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I-No-Jack wrote:ajb i thing you are wasting your time with freza - lost cause

I still think we are learning something from each other ... whether we agree or not

ajb wrote:

I-No-Jack wrote:ajb i thing you are wasting your time with freza - lost cause

I still think we are learning something from each other ... whether we agree or not

Are you really? its a broken record

freza wrote:Is it the protection of Lebanon that you are after or the protection of Hezbollah?

Well since the Lebanese military is so magnificent. Look at how they've responded to this attack and protected their country... Oh snap! well at least they're helping with protecting the UN and US embassy... In all fairness, they're also assisting is providing civilian aid.

You seem to be very good at picking to pieces my suggestions for a solution ... but you have yet to suggest anything yourself as to how to end the bloodshed?

I think Syria needs to get involved. Syria owes it to Lebanon to get involved and it's a shame, straight out shame that it is cowering in a corner while Lebanon is being brutalized this way. The Syrian regime has the weapons and the reason, but so far it has lacked the courage and heart to attack Israel. It can't put off the confrontation forever. I think Syria needs to assist Hezbollah and heavily punish Israel's military. I think that neutral countries should grow a spine and take diplomatic steps to condemn Israel's actions - steps like resolutions, embargos, and economic ramifications against Israel. This is all possible. Teach the bully a lesson, but make it as bloodless as possible.

And to address your previous post the removal of hezbollah maybe Israels goal but they are going to achieve it alot more easily through war than diplomacy .... do you not agree?

Why on earth does Israel have a right to remove Hezbollah? Hezbollah arose because of Israel's invasion and occupation. Hezbollah has every right to defend itself and to exist.

hmmm what kind of reaction do you think Syria's invovlement would bring? I think the US might mobilise in that situation??

Israel might not have a right to remove Hezbollah but face the facts under the current conditions thats exactly what is going to happen ... if a ceasefire cannot be achieved Israel will continue to remove Hezbollah. I guess what Im trying to say is that the current course of action is steadily leading to one of the things you want least to happen.

hmmm what kind of reaction do you think Syria's invovlement would bring? I think the US might mobilise in that situation??


Sweety, the US is already behind this situation, it's obvious that Israel is *also* attacking on behalf of the US. Also, the US has 100,000+ In Iraq and the situations there is chaos. Do you trust a victory if the US were to fight on two fronts? One conventional and one not? Oh and let's not forget Afghanistan. US troops are stretched out to the max, a plus for an opponent.

Israel might not have a right to remove Hezbollah but face the facts under the current conditions thats exactly what is going to happen So we should just let an injustice happen? I think what you're saying is very dangerous. Even thinking about denying Israel's right to exist is taboo, but Israel can deny anyone's right to exist and we should just "face the facts"? That's sad and dangerous because it's practically allowing Israel to believe that their lives are worth more than the lives of Arabs. ... if a ceasefire cannot be achieved Israel will continue to remove Hezbollah. I guess what Im trying to say is that the current course of action is steadily leading to one of the things you want least to happen. I would not bet on it. How long did the 1967 Arab-Israeli war last? 6 freakin days! Four countries against tiny Israel and they lost horribly in six days. Damn. How long has this war lasted? Aha! And still Hezbollah is going strong...

freza wrote:hmmm what kind of reaction do you think Syria's invovlement would bring? I think the US might mobilise in that situation??


Sweety, the US is already behind this situation, it's obvious that Israel is *also* attacking on behalf of the US. Also, the US has 100,000+ In Iraq and the situations there is chaos. Do you trust a victory if the US were to fight on two fronts? One conventional and one not? Oh and let's not forget Afghanistan. US troops are stretched out to the max, a plus for an opponent.

Israel might not have a right to remove Hezbollah but face the facts under the current conditions thats exactly what is going to happen So we should just let an injustice happen? I think what you're saying is very dangerous. Even thinking about denying Israel's right to exist is taboo, but Israel can deny anyone's right to exist and we should just "face the facts"? That's sad and dangerous because it's practically allowing Israel to believe that their lives are worth more than the lives of Arabs. ... if a ceasefire cannot be achieved Israel will continue to remove Hezbollah. I guess what Im trying to say is that the current course of action is steadily leading to one of the things you want least to happen. I would not bet on it. How long did the 1967 Arab-Israeli war last? 6 freakin days! Four countries against tiny Israel and they lost horribly in six days. Damn. How long has this war lasted? Aha! And still Hezbollah is going strong...

stretched or not I dont think it would be good for the US to become directly involved i.e. marching US soldiers in to the frame.

