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Interesting that you conveniently ignored by question about what you'd think if a tighter regime was implemented in Lebanon.

Surely the thought that Iran has a helping hand in all of this for their own agendas is not a good thing.

You obviously didn't go back and read the rephrasing of my original post. I said that Hezbollah are not recognised by many nations as a legitimate force. Yes, they are not recognized by the US, Israel and its closest allies. The same allies that told us that Saddam Hussein had WMD and that he had Al Qaeda connections. The same governments that are fighting for "Freedom" and nothing else in the Middle East. So of course, let's believe them when they state that Hezbollah is a terrorists organization! Hahaha. Really, how naive can we be? And they are not originally Lebanese but an Iranian faction set-up as a resistance army - google history of Hezbollah if you don't believe me! Do you actually believe that Hezbollah and its supporters are Iranians living in Lebanon?? Do you believe that are not originally Lebanese? Really do you believe this??

Also if you needed any more proof that Iran are behind them, the moron that is the President of Iran put the Hezbollah flags on his desk during parliament and UN meetings, proving that he has no interest in seeing a ceasefire. I KNOW that Iran supports them and are influenced by them, who doesn't know this??? (((Hello))) I actually think it's great that Hezbollah in Lebanon are getting weapons from Iran. I never questioned who is backing Hezbollah! What I'm saying is that Hezbollah is greatly influenced by Iran, but they are an independent Lebanese militant group after all. Now, talking of morons, let's mention the biggest morons... Bush & Blair, shall we?

Open your eyes for goodness sake. Yeah, if only you could take your own advise....it would be sweet.

If the US is supplying Israel with weapons that it uses to attack innocent civilians in Lebanon, it can't really complain about Iran or anyone else supplying Hezbollah. That would be hypocritical.

I do not believe Hezbollah are the Lebanese army and therefore cannot be called a legitimate force. The politcial party side of things maybe be legitimate but the fighters certainly are not. They are terrorists or guerillas.

It is very problematic when there is no national army involvement because then rules of engagement for war are not the same. It is much easier for civilians to be targeted in cases where small, separate, unofficial groups start attacking another country. This is the case with Hezbollah and other groups that have been called terrorist groups or guerilla groups.

"They are using suction bombs that implode our buildings," he added, "With implosive bombs...instead of the glass blasted out, it is inside the building. These kill everyone inside the building. There are rarely survivors when they use these bombs"

An Israeli military spokesman told Reuters news agency, "Everything the Israeli defence forces are using is legitimate."

Israelis Accused of Using Illegal Weapons
Dahr Jamail


http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=34132

Choco you really need to read up about Hezbollah's history better. They are just a religious shia faction that spurred out of the less religious shia group Amal (that is now headed by Nabih Berry the speaker of lebanese parliament).

Hezbollah has done alot in terms of social services in the south and have been able to legitmately drive out the occupying forces out of south of lebanon. To label them as "terrorists" (which has become an equivlant of not on the US side) is absurd. And to say that they are originally iranian is even more absurd. Come on, i would think you know better.

I also recommend you read the article in the "reap what you sow" thread (if you havent already) to see how Israel is the one behind the rise of the resistance movements Hamas and Hizbullah.

BTW they were confirmed as a legitimate resistance movement by the lebanese goverment itself (which is not only shia), and the right to return back land and prisoners by means of armed resistance is in the lebanese constitution. Thus what Hezbollah did in kidnapping the soldiers to exchange them for prisoners was not illegal and perfectly in line with the lebanese constitution.

Not terrorists? I watched a doco the other day in which they were hijacking planes, taking hostages and blowing up buildings??

ajb wrote:Not terrorists? I watched a doco the other day in which they were hijacking planes, taking hostages and blowing up buildings??

Hezbollah has always been very careful about avoiding the targetting of civilians, i am not sure what your documentary was about .. but for sure not hezbollah they have niver hijacked a plane, kidnapped civilans, or blow up a building. Actually the EU has not classified them as a terrorist organization although the US keeps pressuring them to do so.

