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mraph33 wrote:

freza wrote:mraph33

Your avatar makes me laugh. It is quite funny.

I believe in peace.
But I'm glad it entertains you

It amuses me, not so much entertains me.

I believe in peace too.

Israel also claims to believe in peace! Haha! Interesting, how some people interpret peace...

Is this a discussion about Lebanon and Israel, or for taking pot shots at someone's avatar and making judgements on whether posters believe in peace or not.

kanelli wrote:Is this a discussion about Lebanon and Israel, or for taking pot shots at someone's avatar and making judgements on whether posters believe in peace or not.

Well, if you want to be particular about things, this was actually a thread about banned weapons used by the Israeli forces against Lebanese civilians..

I'm sure peace guys and gals are not the ultra-sensitive type who can't take a jab or two.

freza wrote:

kanelli wrote:Is this a discussion about Lebanon and Israel, or for taking pot shots at someone's avatar and making judgements on whether posters believe in peace or not.

Well, if you want to be particular about things, this was actually a thread about banned weapons used by the Israeli forces against Lebanese civilians..

I'm sure peace guys and gals are not the ultra-sensitive type who can't take a jab or two.

Actaully I'm more offended that you didn't like the orignial artwork. I'm sure there are a lot of people who are amused by the message

mraph33 wrote:

freza wrote:

kanelli wrote:Is this a discussion about Lebanon and Israel, or for taking pot shots at someone's avatar and making judgements on whether posters believe in peace or not.

Well, if you want to be particular about things, this was actually a thread about banned weapons used by the Israeli forces against Lebanese civilians..

I'm sure peace guys and gals are not the ultra-sensitive type who can't take a jab or two.

Actaully I'm more offended that you didn't like the orignial artwork. I'm sure there are a lot of people who are amused by the message

No, I don't really like it, sorry because I don't aim to offend but I think it's very unrealistic and wishy washy. Kinda like a Hallmark Moments card, sweet and sentimental, BUT its just that - a dreamy wish.

Well as Gandi said "Be the change you want to see in the world."
And there's nothing wishy-washy about believing in peace.

She'll probably find Gandhi's words cheezy and unrealistic too.

I said, in case you didn't catch it, that I also believe in peace.

But it is obvious, to anyone with half a brain, that Israel DOES NOT believe in peace. So what are the Lebanese to do? Let themselves get slaughtered? Welcome the occupiers into their land? I guess that's some people's version of peace, is to surrender to destruction, humiliation and occupation ...

Who has said in this thread that Lebanon should surrender to Israel and be occupied? Some of us have said that Israel does not deserve to be wiped off the planet, but we have also acknowledged that they are acting in a completely unacceptable way and need to be stopped. I think you continue to miss that point.

kanelli wrote:Who has said in this thread that Lebanon should surrender to Israel and be occupied? Some of us have said that Israel does not deserve to be wiped off the planet, but we have also acknowledged that they are acting in a completely unacceptable way and need to be stopped. I think you continue to miss that point.

I was asking what the solution to peace was, because some of you seem to think that Hezbollah is equally responsible for this bloodbath. So what do you want Hezbollah to do or not do? You know that if they lay down their weapons, they are most likely going to get slaughtered...

Also, you've been saying that some of us want to see Israel wiped off the face of the map, that's ridiculous. That is the last thing I would want for Israel. I do want to see the Israeli *regime* punished, but I don't want to see any country wiped off the face of the earth.

So Kanelli, what is your solution? I'm talking about palpable, realistic solutions, not a "let's just get along" type of empty phrase.

Israel suffers a paucity of intelligence on the whereabouts of Hizbullah members, which is why it has been targeting the homes of their families. But this does not justify the systematic bombardment of Lebanese society, and the attempts to destroy its economy. This is the epitome of terrorism: the incitement of terror in a civilian populace by unleashing massive violence and destruction against it in an attempt to compel the people's political leaders to act against the Lebanese resistance or to change their positions.

from : http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2006/804/op1.htm

The article is great, i recommend reading it. I have lots of respect for Dr. Azmi.

freza wrote:

kanelli wrote:Who has said in this thread that Lebanon should surrender to Israel and be occupied? Some of us have said that Israel does not deserve to be wiped off the planet, but we have also acknowledged that they are acting in a completely unacceptable way and need to be stopped. I think you continue to miss that point.

I was asking what the solution to peace was, because some of you seem to think that Hezbollah is equally responsible for this bloodbath. So what do you want Hezbollah to do or not do? You know that if they lay down their weapons, they are most likely going to get slaughtered...

Also, you've been saying that some of us want to see Israel wiped off the face of the map, that's ridiculous. That is the last thing I would want for Israel. I do want to see the Israeli *regime* punished, but I don't want to see any country wiped off the face of the earth.