Im not saying just let an injustice happen Im saying that diplomacy may be a better solution to fighting it out.

If something doesnt change at the moment what is going to be the result?

Freza, no-ones life is worth more than an other, no matter who you are or what religion or culture you subscribe to.

You have shot down virtually everyone's suggestions, so why don't YOU put forward a solution to the problem, that DOESN'T involve more killing of ANYONE!

Can we have less of the HA's! please, it's very silly.

And you're avatar says to me that you're just a young person clutching at straws and jumping on anyone you can.

Freza, no-ones life is worth more than an other, no matter who you are or what religion or culture you subscribe to.

I know that, but can you try to convince Israel?

You have shot down virtually everyone's suggestions, so why don't YOU put forward a solution to the problem, that DOESN'T involve more killing of ANYONE!

How many people offered viable suggestions to a solution on this thread? Two max, so I wouldn't call that "everyone's" (my you do exagerrate). ajb's suggestion is a reinforcement of what Israel wants, no one should surrender to a terrorist state like Israel, imho. I did offer a suggestion, btw.

Can we have less of the HA's! please, it's very silly.

But that's the way I speak, you want to deny my rights too? Ha!

And you're avatar says to me that you're just a young person clutching at straws and jumping on anyone you can.

No, I just constructively criticize unwise opinions but if my opinion is uninformed or/and straight out whacked, I have no problems with people setting me straight, actually I would relish this. But they have to know their facts (hint, hint, HINT!). I also think it's great that we could share our views on this forum.

I happen to be a grown-up 23 year old who still buys Hello Kitty stuff and Emily the Strange comic books, so you might be right about something. [feel deeply shamed! ] You're right about my avatar too.. I should get a more mature avatar, something like a smiling puzzy wearing a crown?

Ha!

My kitty is laughing as he just let one go in the face of your little wimpy dude.

Anyway I'd still like to here YOUR suggestions, as you have a knack of avoiding direct questions.

Also your comment regarding Israeli's not treating everyone as a human being can also be attributed to many other religious factions, say oh Al Queda, who treat view anyone other tham Muslims as scum. So think before you say such things as others on different sides think the same, but does it mean we should lower ourselves to these opinions? No! It does not.

Chocoholic wrote:My kitty is laughing as he just let one go in the face of your little wimpy dude.

Anyway I'd still like to here YOUR suggestions, as you have a knack of avoiding direct questions.

Also your comment regarding Israeli's not treating everyone as a human being can also be attributed to many other religious factions, say oh Al Queda, who treat view anyone other tham Muslims as scum. So think before you say such things as others on different sides think the same, but does it mean we should lower ourselves to these opinions? No! It does not.

Go back one page, you'll find it there (pg 6 I think).

Al Qaeda is not a religious "faction". It's a terrorist group who mixes twisted religious beliefs into their ideology. Israel is a state that bases its existence on Zionism - the belief that God (yeah, the one and only God) gave them, "the chosen ones" the land of Israel. Hhhmm...

Seems like you're having a bad day. How about thinking a bit more rationally before posting? Just a suggestion...

See we've had that discussion before on the forum.

Objective point of view, but if it's in the Holy book, then why deny it?

Just asking before you jump all over me.

Chocoholic wrote:See we've had that discussion before on the forum.

Objective point of view, but if it's in the Holy book, then why deny it?

Just asking before you jump all over me.

You take everything in the Bible literally?

See avoidance once again - answer the question! Why not?

Also the fact that Al Queda is a terrorist organisation does not excuse their views, I know many 'normal' people who also have that view point, that they are better than others.

No-one is entitled to consider themselves 'better' or more 'worthy' than anyone else.

Also I bet you wouldn't dare say such things about the koran.

Double standards?

Chocoholic wrote:See avoidance once again - answer the question! Why not?