It was about them hijacking a plane from Beirut and trying to land in another part of the ME (sorry can't remember exactly where) to force officials to talk about prisoner release deals but then the runways were blocked so they ended up having to fly to Italy to refuel. Eventually after several attempts to try and land where they wanted to they returned to Beirut where they loaded the cockpit with explosive and the cabin with grenades.

Unfortunately I didnt get to see the whole thing but I do remember them letting the women and children off the plane but they did throw one man out of the side of the plane on to the tarmac.

The doco was more on hijackings than Hezbollah but they were definitely mentioned ..... I think it was on the national geographic channel

ajb wrote:It was about them hijacking a plane from Beirut and trying to land in another part of the ME (sorry can't remember exactly where) to force officials to talk about prisoner release deals but then the runways were blocked so they ended up having to fly to Italy to refuel. Eventually after several attempts to try and land where they wanted to they returned to Beirut where they loaded the cockpit with explosive and the cabin with grenades.

Unfortunately I didnt get to see the whole thing but I do remember them letting the women and children off the plane but they did throw one man out of the side of the plane on to the tarmac.

The doco was more on hijackings than Hezbollah but they were definitely mentioned ..... I think it was on the national geographic channel

you are talking about this incident:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_847

The group who hijacked were Shia Muslims from Lebanon, they were never part of hezbollah but rather a group who called themselves the "Organization for the Oppressed of the Earth".

ajb wrote:It was about them hijacking a plane from Beirut and trying to land in another part of the ME (sorry can't remember exactly where) to force officials to talk about prisoner release deals but then the runways were blocked so they ended up having to fly to Italy to refuel. Eventually after several attempts to try and land where they wanted to they returned to Beirut where they loaded the cockpit with explosive and the cabin with grenades.

Unfortunately I didnt get to see the whole thing but I do remember them letting the women and children off the plane but they did throw one man out of the side of the plane on to the tarmac.

The doco was more on hijackings than Hezbollah but they were definitely mentioned ..... I think it was on the national geographic channel

This was indeed an act of terrorism but it was NOT directly executed by Hezbollah, the group that carried this act was most likely an offspring of Hezbollah. It seems that you're trying to define an entire political and military group by scratching for motives to accuse Hezbollah of illegitamacy - these isolated incidents are not going to cut it.

Some people would argue that the US and UK marines that have committed rape and/or murder in Iraq are rogue elements that don't represent the entire US/UK marines or military. Would you agree with this? But then again, you classify all of Hezbollah's military arm as terrorists? Hhhhmmm.

It's interesting how you jump to call questionable Hezbollah actions "terrorism" but I don't see you doing the same with Israel. Taking entire villages and cities hostage (Gaza and West Bank); keeping them under fire and under threat, confining people to their homes sometimes for weeks on end, denying them health care, depriving them of their basic human rights...is NOT terrorism? Really??

MaaaD wrote:

ajb wrote:Not terrorists? I watched a doco the other day in which they were hijacking planes, taking hostages and blowing up buildings??

Hezbollah has always been very careful about avoiding the targetting of civilians, i am not sure what your documentary was about .. but for sure not hezbollah they have niver hijacked a plane, kidnapped civilans, or blow up a building. Actually the EU has not classified them as a terrorist organization although the US keeps pressuring them to do so.

I don't know about any hijackings, but they have been firing rockets into northern Israel for quite some time. It didn't start with this recent war. Certainly the rockets that they fire were not aimed at specific military targets.

mraph33 wrote:

MaaaD wrote:

ajb wrote:Not terrorists? I watched a doco the other day in which they were hijacking planes, taking hostages and blowing up buildings??

Hezbollah has always been very careful about avoiding the targetting of civilians, i am not sure what your documentary was about .. but for sure not hezbollah they have niver hijacked a plane, kidnapped civilans, or blow up a building. Actually the EU has not classified them as a terrorist organization although the US keeps pressuring them to do so.

I don't know about any hijackings, but they have been firing rockets into northern Israel for quite some time. It didn't start with this recent war. Certainly the rockets that they fire were not aimed at specific military targets.