So Kanelli, what is your solution? I'm talking about palpable, realistic solutions, not a "let's just get along" type of empty phrase.

How about releasing the two soldiers and refraining from firing rockets. This would be a show of good will that they are ready to negotiate a ceasefire ..... they can still remain armed and oppose any Israeli's who are advancing into Lebanon but it might be enough to get the negotiations off the battlefield and save some bloodshed.

ajb wrote:How about releasing the two soldiers and refraining from firing rockets. This would be a show of good will that they are ready to negotiate a ceasefire ..... they can still remain armed and oppose any Israeli's who are advancing into Lebanon but it might be enough to get the negotiations off the battlefield and save some bloodshed.

AJB, a ceasefire is initiated by the agressor not by the party that is just using it as a way to defend itself !!! .. Israel should cease the fire .. since most of the fire is coming from her .. I dont think two people disagree that the ceasefire is something israel should do and not hezbollah. After the ceasefire negotiations can commence. That is pretty much an international consensus except for big ol USA and its lil puppy Israel.

MaaaD wrote:

ajb wrote:How about releasing the two soldiers and refraining from firing rockets. This would be a show of good will that they are ready to negotiate a ceasefire ..... they can still remain armed and oppose any Israeli's who are advancing into Lebanon but it might be enough to get the negotiations off the battlefield and save some bloodshed.

AJB, a ceasefire is initiated by the agressor not by the party that is just using it as a way to defend itself !!! .. Israel should cease the fire .. since most of the fire is coming from her .. I dont think two people disagree that the ceasefire is something israel should do and not hezbollah. After the ceasefire negotiations can commence. That is pretty much an international consensus except for big ol USA and its lil puppy Israel.

There was also an international consensus that Hezbollah started this whole bloody and destructive escapade when it kipnapped the 2 soldiers.

MaaaD wrote:

ajb wrote:How about releasing the two soldiers and refraining from firing rockets. This would be a show of good will that they are ready to negotiate a ceasefire ..... they can still remain armed and oppose any Israeli's who are advancing into Lebanon but it might be enough to get the negotiations off the battlefield and save some bloodshed.

AJB, a ceasefire is initiated by the agressor not by the party that is just using it as a way to defend itself !!! .. Israel should cease the fire .. since most of the fire is coming from her .. I dont think two people disagree that the ceasefire is something israel should do and not hezbollah. After the ceasefire negotiations can commence. That is pretty much an international consensus except for big ol USA and its lil puppy Israel.

I dont disagree in theory but Freza was asking for a solution to help stop the violence .... those are my thoughts as one way to get there. Israel are using the capture of its soldiers and the firing of rockets as the excuse to attack Lebanon ... if you remove the excuse then things could be better for all involved.

I can't believe the naivety of some folks!!

My goodness, some still believe that this attack was the sole result of the abduction of two soldiers????!!

I think those many people are simply lacking a basic understanding in regards to the politics and history of this region. But lack of knowledge should not equate to lack of logic! Where has people's logic gone?

Please read that Al-Ahram article that Maaad recommended. It's well written and ENLIGHTENING.

freza wrote:I can't believe the naivety of some folks!!

My goodness, some still believe that this attack was the sole result of the abduction of two soldiers????!!

I think those many people are simply lacking a basic understanding in regards to the politics and history of this region. But lack of knowledge should not equate to lack of logic! Where has people's logic gone?

Please read that Al-Ahram article that Maaad recommended. It's well written and ENLIGHTENING.

No Freza I dont think this is because of the abduction of two soldiers but that IS the excuse Israel is using ... like I said remove the excuse

So, you admit that it's an excuse?


So Hezbollah has to cater to the whims of Israel now? Ha!


Read the article please, it's very good.

Saudi Arabia and the Arab League blames Hezbollah for starting the conflict.
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/ ... 1FDA5E.htm
And Mahmoud Komati of Hezbollah said in an widely quoted interview, that they were suprised by the Israeli response to the kidnapping.

Is Israel's reaction disproportional and criminal? No question.
Did this start because of an Israeli reaction to a Hezbollah instigation? No question.

freza wrote:So, you admit that it's an excuse?


So Hezbollah has to cater to the whims of Israel now? Ha!


Read the article please, it's very good.

Ive never tried to debate whether its an excuse or not IT IS AN EXCUSE. I have zero support for Israel in what they are doing to the innocent civilians of Lebanon. What you asked for was solutions .... do you not agree that on an international/political level that removing all the excuses for Israel to continue attacking could aid in a ceasefire or at least increased international support for a ceasefire ..... it would be increasingly difficult for Israel to defend what they are doing.

And yes maybe in this case Lebanon does have to cater to Israels whims to get the argument off the battlefield (where Lebanons chances are minimal) and into negotiations where at least they stand a chance and the innocent are not continuing to be killed.

mraph33 wrote:Saudi Arabia and the Arab League blames Hezbollah for starting the conflict.
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/ ... 1FDA5E.htm
And Mahmoud Komati of Hezbollah said in an widely quoted interview, that they were suprised by the Israeli response to the kidnapping.