Also the fact that Al Queda is a terrorist organisation does not excuse their views, I know many 'normal' people who also have that view point, that they are better than others.

No-one is entitled to consider themselves 'better' or more 'worthy' than anyone else.

I don't avoid questions, but why your constant accusations? I was a bit shocked at you referencing the bible to justify Zionism. There are several versions of the Bible, I think you're refering to the Protestant one, right? God said he created man in his image, he created all humans to be equal. The claim that some are more special than others is baloney.

The Bible is a book of virtue, history, teachings, prayer, poetry and MTYH. And as you should know a myth is not a lie, but a made-up story that leads to the truth. I do not take everything in the Bible literally.. thank God

Chocoholic wrote:Also I bet you wouldn't dare say such things about the koran.

Double standards?

What are YOU talking about?

You are one jumpy chick! I criticize Muslims at times, you bet I do. I don't know enough of the Koran to talk about it or criticize it, so I won't. But I will say that I respect it.

And what about al Qaeda?? I'm not justifying them! My gosh

You're accusing me of being immature but Choco you're acting.... scatterbrained and truly immature today, what gives? If you had a bad day, chill out, eat some chocolate, but don't take it out on people that disagree with you on the political threads of DF.

freza wrote: I happen to be a grown-up 23 year old

physical growth has nothing to do with it

good thing I realized early on that you are just a kid

Choco and I-No-Jack at no point did freza turn this argument into a personal one, while both of you are steering it that way. If you have nothing to say back dont say it, and keep personal attacks out of this. 23, 13, or 43 .. she is very articulate and logical, and does not resrot to emotional outbursts or personal attacks regardless of whether you agree with her arguments or not.

MaaaD wrote:Choco and I-No-Jack at no point did freza turn this argument into a personal one, while both of you are steering it that way. If you have nothing to say back dont say it, and keep personal attacks out of this. 23, 13, or 43 .. she is very articulate and logical, and does not resrot to emotional outbursts or personal attacks regardless of whether you agree with her arguments or not.

maadd up to now i have been impressed with your posts (here and in israel vs. lebanon). but with respect to freza you are mistaken on the "logical" - even the "articulate" part is suspect but that is a subjective term. i would say, sharewadi, kanelli and chocks are spot on, you are in the middle, lionheart and freza "out there', corcovado - a different story.

keep up the good work

freza wrote: ajb's suggestion is a reinforcement of what Israel wants, no one should surrender to a terrorist state like Israel, imho.

Freza,

It's not a reinforcement of what Israel wants .... you do not seem to comprehend that my suggestions are aimed at getting the fight off the battlefield and into a political forum. Lebanon should keep fighting for their rights but do it in a political forum which does not have so much bloodshed.

By the way I dont know much about the 6 day war that you previously mentioned - were the Israelis backed and supplied weaponry by the US during that war also?

Its funny being from the western world I was brought up hearing what an aggressive area of the world the middle east and its people were ... I never really believed it and always thought I would make up my own mind when I went there .... but I now get the feeling that there are many people on both sides of this conflict that do not want it to end ... very sad.

ajb

"...you do not seem to comprehend that my suggestions are aimed at getting the fight off the battlefield and into a political forum"

If you have been keeping up with the news you would KNOW by now that ISRAEL not Lebanon, but Israel, has flat out REFUSED that political forum that you talk about. They have been offered numerous opportunities for a cease-fire and a dialogue - Olmert has refused all of it. Hezbollah on the other hand has agreed to a cease-fire per the Lebanese government. It is as clear as water: Israel's only form of dialogue is war.

Also I would suggest that to truly understand this situation, you do need to know the history of the Israel, its neighbors and its wars.

freza wrote:ajb

"...you do not seem to comprehend that my suggestions are aimed at getting the fight off the battlefield and into a political forum"

If you have been keeping up with the news you would KNOW by now that ISRAEL not Lebanon, but Israel, has flat out REFUSED that political forum that you talk about. They have been offered numerous opportunities for a cease-fire and a dialogue - Olmert has refused all of it. Hezbollah on the other hand has agreed to a cease-fire per the Lebanese government. It is as clear as water: Israel's only form of dialogue is war.

