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The resistance movements in Iraq and Afghanistan need our unconditional support. Many liberals in America have viewed the resistance in Iraq as uncouth because they are bloody and are supposedly religious fundamentalists. My response to that is there is a symbiotic relationship between occupier and the occupied. Indeed the resistance resorts to brutality because the occupation is even more brutal. When the resistance kills civilians then they are just as bad as the occupation. I believe there should be unconditional but not uncritical support for the resistance. That means we must support their actions in fighting against the occupation but we should criticize them when it is merited.

viva la resistance!

So buy a plane ticket Che.

mraph33 wrote:So buy a plane ticket Che.

yes but not to bolivia

if you are against the occupation of iraq how do you expect the americans to leave without armed resistance?

valkyrie wrote:if you are against the occupation of iraq how do you expect the americans to leave without armed resistance?

What do you expect to happen if the Americans walked out this afternoon?

iraq would be better than if they stayed. yes i believe that iraq has hurdles ahead of it but it would be better for the americans to leave. if iraq descends into a civil war it will happen regardless of an american presence.

ajb wrote:

valkyrie wrote:if you are against the occupation of iraq how do you expect the americans to leave without armed resistance?

What do you expect to happen if the Americans walked out this afternoon?

Everyone know what will happen.....civil war will spread all around this country....but unfortunately its a must....If you know IRAQ history in the last thousand years, you would know thatthis country can never be ruled thru pure democracy. It needs a brutal power figure to subdue this country, but atleast that figure would be from within IRAQ, otherwise iraqies would never accept him.....This is the unfortunate truth that many try to ignore it.

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert ordered the army to expand its ground offensive into Lebanon on Friday, asserting there was a lack of progress in U.N. talks on a truce, political sources said.

"We said two days ago that we would stop the fire, either militarily or diplomatically," an Israeli political source said. "We see that the ceasefire deal in the U.N. is not making the required progress, and therefore we have authorized the military action."



valkyrie see y7ou on F,.F loser puff

uae75 wrote:

ajb wrote:

valkyrie wrote:if you are against the occupation of iraq how do you expect the americans to leave without armed resistance?

What do you expect to happen if the Americans walked out this afternoon?

Everyone know what will happen.....civil war will spread all around this country....but unfortunately its a must....If you know IRAQ history in the last thousand years, you would know thatthis country can never be ruled thru pure democracy. It needs a brutal power figure to subdue this country, but atleast that figure would be from within IRAQ, otherwise iraqies would never accept him.....This is the unfortunate truth that many try to ignore it.

I agree with him (points up to UAE75). I used to say the same to my friends in America when they would talk about it; but they all just said that I was against the US and was supporting my Arab brothers....*cough* *cough*

Im not against the US, I mean, I am a citizen of America, but I just dont agree with the actions the government takes sometimes...err...most of the time. The whole occupancy, war...whatever you want to call it, its just a d a m n shame in my opinion.

bushra21 wrote:

uae75 wrote:

ajb wrote:

valkyrie wrote:if you are against the occupation of iraq how do you expect the americans to leave without armed resistance?

What do you expect to happen if the Americans walked out this afternoon?

Everyone know what will happen.....civil war will spread all around this country....but unfortunately its a must....If you know IRAQ history in the last thousand years, you would know thatthis country can never be ruled thru pure democracy. It needs a brutal power figure to subdue this country, but atleast that figure would be from within IRAQ, otherwise iraqies would never accept him.....This is the unfortunate truth that many try to ignore it.

I agree with him (points up to UAE75). I used to say the same to my friends in America when they would talk about it; but they all just said that I was against the US and was supporting my Arab brothers....*cough* *cough*

Im not against the US, I mean, I am a citizen of America, but I just dont agree with the actions the government takes sometimes...err...most of the time. The whole occupancy, war...whatever you want to call it, its just a d a m n shame in my opinion.

Well this is the problem with USA today, the government is taking back lots of the liberties that was given to its citizen. They would come down and hard on anyone wh opposes its war. I mean i can bet that lots of democrats are against this war, but they cant say it out and loud, cuz it will crush them politically...they are stuck!

Exactly why i supported for saddam to stay untill an cote de ta or revolution erupt internally.

Democracy can't be forced, nor imported, it should be earned by the people inside the nation.

lets hope that it stays as one land till it settle down.