Is Israel's reaction disproportional and criminal? No question.
Did this start because of an Israeli reaction to a Hezbollah instigation? No question.

My pebble (above comment) didn't hit you? OK, that happens some times..

Saudi Arabia, wow! Are you seriou? KSA - a government, eh, un-elected monarchy with exemplary credibility and definitely not anyone's tool, much less an American tool. No never!

Again, what is it that some of you don't understand about "puppet regimes" ? KSA (the monarchy) is only interested in retaining power. It sees the Shia growing in power as a threat. And it pretty much follows the orders of the US. Is this news to you? Just like Jordan, Egypt and even Syria (with a twist), these regimes are only interested in retaining their pathetic artificial status.

ajb wrote:

freza wrote:So, you admit that it's an excuse?


So Hezbollah has to cater to the whims of Israel now? Ha!


Read the article please, it's very good.

Ive never tried to debate whether its an excuse or not IT IS AN EXCUSE. I have zero support for Israel in what they are doing to the innocent civilians of Lebanon. What you asked for was solutions .... do you not agree that on an international/political level that removing all the excuses for Israel to continue attacking could aid in a ceasefire or at least increased international support for a ceasefire ..... it would be increasingly difficult for Israel to defend what they are doing.

And yes maybe in this case Lebanon does have to cater to Israels whims to get the argument off the battlefield (where Lebanons chances are minimal) and into negotiations where at least they stand a chance and the innocent are not continuing to be killed.

This makes no sense. This is akin to surrendering to blackmail, most importantly this is surrendering people's rights. You see what you're saying now? You want Hezbollah to surrender their right to exist. Ouch. That coming from Israel? Ironic, isn't it?

Israel wants Hezbollah to disappear from Lebanon (I would say to disappear from the face of the earth, but let's not go there). Israel wants a proxy puppet regime to be installed in Lebanon. And who knows, it might even want to do a land grab, after all, Israel HAS been grabbing Arab lands since 1946.

So, let Hezbollah and the Lebanese government just give in to blackmail? For the sake of stopping the bloodshed? Is that your solution?

freza wrote:

ajb wrote:

freza wrote:So, you admit that it's an excuse?


So Hezbollah has to cater to the whims of Israel now? Ha!


Read the article please, it's very good.

Ive never tried to debate whether its an excuse or not IT IS AN EXCUSE. I have zero support for Israel in what they are doing to the innocent civilians of Lebanon. What you asked for was solutions .... do you not agree that on an international/political level that removing all the excuses for Israel to continue attacking could aid in a ceasefire or at least increased international support for a ceasefire ..... it would be increasingly difficult for Israel to defend what they are doing.

And yes maybe in this case Lebanon does have to cater to Israels whims to get the argument off the battlefield (where Lebanons chances are minimal) and into negotiations where at least they stand a chance and the innocent are not continuing to be killed.

This makes no sense. This is akin to surrendering to blackmail, most importantly this is surrendering people's rights. You see what you're saying now? You want Hezbollah to surrender their right to exist. Ouch. That coming from Israel? Ironic, isn't it?

Israel wants Hezbollah to disappear from Lebanon (I would say to disappear from the face of the earth, but let's not go there). Israel wants a proxy puppet regime to be installed in Lebanon. And who knows, it might even want to do a land grab, after all, Israel HAS been grabbing Arab lands since 1946.

So, let Hezbollah and the Lebanese government just give in to blackmail? For the sake of stopping the bloodshed? Is that your solution?

Well if you hadn't realised the current resistance isnt exactly working so well ... Israel is systematically bombing the $hit out of Lebanon under the excuse that Hezbollah initiated the agression. Is not the most important thing at present to try and stop the bombing and then work towards a long term peace plan .... maybe I am naieve in this sense ... maybe there is far too much agression from both parties to ever come to a peaceful co-existance?? Maybe you would prefer to fight this out once and for all until one party no longer exists.

freza wrote:[
This makes no sense. This is akin to surrendering to blackmail, most importantly this is surrendering people's rights. You see what you're saying now? You want Hezbollah to surrender their right to exist. Ouch. That coming from Israel? Ironic, isn't it?

Its got nothing to do with Hezbollah surrendering its about removing the excuses from Israel so that they no longer can blame Hezbollah for the current situation. If they do not cease then keep fighting send more rockets over the border ... all that will have been lost in trying is 2 captive soldiers ..... and the international support gained from being seen to do the right thing towards peace will be hugely beneficial to the cause

freza wrote:Again, what is it that some of you don't understand about "puppet regimes" ? KSA (the monarchy) is only interested in retaining power. It sees the Shia growing in power as a threat. And it pretty much follows the orders of the US. Is this news to you? Just like Jordan, Egypt and even Syria (with a twist), these regimes are only interested in retaining their pathetic artificial status.

