see with total impunity. This was never to be done if it was NOT with the moral, military and political help of the US.
If we consider that the American Government was elected by the people, then it is definite that they are responsible about these acts of savagery and brutality against civilians in Lebanon.

I argue that every American is responsible for what his government is doing. They are liable.

What is your opinion on this?

well my opinion is that things r kind of mixed up in ur head-no ofense-
how can u blame it on "every American"???OMG how can u point at all the americans as being responable for what the crap US GOV is doing? not everybody voted for Bush, not all americans support the GOV!!!
i think that ur way of percieving the facts is a bit mistaken.

if u use ur logic than why should all the lebanese ppl should suffer the war ? Isreal blamed all the Lebanese for selecting Hezbollah in the government. Polls did show strong suport from american ppl for the war. I know there are ppl who opposed but in the end of the day majority wins and the minority is included under the umbrella of being culprit.

sniper,
i think u missed my point of view or maybe i was not clear enough! let me clear it up a bit:
our friend in here (who started the thread)made some pretty hard accusations: he saied that All americans r to be blamed for what is hapening and sorry to argue but although the majority did vote for G.Bush(sorry that i do not have the info about the percentage in election) not ALL did. my point is that not always the majority is right!
and one more thing: i suspect that many of them were manipulated by media (that is a powerfull tool) in the campaign and they were drifted in an "electoral" euphoria! i might be wrong but this is just one personal opinion!

you know its funny how ppl will always blame their problems on other oh i didnt do this oh he did that or she did this lol y cannt us MUSLIMS WAKE UP and blame ourselves for wots happening lol wot is the MUSLIM LEAGUE for lol did anyone of u knew of its existence wot is happening in iraq afghanistan palestine lebanon and iran is happening cos of US not USA but us we didnt go to bush hey we will stop providing you with oil unless you do this for us DID stop instead of blaming other ppls governments blame OURS lol USA and ISREAL may be friends but who is IRAQs friend who is LEBANONs friend lol they dont have friends friends good enough to defend them... thats wot friends are for right something happens to you a good friend will defend you.. who is defending Lebanon who is defending Palestine and WHO defended IRAQ NO1 and no1 will never because we got the oil and as long as some body is buying it we are happy
lol

rudeboy wrote:you know its funny how ppl will always blame their problems on other oh i didnt do this oh he did that or she did this lol y cannt us MUSLIMS WAKE UP and blame ourselves for wots happening lol wot is the MUSLIM LEAGUE for lol did anyone of u knew of its existence wot is happening in iraq afghanistan palestine lebanon and iran is happening cos of US not USA but us we didnt go to bush hey we will stop providing you with oil unless you do this for us DID stop instead of blaming other ppls governments blame OURS lol USA and ISREAL may be friends but who is IRAQs friend who is LEBANONs friend lol they dont have friends friends good enough to defend them... thats wot friends are for right something happens to you a good friend will defend you.. who is defending Lebanon who is defending Palestine and WHO defended IRAQ NO1 and no1 will never because we got the oil and as long as some body is buying it we are happy
lol

Can you tell me exactly what you are trying to say??

Thank you

alexandra wrote:

sniper420 wrote:

alexandra wrote:

kanan wrote:Dear sir/Madams
Brutal Israel with its hatred and filth, have committed atrocities in Lebanon for ALL to see with total impunity. This was never to be done if it was NOT with the moral, military and political help of the US.
If we consider that the American Government was elected by the people, then it is definite that they are responsible about these acts of savagery and brutality against civilians in Lebanon.

I argue that every American is responsible for what his government is doing. They are liable.

What is your opinion on this?

well my opinion is that things r kind of mixed up in ur head-no ofense-
how can u blame it on "every American"???OMG how can u point at all the americans as being responable for what the crap US GOV is doing? not everybody voted for Bush, not all americans support the GOV!!!
i think that ur way of percieving the facts is a bit mistaken.

if u use ur logic than why should all the lebanese ppl should suffer the war ? Isreal blamed all the Lebanese for selecting Hezbollah in the government. Polls did show strong suport from american ppl for the war. I know there are ppl who opposed but in the end of the day majority wins and the minority is included under the umbrella of being culprit.

sniper,
i think u missed my point of view or maybe i was not clear enough! let me clear it up a bit:
our friend in here (who started the thread)made some pretty hard accusations: he saied that All americans r to be blamed for what is hapening and sorry to argue but although the majority did vote for G.Bush(sorry that i do not have the info about the percentage in election) not ALL did. my point is that not always the majority is right!
and one more thing: i suspect that many of them were manipulated by media (that is a powerfull tool) in the campaign and they were drifted in an "electoral" euphoria! i might be wrong but this is just one personal opinion!