Oh, so support sectarian violence - great idea! The resistance = Iranians, Syrians, Yemenis etc. who come across the borders to fight the coalition. Have the Iraqi people asked those men to come in and blow up Iraqi policemen, innocent women and children etc.? I don't think so.

The coalition is there training Iraqi's to police and army, as well as help Iraq set up the government. They don't want to keep troops there forever. It makes no logical sense to keep troops there forever. That would cause unrest in the countries back home who want their soldiers to return. The occupation of Iraq is becoming less popular year by year because of the expense, the deaths and the weariness of the soldiers. I don't care if some people don't like that the coalition is influencing the government etc. - they are the ones currently stopping Iraq from falling into complete civil war. It doesn't matter if the coalition started this mess in the first place, because what is done is done. What matters is that they are trying to get out and make conditions so that they can get out.

I agree with yshimy.

I dont see the americans stopping this country from falling into civil war!...Its clearly failing in this aspect, whether its their choice or not.

In regards to killing men women and children, well i think everyone is doing that, starting from the americans, to shiiat's to kurds to resistance groups to the iraqi policemen themselves........unless ur trying to give a blind eye to that!!!!

What made me laugh is the fact that someone said that americans will want to leave...says who?!...they are here to stay unless they get kicked out....I dont see them leaving Japan, or Germany or UK or South Korea!...If they did, they would know this war is lost for good. Whenever they mention they want to withdraw, it only means, withdrawing the big portion of this army, but they will still have their own military bases in Iraq.

The only solution for this country is Chaos, in order for it to be reborn again.....Its the unfortunate fact, whom many would disagree with, but this is how the world is really run, specially in the Middle East.

Many of the coalition forces have partially begun to withdraw their troops. Certainly the UK already has a plan for withdrawl and will implement it over a period of time.

As for the Americans, I don't know. But sad to say that on withdrawl the country will go into meltdown, I don't think anything will stop that, it will be a power struggle between factions until some sort of stability is reached, but certainly they have to get on with it themselves.

Of course people get killed when there is military occupation. If insurgents weren't hiding in neighbourhoods and attacking the occupying forces, then the cities and towns could get back to rebuilding themselves instead of facing daily battles between coalition and other outsiders who have no business in Iraq. Some of you seem to be turning a blind eye to the fact that outside forces besides the US are trying to force their will on Iraqis as well.

Just because the US has bases doesn't mean the US is inside people's cities and towns anymore. The US can be told to leave completely. If not, then Iraqi's have the right to attack any US base set up in Iraq. The main thing is that innocent women and children - regular civilians will not be targeted or caught in the middle anymore.

I really don't like the double standard that some Arabs and Muslims think it is terrible for the coalition to be there - resulting in deaths of civilians, but yet it is okay for outside people to come and murder Iraqi police as well as innocent civilians. If I understand this correctly, only fellow Arabs and Muslims are allowed to kill Iraqis, just not the coalition. Does that seem fair to you?

Chocoholic wrote:Many of the coalition forces have partially begun to withdraw their troops. Certainly the UK already has a plan for withdrawl and will implement it over a period of time.

As for the Americans, I don't know. But sad to say that on withdrawl the country will go into meltdown, I don't think anything will stop that, it will be a power struggle between factions until some sort of stability is reached, but certainly they have to get on with it themselves.

Totally agree with that.

kanelli wrote:Of course people get killed when there is military occupation. If insurgents weren't hiding in neighbourhoods and attacking the occupying forces, then the cities and towns could get back to rebuilding themselves instead of facing daily battles between coalition and other outsiders who have no business in Iraq. Some of you seem to be turning a blind eye to the fact that outside forces besides the US are trying to force their will on Iraqis as well.

Just because the US has bases doesn't mean the US is inside people's cities and towns anymore. The US can be told to leave completely. If not, then Iraqi's have the right to attack any US base set up in Iraq. The main thing is that innocent women and children - regular civilians will not be targeted or caught in the middle anymore.

I really don't like the double standard that some Arabs and Muslims think it is terrible for the coalition to be there - resulting in deaths of civilians, but yet it is okay for outside people to come and murder Iraqi police as well as innocent civilians. If I understand this correctly, only fellow Arabs and Muslims are allowed to kill Iraqis, just not the coalition. Does that seem fair to you?