Also I would suggest that to truly understand this situation, you do need to know the history of the Israel, its neighbors and its wars.

I am learning the history slowly and by no means do I think that my thoughts are completly right they are just my thoughts as an outsider .... I have been catching up on the news today and agree that Israel are refusing at the moment for a ceasefire ... but I also think by removing their excuses to be attacking that the chances of them being compelled to agree to a ceasefire increase.

ajb wrote:

freza wrote:ajb

"...you do not seem to comprehend that my suggestions are aimed at getting the fight off the battlefield and into a political forum"

If you have been keeping up with the news you would KNOW by now that ISRAEL not Lebanon, but Israel, has flat out REFUSED that political forum that you talk about. They have been offered numerous opportunities for a cease-fire and a dialogue - Olmert has refused all of it. Hezbollah on the other hand has agreed to a cease-fire per the Lebanese government. It is as clear as water: Israel's only form of dialogue is war.

Also I would suggest that to truly understand this situation, you do need to know the history of the Israel, its neighbors and its wars.

I am learning the history slowly and by no means do I think that my thoughts are completly right they are just my thoughts as an outsider .... I have been catching up on the news today and agree that Israel are refusing at the moment for a ceasefire ... but I also think by removing their excuses to be attacking that the chances of them being compelled to agree to a ceasefire increase.

Yeah, so let's change it around shall we, let's remove the excuse on the Israeli side - to be fair and even. How about Hezbollah crushes most of Israel, and therefor removes any chance of being attacked?

Before you say: "How dare you?!"

I don't want to see that happen to Israel: total destruction; NO. Military destruction; YES. It is not right and it does not make sense for the region, that the attacker sets the rules of the game. Those being attacked relentlessly OBVIOUSLY need to defend themselves in view of the plans that Israel has. So what you're saying really does not make sense for anyone but Israel and the US.

There are only three countries in the world that are not with a complete uncoditional cease fire. Israel, US and the UK.

freza wrote:Before you say: "How dare you?!"

I don't want to see that happen to Israel: total destruction; NO. Military destruction; YES. It is not right and it does not make sense for the region, that the attacker sets the rules of the game. Those being attacked relentlessly OBVIOUSLY need to defend themselves in view of the plans that Israel has. So what you're saying really does not make sense for anyone but Israel and the US.

Well don't you think it would be worth trying (i.e. let the soldiers go and stop firing rockets) so that there is a chance of saving some lives. In reality we could have this same conversation till the end of the week and the only thing that will have changed is the body count.

ajb wrote:

freza wrote:Before you say: "How dare you?!"

I don't want to see that happen to Israel: total destruction; NO. Military destruction; YES. It is not right and it does not make sense for the region, that the attacker sets the rules of the game. Those being attacked relentlessly OBVIOUSLY need to defend themselves in view of the plans that Israel has. So what you're saying really does not make sense for anyone but Israel and the US.

Well don't you think it would be worth trying (i.e. let the soldiers go and stop firing rockets) so that there is a chance of saving some lives. In reality we could have this same conversation till the end of the week and the only thing that will have changed is the body count.

NO. ajb, it is NOT about the soldiers, those soldiers were just the excuse! Please understand this very simple notion. Israel needed an excuse to invade Lebanon but the plans for re-invasion were there, for years. Just today the Olmert reiterated that Israeli military would not rest until Hezbollah was "disarmed". In other words, until they are Destroyed. So if your scenario were to be, if Hezbollah returns the soldiers and stops firing weapons, Israel will still kill Hezbollah off only to invade full scale - invade all of Lebanon. Bloodshed will not stop, on the contrary. And this time it's very likely that a great part of the Shiaa population would be killed off, and/or displaced. Look at history! Israel is not only an expert in killing, it's also an expert at displacing people from their land! Israel will do everything in its power to avoid the emergence of a new angrier generation - Hezbollah II - from this latest Israeli occupation. The signs are already there; it has been killing civilians without taking an ounce of accountability.

We both agree that its not about the soldiers and that they were just Israel's excuse.