That is different, they are at war with Israel. Israel has done much worse to civilians (i.e Qana in 96) but i rarely hear anyone calling Israel a terrorist state, yet are surprised when i refuse to brand hezbollah as terrorists. We can go on forever like this. The whole point of this is that Hezbollah is not a terrorist organization, they are a legitimate resistance that is trying to free up the land occupied by israel and the prisoners taken by them. But i guess one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter

mraph33 wrote:

MaaaD wrote:

ajb wrote:Not terrorists? I watched a doco the other day in which they were hijacking planes, taking hostages and blowing up buildings??

Hezbollah has always been very careful about avoiding the targetting of civilians, i am not sure what your documentary was about .. but for sure not hezbollah they have niver hijacked a plane, kidnapped civilans, or blow up a building. Actually the EU has not classified them as a terrorist organization although the US keeps pressuring them to do so.

I don't know about any hijackings, but they have been firing rockets into northern Israel for quite some time. It didn't start with this recent war. Certainly the rockets that they fire were not aimed at specific military targets.

Unfortunately Hezbollah lacks the precision weapons that Israel has. You know, like those super precise missiles that Israel "accidentally" struck at the clearly marked UN (UNTSO) post in Lebanon, several times...precision, yup.

freza wrote:

ajb wrote:It was about them hijacking a plane from Beirut and trying to land in another part of the ME (sorry can't remember exactly where) to force officials to talk about prisoner release deals but then the runways were blocked so they ended up having to fly to Italy to refuel. Eventually after several attempts to try and land where they wanted to they returned to Beirut where they loaded the cockpit with explosive and the cabin with grenades.

Unfortunately I didnt get to see the whole thing but I do remember them letting the women and children off the plane but they did throw one man out of the side of the plane on to the tarmac.

The doco was more on hijackings than Hezbollah but they were definitely mentioned ..... I think it was on the national geographic channel

This was indeed an act of terrorism but it was NOT directly executed by Hezbollah, the group that carried this act was most likely an offspring of Hezbollah. It seems that you're trying to define an entire political and military group by scratching for motives to accuse Hezbollah of illegitamacy - these isolated incidents are not going to cut it.

Some people would argue that the US and UK marines that have committed rape and/or murder in Iraq are rogue elements that don't represent the entire US/UK marines or military. Would you agree with this? But then again, you classify all of Hezbollah's military arm as terrorists? Hhhhmmm.

The question is if Hezbollah supported this action. The US Marine Corps don't support or tolerate marines who rape or pillage.

mraph33 wrote:

freza wrote:

ajb wrote:It was about them hijacking a plane from Beirut and trying to land in another part of the ME (sorry can't remember exactly where) to force officials to talk about prisoner release deals but then the runways were blocked so they ended up having to fly to Italy to refuel. Eventually after several attempts to try and land where they wanted to they returned to Beirut where they loaded the cockpit with explosive and the cabin with grenades.

Unfortunately I didnt get to see the whole thing but I do remember them letting the women and children off the plane but they did throw one man out of the side of the plane on to the tarmac.

The doco was more on hijackings than Hezbollah but they were definitely mentioned ..... I think it was on the national geographic channel

This was indeed an act of terrorism but it was NOT directly executed by Hezbollah, the group that carried this act was most likely an offspring of Hezbollah. It seems that you're trying to define an entire political and military group by scratching for motives to accuse Hezbollah of illegitamacy - these isolated incidents are not going to cut it.

Some people would argue that the US and UK marines that have committed rape and/or murder in Iraq are rogue elements that don't represent the entire US/UK marines or military. Would you agree with this? But then again, you classify all of Hezbollah's military arm as terrorists? Hhhhmmm.

The question is if Hezbollah supported this action. The US Marine Corps don't support or tolerate marines who rape or pillage.

