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Lionheart wrote:

Concord wrote:

Lionheart wrote:

Anway the timing of this plot is suspicious... blair loosinf support at home, especially his recent green to Zoinist state bombing in Lebanon, Bush's republican party is up reelection on congress, they are behind on most polls...they could use scare tactic to bust their numbers, Isreal needs to deflect world attention away from their massacres in Lebanon..what better way than terror act on London or New York...There are other people deeper pockets, better mind and better motives than 21 angry Pakistanese. But than again if they are found guilty in court of law do whatever you please with them...hang them down town London..gas them..whatever punishment your justice sytem pleases.

what if they were 21 "angry arabs" instead of "21 angry Pakistanese" as you put it should the punishment be the same?

21 angry Arabs or 21 angry Pakistanese or 21 angry Turks...it really doesn't matter and for the punishment of they are founf guilty its upto the county they have committed the crime in not me.

Glad to hear

kanelli wrote:Lionheart appears and states the expected.

Chevaliers - take a hike. We don't like trolls here.

I think that many US and British airlines are going to see a major drop in business if passengers, especially business ones, can't bring laptops and carry on bags with their clothes for short trips. I have had my checked luggage lost and damaged, so always keep important things in my carry on bag... For this reason I won't be flying any airline that uses the no carry on bag policy.

Kanelli what happened to innocent till proven guilty in court of law not infront of public media.


Please read about the Jose Padilla the accused dirty bomber who was kept in Isolatation with charge for 3 years...

"In the name of God the merciful the mercy giver," Mr. Padilla wrote, "I have been allowed to write you a card and just letting you know I'm doing fine and in good health. Do not believe what is being said about me in the news it is untrue and I pray that we can have a reunion. Love your son Pucho." Pucho was Mr. Padilla's childhood nickname


http://www.puertorico-herald.org/issues/2004/vol8n19/TerrorSuspect.shtml

Lionheart, you continuously accuse me of stating that people who are arrested are guilty. In a previous thread about the Toronto arrests, I specifically said "alleged". I also clarified that it is up to the courts. The same goes for this case. It is you who assumes that I find all the arrested people guilty.

What I find with your posts is that while you claim that the arrested people are innocent until proven guilty, you always give a guilty verdict to law enforcement and the legal system. You always jump to defend the alleged terrorists by stating your conspiracy theories and pointing only to examples of people being falsely charged with terrorism. Have you forgotten that some people actually are terrorists who aim to kill innocent people, or are you denying that any terrorists exist?

kanelli wrote:Lionheart, you continuously accuse me of stating that people who are arrested are guilty. In a previous thread about the Toronto arrests, I specifically said "alleged". I also clarified that it is up to the courts. The same goes for this case. It is you who assumes that I find all the arrested people guilty.

What I find with your posts is that while you claim that the arrested people are innocent until proven guilty, you always give a guilty verdict to law enforcement and the legal system. You always jump to defend the alleged terrorists by stating your conspiracy theories and pointing only to examples of people being falsely charged with terrorism. Have you forgotten that some people actually are terrorists who aim to kill innocent people, or are you denying that any terrorists exist?

If I accused of that than I'm sorry, I apologize.

Know about the Law enforcement the CIA, MI5 and to lesser extent FBI..I personally don't trust what they say most of the time and I have plenty of reasons to be suspicious. But anyway if law enforcement has cases against people they allege to be terrorist than wouldn't be in their interest to put them on trial rather than putting them in dungeon without a trial. I hope Britian puts these alleged terrorist on trial like Canada and not like state.


Kanelli read the link I posted

Whew, that was a long one!

The way the US government is handling the case is wrong - there should either be enough evidence to bring formal charges to a judge in a reasonable amout of time, or you have to let the person go. The Enemy Combatant and other right-infringing laws the States put into effect after Sept. 11 are shameful and the US has been widely criticised about those. It would be interesting to have an open court session so that everyone can see the evidence. I don't agree that American's should just take the government's word for it that Padilla is guilty.

kanelli wrote:

The way the US government is handling the case is wrong - there should either be enough evidence to bring formal charges to a judge in a reasonable amout of time, or you have to let the person go. The Enemy Combatant and other right-infringing laws the States put into effect after Sept. 11 are shameful and the US has been widely criticised about those. It would be interesting to have an open court session so that everyone can see the evidence. I don't agree that American's should just take the government's word for it that Padilla is guilty.

Fortunately most Americans (vast majority) agree with your post K. This matter will get sorted out for good by the Supreme Court eventually so that it won't happen again. And if Padilla is not guilty then he would have suffered unjustly but will be released [and compensated regardless of the arguments as to what is "compensation'] and if guilty then he should remaing in prison. The point is that this crappy policy will be sorted and luckily Dubya can't be relected (maybe Jeb Bush!!).

Jeb Bush! Oh man... that's a scary thought. I was talking with a friend and we want Oprah Winfrey to be the next US President.

Lionheart wrote:

kanelli wrote:/me waits for Lionheart to post and say that all the people arrested were framed and the whole terror plot and subsequent arrests are a conspiracy.

They are framed until proven guilty in court of law...or is democracy all about putting people on trial on public media.

