I-No-Jack wrote:ajb i thing you are wasting your time with freza - lost cause
I still think we are learning something from each other ... whether we agree or not
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I-No-Jack wrote:ajb i thing you are wasting your time with freza - lost cause
ajb wrote:I-No-Jack wrote:ajb i thing you are wasting your time with freza - lost cause
I still think we are learning something from each other ... whether we agree or not
freza wrote:Is it the protection of Lebanon that you are after or the protection of Hezbollah?
Well since the Lebanese military is so magnificent. Look at how they've responded to this attack and protected their country... Oh snap! well at least they're helping with protecting the UN and US embassy... In all fairness, they're also assisting is providing civilian aid.
You seem to be very good at picking to pieces my suggestions for a solution ... but you have yet to suggest anything yourself as to how to end the bloodshed?
I think Syria needs to get involved. Syria owes it to Lebanon to get involved and it's a shame, straight out shame that it is cowering in a corner while Lebanon is being brutalized this way. The Syrian regime has the weapons and the reason, but so far it has lacked the courage and heart to attack Israel. It can't put off the confrontation forever. I think Syria needs to assist Hezbollah and heavily punish Israel's military. I think that neutral countries should grow a spine and take diplomatic steps to condemn Israel's actions - steps like resolutions, embargos, and economic ramifications against Israel. This is all possible. Teach the bully a lesson, but make it as bloodless as possible.
And to address your previous post the removal of hezbollah maybe Israels goal but they are going to achieve it alot more easily through war than diplomacy .... do you not agree?
Why on earth does Israel have a right to remove Hezbollah? Hezbollah arose because of Israel's invasion and occupation. Hezbollah has every right to defend itself and to exist.
freza wrote:hmmm what kind of reaction do you think Syria's invovlement would bring? I think the US might mobilise in that situation??
Sweety, the US is already behind this situation, it's obvious that Israel is *also* attacking on behalf of the US. Also, the US has 100,000+ In Iraq and the situations there is chaos. Do you trust a victory if the US were to fight on two fronts? One conventional and one not? Oh and let's not forget Afghanistan. US troops are stretched out to the max, a plus for an opponent.
Israel might not have a right to remove Hezbollah but face the facts under the current conditions thats exactly what is going to happen So we should just let an injustice happen? I think what you're saying is very dangerous. Even thinking about denying Israel's right to exist is taboo, but Israel can deny anyone's right to exist and we should just "face the facts"? That's sad and dangerous because it's practically allowing Israel to believe that their lives are worth more than the lives of Arabs. ... if a ceasefire cannot be achieved Israel will continue to remove Hezbollah. I guess what Im trying to say is that the current course of action is steadily leading to one of the things you want least to happen. I would not bet on it. How long did the 1967 Arab-Israeli war last? 6 freakin days! Four countries against tiny Israel and they lost horribly in six days. Damn. How long has this war lasted? Aha! And still Hezbollah is going strong...
Chocoholic wrote:My kitty is laughing as he just let one go in the face of your little wimpy dude.
Anyway I'd still like to here YOUR suggestions, as you have a knack of avoiding direct questions.
Also your comment regarding Israeli's not treating everyone as a human being can also be attributed to many other religious factions, say oh Al Queda, who treat view anyone other tham Muslims as scum. So think before you say such things as others on different sides think the same, but does it mean we should lower ourselves to these opinions? No! It does not.
Chocoholic wrote:See we've had that discussion before on the forum.
Objective point of view, but if it's in the Holy book, then why deny it?
Just asking before you jump all over me.
Chocoholic wrote:See avoidance once again - answer the question! Why not?
Also the fact that Al Queda is a terrorist organisation does not excuse their views, I know many 'normal' people who also have that view point, that they are better than others.
No-one is entitled to consider themselves 'better' or more 'worthy' than anyone else.
Chocoholic wrote:Also I bet you wouldn't dare say such things about the koran.
Double standards?
freza wrote: I happen to be a grown-up 23 year old
MaaaD wrote:Choco and I-No-Jack at no point did freza turn this argument into a personal one, while both of you are steering it that way. If you have nothing to say back dont say it, and keep personal attacks out of this. 23, 13, or 43 .. she is very articulate and logical, and does not resrot to emotional outbursts or personal attacks regardless of whether you agree with her arguments or not.
freza wrote: ajb's suggestion is a reinforcement of what Israel wants, no one should surrender to a terrorist state like Israel, imho.
freza wrote:ajb
"...you do not seem to comprehend that my suggestions are aimed at getting the fight off the battlefield and into a political forum"
If you have been keeping up with the news you would KNOW by now that ISRAEL not Lebanon, but Israel, has flat out REFUSED that political forum that you talk about. They have been offered numerous opportunities for a cease-fire and a dialogue - Olmert has refused all of it. Hezbollah on the other hand has agreed to a cease-fire per the Lebanese government. It is as clear as water: Israel's only form of dialogue is war.