So much for Arab unity

Its got nothing to do with Hezbollah surrendering its about removing the excuses from Israel so that they no longer can blame Hezbollah for the current situation. Hmm, again this does not make sense. Eliminating Hezbollah is the main aim! If they do not cease then keep fighting send more rockets over the border ... all that will have been lost in trying is 2 captive soldiers ..... and the international support gained from being seen to do the right thing towards peace will be hugely beneficial to the cause Again the attacker, as in full out military attack, was Israel. Common sense would tell you that kidnapping does not equal war. And like I've repeated numerous times, Israel was going to invade regardless of the kidnapping, they would of made someting up for lack of a reason. So in other words, they were going to find *any excuse* to invade, they were just waiting for the moment, but the real aim is Hezbollah. Now I'm really confused at to what exactly you're saying, because it still seems that you don't understand that Israel is hell bent on removing Hezbollah, whether they surrender or not, whether they stop sending missiles over the border or not, whether you remove *an excuse* or not. Are you saying that this is perfectly OK? I also think that you're not addressing my direct points (from my previous post). Ah one last thing, Hezbollah has agreed to cease-fire, per a Lebanese government peace plan. Israel is not accepting this plan. Try to keep up with the news.

mraph33 wrote:

freza wrote:Again, what is it that some of you don't understand about "puppet regimes" ? KSA (the monarchy) is only interested in retaining power. It sees the Shia growing in power as a threat. And it pretty much follows the orders of the US. Is this news to you? Just like Jordan, Egypt and even Syria (with a twist), these regimes are only interested in retaining their pathetic artificial status.

So much for Arab unity

Arab unity, Arab schmunity!

Gutless, ball-less Arab regimes are also to blame for this bloodshed - ah the pathetic weak that choose to be weak.

freza wrote:Its got nothing to do with Hezbollah surrendering its about removing the excuses from Israel so that they no longer can blame Hezbollah for the current situation. Hmm, again this does not make sense. Eliminating Hezbollah is the main aim! If they do not cease then keep fighting send more rockets over the border ... all that will have been lost in trying is 2 captive soldiers ..... and the international support gained from being seen to do the right thing towards peace will be hugely beneficial to the cause Again the attacker, as in full out military attack, was Israel. Common sense would tell you that kidnapping does not equal war. And like I've repeated numerous times, Israel was going to invade regardless of the kidnapping, they would of made someting up for lack of a reason. So in other words, they were going to find *any excuse* to invade, they were just waiting for the moment, but the real aim is Hezbollah. Now I'm really confused at to what exactly you're saying, because it still seems that you don't understand that Israel is hell bent on removing Hezbollah, whether they surrender or not, whether they stop sending missiles over the border or not, whether you remove *an excuse* or not. Are you saying that this is perfectly OK? I also think that you're not addressing my direct points (from my previous post). Ah one last thing, Hezbollah has agreed to cease-fire, per a Lebanese government peace plan. Israel is not accepting this plan. Try to keep up with the news.

Is it the protection of Lebanon that you are after or the protection of Hezbollah?

You seem to be very good at picking to pieces my suggestions for a solution ... but you have yet to suggest anything yourself as to how to end the bloodshed?

And to address your previous post the removal of hezbollah maybe Israels goal but they are going to achieve it alot more easily through war than diplomacy .... do you not agree?

Is it the protection of Lebanon that you are after or the protection of Hezbollah?

Well since the Lebanese military is so magnificent. Look at how they've responded to this attack and protected their country... Oh snap! well at least they're helping with protecting the UN and US embassy... In all fairness, they're also assisting is providing civilian aid.

You seem to be very good at picking to pieces my suggestions for a solution ... but you have yet to suggest anything yourself as to how to end the bloodshed?

I think Syria needs to get involved. Syria owes it to Lebanon to get involved and it's a shame, straight out shame that it is cowering in a corner while Lebanon is being brutalized this way. The Syrian regime has the weapons and the reason, but so far it has lacked the courage and heart to attack Israel. It can't put off the confrontation forever. I think Syria needs to assist Hezbollah and heavily punish Israel's military. I think that neutral countries should grow a spine and take diplomatic steps to condemn Israel's actions - steps like resolutions, embargos, and economic ramifications against Israel. This is all possible. Teach the bully a lesson, but make it as bloodless as possible.

And to address your previous post the removal of hezbollah maybe Israels goal but they are going to achieve it alot more easily through war than diplomacy .... do you not agree?

Why on earth does Israel have a right to remove Hezbollah? Hezbollah arose because of Israel's invasion and occupation. Hezbollah has every right to defend itself and to exist.

ajb i thing you are wasting your time with freza - lost cause