Hmmmm.....u talk about doubl standards, while at the sametime you seem to agree with USA keeping bases in iraq and alos you dont want other nations to get involved in this big war. There is a power vacuum in this country, although obviously the USA have the upper hand at the moment, but lots of other nations (neighbors) want a piece of the cake. Most arabs think its better for iraqies to decide what they want, and everyone should be leave, and that includes the american, otherwise u will be accused of being double standard

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. You mentiond US bases existing in other parts of the world. I was saying that those are bases - not American soldiers patrolling all the towns and cities. The same could apply for Iraq. If Iraq says the US can keep a base there, then fine. If they don't then the Americans need to leave. Do you get what I mean now?

I do not agree with anyone meddling in Iraqi affairs. My point is that so many Arabs and Muslims are complaining every time American/Coalition soldiers kill civilians, yet they say nothing when insurgents from other countries kill civilians. We have valkyrie here saying that people should support the murderous insurgents! Amazing! Like I said, it seems acceptable for Arabs and Muslims to kill Iraqis, but not any Westerners. That is pretty pathetic in my opinion. I don't understand that logic at all.

The US ousted Hussein is now trying to turn control back over the Iraqis. Now we can see that surrounding countries are trying to destabilise the country in order to install a government suitable to their political/religious tastes. Maybe all of it is bad, but it seems to me that the US is aiming for a cooperative government where Shiias and Sunnis etc. can exist together. The other insurgent groups are not working towards peaceful coexistance of those sects.

kanelli wrote:Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. You mentiond US bases existing in other parts of the world. I was saying that those are bases - not American soldiers patrolling all the towns and cities. The same could apply for Iraq. If Iraq says the US can keep a base there, then fine. If they don't then the Americans need to leave. Do you get what I mean now?

I do not agree with anyone meddling in Iraqi affairs. My point is that so many Arabs and Muslims are complaining every time American/Coalition soldiers kill civilians, yet they say nothing when insurgents from other countries kill civilians. We have valkyrie here saying that people should support the murderous insurgents! Amazing! Like I said, it seems acceptable for Arabs and Muslims to kill Iraqis, but not any Westerners. That is pretty pathetic in my opinion. I don't understand that logic at all.

The US ousted Hussein is now trying to turn control back over the Iraqis. Now we can see that surrounding countries are trying to destabilise the country in order to install a government suitable to their political/religious tastes. Maybe all of it is bad, but it seems to me that the US is aiming for a cooperative government where Shiias and Sunnis etc. can exist together. The other insurgent groups are not working towards peaceful coexistance of those sects.

Kanelli, I was reading ur comments, and was totally shocked! U actually really believe that the americans want to leave? Do u realy think the american will create a government that would ask them to leave? Even if its only bases!!!...My dear, this is politics, and everyone knows why the americans are in Iraq, and they ain't leaving till they get it done or get kicked out!

And who said arabs are not complaining about insurgents killing civilians!! its in the news 24hours a day, in arabic channels, like the Aljazeera!! even the arabic governments are complaining about all these killings whether it was Americans or Insurgents fault. So get your facts right.

Why is it shocking to think that the Americans would leave? Also, what time frame should we consider? The fact is that neither of us knows what will happen. We are both guessing. There is evidence both ways. We'll just have to see who is right in the end.

I keep hearing people on this forum and elsewhere talking about getting the Americans/Coalition out of Iraq and supporting the resistance against the Americans/Coalition. I do not hear people complaining about isurgents or sectarian violence - except that it is the US/Coalition that caused those problems. All I hear is, "Blame it on the US/West."

It seems lots of people in this forum dont understand the mentality of the middle eastern people, and how religion is part of their daily life,and culture. The word "insurgents" is a defintion that USA/UK have created in order to enforce segregation between arab countries.

We all have to understand, that in EVERY arab and muslim heart, they would love to stand up and defend any arab country, and would love to go and join whatever forces in face of the occupying forces. If all of us understood this concept, then we will all understand why "insurgents" exist. Maybe the way to fight the occupying forces is something debatable, but the main objective is freeing the country.

Whats really funny is that USA never said anything about the insurgents who were fighting against the russians in the eighties, cuz these insurgents "mujahideen" were serving a purpose to the americans.

If we understood why arabs/muslims went to afghanistan in the eighties, then u will know why lots of arabs/muslims want to join the fight against the americans in iraq.

Again, even with your last post all I am hearing is justification about how it is okay for Arabs/Muslims to kill other Arabs and Muslims who are not from the same sect of Islam, and everything is the US's fault because they are hypocrits.