But I can see the Israeli's clinging to that excuse as their reason for continued attacks i.e. Hezbollah started it (again its just an excuse). As long as they have that excuse they can claim the moral high ground which Im sure you know they are and will continue to do ..... whether releasing the soldiers amounts to anything in terms of peace it will remove the moral high ground that Israel are trying to claim which will lead to increased condemnation from the iternational community .... and that can only be good fo the people of Lebanon!

ajb wrote:We both agree that its not about the soldiers and that they were just Israel's excuse.

But I can see the Israeli's clinging to that excuse as their reason for continued attacks i.e. Hezbollah started it (again its just an excuse). As long as they have that excuse they can claim the moral high ground which Im sure you know they are and will continue to do ..... whether releasing the soldiers amounts to anything in terms of peace it will remove the moral high ground that Israel are trying to claim which will lead to increased condemnation from the iternational community .... and that can only be good fo the people of Lebanon!

ajb my friend Israel will always find an excuse. Even if they had to make one. Hariri's death was an "excuse" to see hezbollah destroyed internally without using force .. we saw that didnt work, so now they have another excuse ..

What you are asking for is for hezbollah to be defeatist and accept Israel's whip. Fat chance. I have posted this quote before and i will do that again:

"Those who profess to favour freedom and yet
depreciate agitation are men who want crops without ploughing up the ground; they want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters ... Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will."
- Fredrik Douglass

We both agree that its not about the soldiers and that they were just Israel's excuse.

But I can see the Israeli's clinging to that excuse as their reason for continued attacks i.e. Hezbollah started it (again its just an excuse). So Lebanon should just accept Israel's capricious cling of an excuse? As long as they have that excuse they can claim the moral high ground which Im sure you know they are and will continue to do ..... whether releasing the soldiers amounts to anything in terms of peace it will remove the moral high ground that Israel are trying to claim which will lead to increased condemnation from the iternational community .... and that can only be good fo the people of Lebanon! What moral high ground? Their own delusional moral high ground you mean? I don't think Israel and morality mix in the same sentence unless you're talking about their lack of morality. You're counting on condemnation from the international community... hmmm... the one that has so far failed to condemn Israel's war crimes? The international community has proven to be as good as a sack of potatoes. I think that your thoughts reflect the views of many "neutral"people: That Israel should be treated with kid gloves. That it can jerk the world around with its capriciousness. That Israel is "special" and therefor deserves to get what it wants, no matter how absurd and unjust.

freza wrote:

ajb wrote:

freza wrote:Before you say: "How dare you?!"

I don't want to see that happen to Israel: total destruction; NO. Military destruction; YES. It is not right and it does not make sense for the region, that the attacker sets the rules of the game. Those being attacked relentlessly OBVIOUSLY need to defend themselves in view of the plans that Israel has. So what you're saying really does not make sense for anyone but Israel and the US.

Well don't you think it would be worth trying (i.e. let the soldiers go and stop firing rockets) so that there is a chance of saving some lives. In reality we could have this same conversation till the end of the week and the only thing that will have changed is the body count.

NO. ajb, it is NOT about the soldiers, those soldiers were just the excuse! Please understand this very simple notion. Israel needed an excuse to invade Lebanon but the plans for re-invasion were there, for years.

And this information was given to you by the army chief-of-staff?

freza wrote: Just today the Olmert reiterated that Israeli military would not rest until Hezbollah was "disarmed". In other words, until they are Destroyed.

disarmed=destroyed? In what language

freza wrote: So if your scenario were to be, if Hezbollah returns the soldiers and stops firing weapons, Israel will still kill Hezbollah off only to invade full scale - invade all of Lebanon. Bloodshed will not stop, on the contrary. And this time it's very likely that a great part of the Shiaa population would be killed off, and/or displaced. Look at history! Israel is not only an expert in killing, it's also an expert at displacing people from their land! Israel will do everything in its power to avoid the emergence of a new angrier generation - Hezbollah II - from this latest Israeli occupation. The signs are already there; it has been killing civilians without taking an ounce of accountability.

How about telling Hezbollah to stop firing rockets from civilian areas. There must be some reason why Israel is firing missles where it does. If if just wanted to randomly kill civilians, it has the firepower to flatten all of Beirut. The high civilian death count is inexcusible, but Israel is not the sole culprit.