Also I would suggest that to truly understand this situation, you do need to know the history of the Israel, its neighbors and its wars.
ajb wrote:freza wrote:ajb
"...you do not seem to comprehend that my suggestions are aimed at getting the fight off the battlefield and into a political forum"
If you have been keeping up with the news you would KNOW by now that ISRAEL not Lebanon, but Israel, has flat out REFUSED that political forum that you talk about. They have been offered numerous opportunities for a cease-fire and a dialogue - Olmert has refused all of it. Hezbollah on the other hand has agreed to a cease-fire per the Lebanese government. It is as clear as water: Israel's only form of dialogue is war.
Also I would suggest that to truly understand this situation, you do need to know the history of the Israel, its neighbors and its wars.
I am learning the history slowly and by no means do I think that my thoughts are completly right they are just my thoughts as an outsider .... I have been catching up on the news today and agree that Israel are refusing at the moment for a ceasefire ... but I also think by removing their excuses to be attacking that the chances of them being compelled to agree to a ceasefire increase.
freza wrote:Before you say: "How dare you?!"
I don't want to see that happen to Israel: total destruction; NO. Military destruction; YES. It is not right and it does not make sense for the region, that the attacker sets the rules of the game. Those being attacked relentlessly OBVIOUSLY need to defend themselves in view of the plans that Israel has. So what you're saying really does not make sense for anyone but Israel and the US.
ajb wrote:freza wrote:Before you say: "How dare you?!"
I don't want to see that happen to Israel: total destruction; NO. Military destruction; YES. It is not right and it does not make sense for the region, that the attacker sets the rules of the game. Those being attacked relentlessly OBVIOUSLY need to defend themselves in view of the plans that Israel has. So what you're saying really does not make sense for anyone but Israel and the US.
Well don't you think it would be worth trying (i.e. let the soldiers go and stop firing rockets) so that there is a chance of saving some lives. In reality we could have this same conversation till the end of the week and the only thing that will have changed is the body count.
ajb wrote:We both agree that its not about the soldiers and that they were just Israel's excuse.
But I can see the Israeli's clinging to that excuse as their reason for continued attacks i.e. Hezbollah started it (again its just an excuse). As long as they have that excuse they can claim the moral high ground which Im sure you know they are and will continue to do ..... whether releasing the soldiers amounts to anything in terms of peace it will remove the moral high ground that Israel are trying to claim which will lead to increased condemnation from the iternational community .... and that can only be good fo the people of Lebanon!
And this information was given to you by the army chief-of-staff?freza wrote:ajb wrote:freza wrote:Before you say: "How dare you?!"
I don't want to see that happen to Israel: total destruction; NO. Military destruction; YES. It is not right and it does not make sense for the region, that the attacker sets the rules of the game. Those being attacked relentlessly OBVIOUSLY need to defend themselves in view of the plans that Israel has. So what you're saying really does not make sense for anyone but Israel and the US.
Well don't you think it would be worth trying (i.e. let the soldiers go and stop firing rockets) so that there is a chance of saving some lives. In reality we could have this same conversation till the end of the week and the only thing that will have changed is the body count.
NO. ajb, it is NOT about the soldiers, those soldiers were just the excuse! Please understand this very simple notion. Israel needed an excuse to invade Lebanon but the plans for re-invasion were there, for years.
disarmed=destroyed? In what languagefreza wrote: Just today the Olmert reiterated that Israeli military would not rest until Hezbollah was "disarmed". In other words, until they are Destroyed.
How about telling Hezbollah to stop firing rockets from civilian areas. There must be some reason why Israel is firing missles where it does. If if just wanted to randomly kill civilians, it has the firepower to flatten all of Beirut. The high civilian death count is inexcusible, but Israel is not the sole culprit.freza wrote: So if your scenario were to be, if Hezbollah returns the soldiers and stops firing weapons, Israel will still kill Hezbollah off only to invade full scale - invade all of Lebanon. Bloodshed will not stop, on the contrary. And this time it's very likely that a great part of the Shiaa population would be killed off, and/or displaced. Look at history! Israel is not only an expert in killing, it's also an expert at displacing people from their land! Israel will do everything in its power to avoid the emergence of a new angrier generation - Hezbollah II - from this latest Israeli occupation. The signs are already there; it has been killing civilians without taking an ounce of accountability.
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