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Police investigate

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hamp ... 786083.stm

Yeah I was reading that last night. Exactly my point about a whole group of people being targetted because of the actions of a few - on all sides I might add. Tragic really.

Sadly I feel it will only get worse. Investigators are now looking into around another 30 plots targeting civilians in the UK. What is the world coming to.

I can't help feeling 'cry wolf?' given the track record of similar grandiose announcements of widespread consipiracies.

After 9/11 there were a spate of high profile arrests in the UK (I almost said 'here in the UK' ! scary) - eg Ricin plot, at least 4 separate arrests of groups of British youth of Pakistani origin - all high profile, all linked to Al Qaeda at the time etc.

Then over the ensuing months, quite quietly, all these people were released without trial or any evidence of the initial accusations. The only people really arrested were criminals who had actually committed crimes and nothing to do with 'terrorism' per se.

The timing of these revelations/arrests is conventient for those who want Lebanon off the headlines.. and enough for me to go "hmmm".

As for reports of links to Al Qaeda - I encourage people to watch the Power of Nightmares to see what this actually means. Al Qaeda is defined as a web of loosely connected 'cells' who do not take orders from a central source. They share a 'common purpose', but operate as independent cells.

Now - this is fine if there is some initial contact with 'Al Qaeda' central command, or Al Qaeda set them up, train or give support etc. But what we are seeing is that activities by people who are terrorists and share any of the values of Al Qaeda being labelled as 'Al Qaeda'. Many of those labelled as 'Al Qaeda' are nothing of the sort - i.e. have had no contact with anyone who reports to Zaharawi or Bin Laden etc.

In short, I wait for the evidence to unfold and the full story to come out. Past experiences have shown that initial assessments have tended to be over-blown.

Cheers,
Shafique

Oh great, now you think all this is a conspiracy too? I didn't really expect that Shaf.

I guess the West has no merits - is pure evil. Everything about the West is corrupt - nothing can be trusted. All the Arab and Muslim nations are far better - have a higher morality in their operations. Nothing evil about non-Western governments at all. Have I got it right?

I'm not sure if you are joking or not Kanelli?

You will forgive me for not immediately believing what is given to the media to report.

If I did so, I would have thought that the poor Brazilian was running away, and refused to comply with Police instructions to stop (what Ian Blair, Commissioner of Met Police, said in a press conference early on).

I would also believe that the two guys in Forest Gate were Al Qaeda sympathisers who had chemical weapons in their home and that the guy who was shot was shot by his brother.

I would believe that there was an Al Qaeda plot to poison people with Ricin and that Ricin poison was found in a flat where some muslim bachelors were staying..

I would also have to believe that Saddam did have WMD which could target the West and be deployed in 45 min.

Jumping the pond, I would also believe that the Oklahamo bombing was carried out by Muslim Terrorists.



I actually think that 'Innocent until proven guilty' is a great WESTERN value - but in this case believing in this maxim when the accused are young muslim men is to be labelled as believing in a conspiracy?

Look, track record hasn't been good - but I will give the police etc the benefit of the doubt and give them some time to produce some evidence of explosives or any other physical evidence that an attack was imminent - other than postings on the internet.

As for mis-using security scares, I was in the UK just before the Iraq invasion when Heathrow was surrounded by tanks and the army supposedly in response to a terrorist threat. Security experts all commented that this was for show only - Al Qaeda do not have tanks in the UK or use tactics that will be deterred by having the army parading around the terminals (remember that armed Police and other security measures had already been put in place in and around the airports).

And this occured at a time when Tony Blair had to justify to Parliament his reasons for going to war with Iraq. Conspiracy? Hmmm?

I'll condemn anyone who is guilty - you should know this by now. But let's see the evidence - the security forces have cried wolf too many times for me to accept initial reports at face value. As I said, let's see how the evidence unfolds and what is real and what is hype.

Cheers,
Shafique

Fine, you can choose to believe that the terrorist plot arrests are a conspiracy to deflect attention off of Lebanon, and are further example of the West trying to falsely frame Muslims for terrorism.

I can choose to believe that the evidence will come and either those people will be innocent or guilty. I don't assume that all Muslims are terrorists, but I am not foolish enough to believe that some radical Muslims have not been planning another 9/11 style attack to get revenge on Western government actions in the Middle East.

Kanelli,

I thought I was saying "these guys are innocent until proven guilty, especially given the track records of these types of arrests".


I agree with you that there are people planning another WTC type attack - many of these groups have nothing to do with Al Qaeda, but are wannabes.


It could be a consipiracy, it could be a rooster-up, it could also be an inteligence coup and foiled an actual plot. Neither you, nor I, have any real way of knowing which of these is actually right - the evidence will eventually come out and we can look back and assess the evidence/charges/convictions against the headlines.

Interesting how some people take the view that this must be true because they believe someone somewhere is plotting, whilst others say if it is true - lock them up and throw away the key - but let's see the evidence.

I totally agree - all I want is to see the evidence.

To be honest, I seriously doubt that such a thing that would throw so many countries into chaos and panic would be made up. Plus don't forget the work the Pakistani Government has been doing and the things they've found too, it seems highly unlikely to me.

You'll always have people spouting conspiracy theories, but actually what about the otherside, that plotters would have seen it an opportune time as they expected all attention to be ele where - did anyone look at it from that perspective? I doubt it.

Kanelli - glad we agree about seeing the evidence. I would be surprised if there was nothing to this plot - I believe there must be some fire to cause all this smoke - but I would not be surprised if the timing or level of warnings have been manipulated.

Choco - I remember much the same arguement behind WMD in Iraq: "surely the intelligence communities couldn't have got it so wrong.."

The skeptics then, and there were many, were proved right.

Similarly with the Ricin episode - that was blanket media coverage in the UK about poisons being found and Blair stood up in parliament and said how this shows we need tough laws against terrorism etc - and it was all for nothing. Hence my references to 'crying wolf' in the past.

However, you make a good point about seeing it from the alleged bomber's perspectives in terms of timing. It will be interesting to see why the authorities believed the threat was imminent and if they actuallly uncover any explosives.

To be honest Shaf, still better to be vigilant, than to let another 9/11 or 7/7 happen and more innocent lives are lost. The simple fact is that there are some people out there who would cause harm given the chance, sooner or later.

Totally agree Chocs.

Changing the subject slightly - have you seen 'the power of nightmares'? I certainly have become more skeptical after seeing that documentary.

cheers,
Shafique

Shafique,

U made me curious to see this documentary! where can i see it?

No, but of course psychological fears can be a big contribution to things. Also don't forget there vare many things that Governments keep secret from the public as the truth of many things, people just wouldn't be able to handle and mass panic would ensue.

My internet is too slow to download those. I would love to see them though.

UAE - the documentaries are on YouTube, there is a thread about this on this very forum.

If you do a Google search for 'Power of Nightmares' you may find other sites that host copies of this - eg. Information Clearing House has a copy on-line.

Kanelli - I can't access these from work, but I can download them at home and burn onto a CD for you (or come round sometime and we can watch them on the big screen - my pc is connected to the tv).

Cheers,
Shafique