my bad.......agreed

rudeboy wrote:you know its funny how ppl will always blame their problems on other oh i didnt do this oh he did that or she did this lol y cannt us MUSLIMS WAKE UP and blame ourselves for wots happening lol wot is the MUSLIM LEAGUE for lol did anyone of u knew of its existence wot is happening in iraq afghanistan palestine lebanon and iran is happening cos of US not USA but us we didnt go to bush hey we will stop providing you with oil unless you do this for us DID stop instead of blaming other ppls governments blame OURS lol USA and ISREAL may be friends but who is IRAQs friend who is LEBANONs friend lol they dont have friends friends good enough to defend them... thats wot friends are for right something happens to you a good friend will defend you.. who is defending Lebanon who is defending Palestine and WHO defended IRAQ NO1 and no1 will never because we got the oil and as long as some body is buying it we are happy
lol

is 'lol' the way you stop a sentence? because if it is, i think i should introduce you to the period (look to the end of the arrow)-----> .

besides that, from what i understood -- i agree. we muslims complain so much but very rarely do we ever actually do anything. but honestly...how many others take the same actions, or lack of as we (muslims) are.

however! not all muslims/arabs are the same. i mean, look at the palestinians....

bushra didnt know i was attending an english class or something so i didnt know that i had to use period all the time. but point noted and i shall do so next time. what are the palestines doing?

lol :p dont ask your self what the palestines doing and this is EXACTLY what i mean we are muslims there shouldnt be a divide between us you should be asking your self what is SAUDI ARABIA doing what is KUWAIT doing what is lebanon doing what are the rest of the Islamic country doing when a country like Israel bombs Palestine kills all the children men and women and this is for all other countries around the world. WHAT ARE ALL THE Islamic countries doing for atrocities happening in IRAQ, Afghanistan, Kashmir, Palestine and parts of Africa. lol if you ask me we aint doing nothing we are just sitting here and talking about it. our government the politicians we have elected are doing nothing to defend our muslim brothers and sisters in IRAQ afghanistan and so on. What is the Islamic League doing for Israel attacks on Lebanon n palestine y isnt it sanctioning or stop providing oil to USA in return for peace in palestine and other parts of the world.
we and our government is doing nothing trust me we are not doing anything we all are puppets of USA. we will go to camp david and in front of the media show the world how to shake hands with the isreals prime minister. we will sit on long tables and talk with our counterpart politicians.
those WHO do something are labelled as TERRorists lol

well, did you ever think of the possibility that the rulers of those countries are doing what they think is in the best interest for the people of their country? also....its politics, or have you not realized that yet? just because we are muslims/arabs does not mean that we are exempt from having to deal with the political system and its awful awful ways.

i agree....we (muslims/arabs) should be more hands on when coming to the aide of fellow muslims/arabs...however, sometimes, it is just not possible -- whether it be for the safety of the inhabitants of that country, or the political system, or whatever reason that you and i are unaware of.

so you are saying that when IRAQ or Afghanistan gets bombed none of the Islamic countries will stand up against America. hmmm they didnt . But you saying they didnt because THEY THOUGHT about themselves before rather then thinking about their brothers and sisters in IRAQ and Afghanistan. hmmm come on we can stand against them if USA attacks IRAN tommorow Saudi together with all the Islamic countries can attack USA ok not through our arsenal but why not stop the oil supplies to USA like how USA and the UN sanctioned IRAQ, IRAN and other Islamic countries.... see the answer is WE dont want to we are scared and we will be bullied into doing something we dont want to. Majority of the people in the islamic world would want to fight against usa but simply our politicans dont want to cos they too busy earning the dollars from america...
Pakistan was bullied into joining the war against terrorist and so were other islamic countries cos remember bush saying something like "You either Join us or you join them".... by joing with USA we gave our souls away to the devil. am just thinking what if pakistan had said no we will not join you, hmmm would America attack a Nuclear Power like Pakistan :p lol wots the point of the nuclear bomb when you ll be giving into the demands of a bully... end of the day we all gave into america and helped america attack afghanistan helped america attack iraq we sat there and watched 2 wars happen people got killed and we did NOThing oh sorry we did do something about it we posted on dubaiforums thats it
when islam had started was there a divide amongst the muslims were there different states or countries like there are now. hmm there werent any divides maybe thats y islam spred so fast and so far and thats y it was so feard amongst the romans at that time... stop blaming america helping Isreal blame your self blame yourself that you dont have friends like America who you can rely on blame your islamic neighbours for not helping you when you were attack blame your islamic neighbours for thinking about them selves rather then thinking about you blame your self for creating divides amongst muslims..doing point fingers at others ask yourself what did your country do when iraq or afghanistan was attacked? oh yeh do blame yourself cos the politicans running our countries were elected by you and me only we can remove them