I've said my piece and I don't think I misunderstand at all. The Arab world is just as hypocritical as the Western world. I wonder if it is because we are all humans in the end.

Where exactly did i say its okay to kill arabs from other sects! .....Either u were not wearing ur glasses or just didnt know what the hell u were talking about.

uae75 wrote:We all have to understand, that in EVERY arab and muslim heart, they would love to stand up and defend any arab country, and would love to go and join whatever forces in face of the occupying forces. If all of us understood this concept, then we will all understand why "insurgents" exist. Maybe the way to fight the occupying forces is something debatable, but the main objective is freeing the country.

Here you go.

Did all the insurgents ask the Iraqis whether they wanted Arab/Muslim occupying groups to come in and blow up their sons who try to join the police force? (As well as the women and children standing nearby?) The Iraqi men join the police so that they can police their own neighbourhoods - therefore the coalition troops don't need to patrol the streets. You have rose-tinted glasses if you think that insurgents are coming only to rid the country of the coalition. What they want is to help set up a Muslim government according to their sect. So much for "helping" the Iraqis.

kanelli wrote:

uae75 wrote:We all have to understand, that in EVERY arab and muslim heart, they would love to stand up and defend any arab country, and would love to go and join whatever forces in face of the occupying forces. If all of us understood this concept, then we will all understand why "insurgents" exist. Maybe the way to fight the occupying forces is something debatable, but the main objective is freeing the country.

Here you go.

Did all the insurgents ask the Iraqis whether they wanted Arab/Muslim occupying groups to come in and blow up their sons who try to join the police force? (As well as the women and children standing nearby?) The Iraqi men join the police so that they can police their own neighbourhoods - therefore the coalition troops don't need to patrol the streets. You have rose-tinted glasses if you think that insurgents are coming only to rid the country of the coalition. What they want is to help set up a Muslim government according to their sect. So much for "helping" the Iraqis.

If you did read my earlier post, you would have realised that i did mention clearly,"Maybe the way to fight the occupying forces is something debatable". Some might agree with it and others might not, so I am not giving any justificaitons in my post to kill civilians.

And since you brought it up, No one took permission to bomb the civilians in IRaq,I dont recall the coalition army took any permission when they bombed the City of Fallujeh with howitzers! I dont think the coalition took permission from the iraqies when they were killing kids with their rifle at point blank, and I dont think they took permission from the iraqies to torture the prisoners of war! and i dont think they took permission to bomb mosques and hospitals, just to find out later, there were no insurgents, only women and children!...........

Lets stop being bias when we debate and look things from an objective point of view.

I'm not being biased. I have posted that no one should be meddling in Iraq. All I have done is point out the hypocrisy in some Arabs/Muslims viewpoints on Iraq - that doesn't tend to go over well, and I don't expect to win friends for it. In any case, I feel it needs to be said. You can feel free to disagree. I just sympathise with Iraqi civilians who are stuck in the middle of two sides who are in the wrong. The coalition will street fight with insurgents (and they are insurgents - they are not Iraqi citizens and don't act on their behalf) and insurgents will keep coming in order to kill coalition. Each side wants to help reshape Iraq into what they want it to be. I can see that plain as day, but some Arabs/Muslims are okay with insurgency, but not okay with coalition occupation. Therein lies the hypocrisy.

I'm done - only going over the same ground, so no point in continuing. It has been an interesting debate uae75 (seems to only be the two of us lately). No hard feelings. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Actually my friend, there is one small info that I believe I would need to correct it for you. Most of what you call insurgents, are actually Iraqi men. Even the iraqi men themselves admit it. Although truely some of them believe in Al-Qaeda way of fight, but most of them are just resistance groups from within iraq. Its what they americans like to call them, Saddam freedom fighting groups.

Now I am done, and it was really a pleasure going and on in this debate knowing very well neither of us can convince the other.

Actually, I would like to know where I can find that info. I seem to have read otherwise in news reports. Insurgents have been crossing the borders from Iran and Syria. There have been reports of Yemenis and Pakistanis as well. I'm sure there may well be some Iraqi insurgents. I wonder how they feel about killing other Iraqi men, women and children. It seems the insurgents are more efficient at killing Iraqis than coalition troops.

Sadly K, I think when it comes to that side of things, if you're not supporting them, then you're against them and then they don't care if they kill other Iraqis or not.