Agree totally with your comment Lionheart.......but for some unknown reason, this rule doesnt apply on muslims!

I was going to post: it would be nice to know whose text is the one in red and then I figure it out: who gives a crap!

LH, If you actually read the order in which things happened, the first arrests were made by Pakistani authorities in Pakistan. Videos have also been found of suspects boasting of the plot, where 7 recruited suicide bombers would bring down planes in the next fortnight. The British forces were therefore forced to move forward their operation to avoid suspects from fleeing. Also soft drinks bottles containing explosive liquids have been found at an address in SE London.

Oh and here's a really good one! When police searched the property of one of the suspects arrested in High Wycombe they found.....wait for it......30 Cannabis plants! WTF! So you go all religious, 'allegedly' get involved in planning to blow up planes and yet you're growing weed in your back yard - give me a break.

Oh I see, so the media shouldn't be told that arrests have been made - just to protect the people who were arrested? Do you really think that Western governments are making up false evidence to charge Muslims with terrorism? Everything is a big conspiracy and set-up for Muslims? Give me a break.

Of course they should involve the media, it sends out the message that these people WILL be caught!

Also for people to start going around saying the whole thing was made up to take the focus off Lebanon is totally ridiculous.

The people that have been arrested are at this stage 'suspects' no charges have been filed against them as yet, police are in the 'case building' stage, where evidence is collected and if there is enough, then it goes to trial for prosecution.

If you read the media reports you'll see they are littered with the words 'suspect', 'suspected', 'allegedly', 'believed to be', which means it's all on-going investigation. The media are allowed to publish photos and details of those taken into custody because they are all over the legal age, and it is deemed in the public interest. Also the neighbours of these people obviously have seen what has gone on at the properties, so better to release genuine statements than have chinese whispers going around.

I agree Chocs! The public has a right to know all the details, and anyone with half a brain knows that just because people are arrested doesn't mean they will be convicted.

But what really annoys me, is the fact that they refer to their religion, and not to their nationalities! The media likes to make a big deal of Muslims being terrorist, although they could have simply said that "Few pakistanies were plotting to blow the planes." I dont see the media saying for example there were few british christian kidnappers! they just say Brits!

This is the question people should ask themselves? why is the media and the western government trying as hard as they can to scare people of anyone who is muslim!!!

Chocoholic wrote:Oh and here's a really good one! When police searched the property of one of the suspects arrested in High Wycombe they found.....wait for it......30 Cannabis plants! WTF! So you go all religious, 'allegedly' get involved in planning to blow up planes and yet you're growing weed in your back yard - give me a break.

Who said anything about them being religious!! they said they are muslims ,nothing more! U always see cases where you have americans or europeans growing weed, why dont you assume they are "religious" too

The fact remains that these guys are trying to perpetrate terrorism as radical Muslims. They are doing it in the name of Islam to punish the Western government for their actions in the Middle East. There are no Christians taking part - so far it has only been Muslims. The media always mentions the nationality or background of the people arrested because the public wants to know. The Muslim part is mentioned because it is relevant to the motive for the attacks.

Here in the UAE they are also mentioning nationality when reporting crimes etc. in the newspapers.

By the way, there was one Belgian woman who converted to Islam after marrying a Muslim guy - and they blew themselves up in Iraq to kill some police. There was also one American and one Australian from Christian backgrounds, who also converted to Islam and ended up becoming involved with radical Muslim groups like Al Qaeda and the Taliban.

uae75, there are some people claiming to be devout Muslims, who want to take part in Jihad against Western governments, yet you find out that they have been drinking, taking drugs, living with their girlfriends, and visiting strip joints. So it seems that they are religious enough to commit murder in the name of Islam, but not quite religious enough to live by the basic teachings of the Quran.

Because my friend in reports on several of the suspects, it's been said by friends and family that many converted to Islam, then became deeply religious and started acting oddly before all this kicked off.

The sad fact of it is, that all those arrested are Muslim. The majority have been described as British born of Pakistani decent. Sadly you cannot get away from the fact that the majority of those committing terrorist attacks are Muslim fanatics, or innocent Muslims that have had their minds warped by people hell bent on destruction, but are too cowardly to do it themselves, so they recruit young people who're easily manipulated.

Not one of those arrested was over 25! That is shocking! Many were actually teenagers.

Sorry to say that it's these kind of people which give the majority of peaceful muslims a bad name, but also the problem comes from within as the Muslim community is not seen as actively trying to weed out those which would take part in such activities.

I can just imagine someone stating that we should actively try to weed out the bad elements in the Protestant, Born-Again Christian, Christian Zionist and Jewish faiths, because of the mayhem and destruction that many of its members and supporters cause to other nations. Protestant Christians in the US are supporting the Israeli war of agression. The evangelist Pat Robertson went to Israel to show support for Israel's war and to pray with Ehud Olmert for an Israeli victory... PRAY... wow, hypocrisy at it's best! Would it be fair to say that there is an ingrained problem with some Protestant Christians and Jews? Most in the West focus on the twisted Islamic ideologies of a few - many have been conditioned to believe this by propaganda; Muslims are an easier, more convenient and more acceptable target of blame...

As for why is the media and the western government trying as hard as they can to scare people of anyone who is muslin!!!



Could it be The Glorious Americans/Great Britain would like more support from their people in there new war aims ?

Well, i will try not to be bias, in order not to sound like somone who will defend the guys who were trying to blow up the planes, cuz i am totally against their way just like what most arabs & muslims think.

But at the sametime westerners should allow themselves to sit back and view things from a different point than what the western media is feeding their brains.

Dueto the bad wrap muslims are getting from western media, everyone assumes we are alike, and instead of being seen as friendly unless proven otherwise, people would assume ur a terrorist at the beginning till the find out that whatever the media was telling them was false.

In the USA for example, when the oklahoma building got blasted, the first assumption was "those damn muslims again"...but luckily they got disappointed when they found it was none other than few american racist radicals, but you wouldnt see the media making a big deal of their christian belief, although they were considered christian radicals, and you wont even see them mentioning that terrible incident anymore in the media. Or lets get another example, I never saw once a western media mentioning that these Israelies who everyone knows have bombed lots of women and children in the last few weeks, as jews. Although everyone knows that the Israeli soldiers are fundamentalist!

Its these cases, where people should start thinking, and asking themselves, WHY?

freza wrote::-)

I can just imagine someone stating that we should actively try to weed out the bad elements in the Protestant, Born-Again Christian, Christian Zionist and Jewish faiths, because of the mayhem and destruction that many of its members and supporters cause to other nations. Protestant Christians in the US are supporting the Israeli war of agression. The evangelist Pat Robertson went to Israel to show support for Israel's war and to pray with Ehud Olmert for an Israeli victory... PRAY... wow, hypocrisy at it's best! Would it be fair to say that there is an ingrained problem with some Protestant Christians and Jews? Most in the West focus on the twisted Islamic ideologies of a few - many have been conditioned to believe this by propaganda; Muslims are an easier, more convenient and more acceptable target of blame...

U went straight to the point.....

Everytime there is an atrocity, very few members of the Muslim community actually stand up and condem it. It's about time that Muslims, whether they are devoute or moderate stand up and say that these things are wrong and unacceptable. Is any wonder that 'big brother' is keeping an eye on what is being preached inside mosques.

I for one think it's tragic that a whole religion is being torn down by the act of a few people who have no regard what-so-ever for anyone else. The actions are cowardly and nothing more. But until their own people object, protest and say what they're doing is wrong, they'll carry on doing it, and people who know little of Islam will just always think: Muslim = terrorist.

Luckily most of us here know better than that. But it's a sad truth.

We all stand up and criticise our Governments for what they're doing, no-one here agrees with what Israel is doing, so for the life of me I cannot understand why it's so hard for such a large community of people to stand up and say what's wrong is wrong.

uae75, I get what you're saying and I totally agree with you. However look at it this way, these people are born in a country that has given them a good way of life I would imagine, and yet they want to commit mass murder against innocent civilians. If they didn't like it, well you know they can always go back to their origin countries.

Plus these people could always go to the front lines and fight with their 'brothers' for the cause, but hey man that's way too hard. Much easier to target civilians in a cowardly manner.

Chocoholic wrote:uae75, I get what you're saying and I totally agree with you. However look at it this way, these people are born in a country that has given them a good way of life I would imagine, and yet they want to commit mass murder against innocent civilians. If they didn't like it, well you know they can always go back to their origin countries.

Plus these people could always go to the front lines and fight with their 'brothers' for the cause, but hey man that's way too hard. Much easier to target civilians in a cowardly manner.

Well lets look at it from their point of view, I would suspect they are fed up with what they see in TV and the bombings of innocent people whether in IRAQ or Afghanistan, that they would want to repay the debt in the same way. Its a weird and unacceptable way, but they are playing the same game. Violence will only cause more violence, its a way of life!!!

An eye for an eye never works, never has done. It's a terrible shame that some people can only see a way to win by fighting, not about sorting things out in a peaceful manner.

Would have been nice if people can actually sort things out by just sitting around table and discussing it, but in reality, and in the span of the last 3000 years, i dont think that ever worked, except in very rare cases lol

Many rational individual in the US and UK do criticize their government, but do they usually involve religion in the actions of the current very religious-leaning US administration? Do they bring up Judaism when it comes to criticizing Israel? It's kinda taboo to do this... But somehow it's not taboo to bring up Islam when it comes to criticizing terrorists who happen to be Muslim.

This entire terrorist plot is being blown out of proportion. I think it's actually quite convenient that this plot was uncovered at this point, when the US/Israeli war of destruction is taking place. There are some folks who mistakenly believe that Hezbollah is a terrorist group and who don't have their facts straight about the region; these are the people most likely to support US/Israeli agressions of any kind. And as to Blair, the poor dude needs any kind of boost at this point.

There are some minority voices (like the Neturei Karta group) in the Jewish community that do condemn Israeli and Zionist agression, unfortunately it's a very small minority.

Can you name one powerful American Christian religious leader or group who condemns the US and Israel's wars of destruction? (Just out of the top of your head, can you name one???)