No, no of course they don't support them. They just cover up for them until the story gets out and they have no choice but to admit the truth and punish the crimes.

mraph33 wrote:The US Marine Corps don't support or tolerate marines who rape or pillage.

give me a break, its in the culture. I think we only hear about a few of what really goes one. Iraq, Phillipines, Japan, even in the bases in Virginia.. list goes on.

freza wrote:This was indeed an act of terrorism but it was NOT directly executed by Hezbollah, the group that carried this act was most likely an offspring of Hezbollah. It seems that you're trying to define an entire political and military group by scratching for motives to accuse Hezbollah of illegitamacy - these isolated incidents are not going to cut it.

Some people would argue that the US and UK marines that have committed rape and/or murder in Iraq are rogue elements that don't represent the entire US/UK marines or military. Would you agree with this? But then again, you classify all of Hezbollah's military arm as terrorists? Hhhhmmm.

It's interesting how you jump to call questionable Hezbollah actions "terrorism" but I don't see you doing the same with Israel. Taking entire villages and cities hostage (Gaza and West Bank); keeping them under fire and under threat, confining people to their homes sometimes for weeks on end, denying them health care, depriving them of their basic human rights...is NOT terrorism? Really??

I guess it comes down to a definition of terrorism. I would consider any militant group that is not the official army of the country to be either terrorists or a guerilla group. For the record I have not shown any kind of support for Israel and I find their current actions ing and Im sure they are guilty of war crimes.

But the problem arises that if Hezbollah are not terrorists and are in fact a legitimate part of the Lebanese defence force then their recent actions were basically Lebanon declaring war on Israel which I dont think many people would agree with.

freza wrote:

mraph33 wrote:

MaaaD wrote:

ajb wrote:Not terrorists? I watched a doco the other day in which they were hijacking planes, taking hostages and blowing up buildings??

Hezbollah has always been very careful about avoiding the targetting of civilians, i am not sure what your documentary was about .. but for sure not hezbollah they have niver hijacked a plane, kidnapped civilans, or blow up a building. Actually the EU has not classified them as a terrorist organization although the US keeps pressuring them to do so.

I don't know about any hijackings, but they have been firing rockets into northern Israel for quite some time. It didn't start with this recent war. Certainly the rockets that they fire were not aimed at specific military targets.

Unfortunately Hezbollah lacks the precision weapons that Israel has. You know, like those super precise missiles that Israel "accidentally" struck at the clearly marked UN (UNTSO) post in Lebanon, several times...precision, yup.

One has nothing to do with the other. I'm not defending Israel's actions. But its incorrect to state the Hezbollah doesn't target civilians.

How about the gassing of Kurds by Saddam - was that terrorism? Or just genocide?

How about the guys who armed Saddam? Are they guilty of supporting terrorism?

How about regimes that supported the overthrow of democratically elected governments? Hmm - let's see, Chile, Nicaragua spring to mind.

Or how about invading a country and overthrowing the government - is that terrorism - or just state aggression? Remember Grenada?

(The answers to all of the above are the good old USofA)

mraph33 wrote:

freza wrote:

mraph33 wrote:

MaaaD wrote:

ajb wrote:Not terrorists? I watched a doco the other day in which they were hijacking planes, taking hostages and blowing up buildings??

Hezbollah has always been very careful about avoiding the targetting of civilians, i am not sure what your documentary was about .. but for sure not hezbollah they have niver hijacked a plane, kidnapped civilans, or blow up a building. Actually the EU has not classified them as a terrorist organization although the US keeps pressuring them to do so.

I don't know about any hijackings, but they have been firing rockets into northern Israel for quite some time. It didn't start with this recent war. Certainly the rockets that they fire were not aimed at specific military targets.

Unfortunately Hezbollah lacks the precision weapons that Israel has. You know, like those super precise missiles that Israel "accidentally" struck at the clearly marked UN (UNTSO) post in Lebanon, several times...precision, yup.

One has nothing to do with the other. I'm not defending Israel's actions. But its incorrect to state the Hezbollah doesn't target civilians.

What a statement! Israel has up to now, killed more children than militants (look at the statistics for goodness sake!) yet here you find a few people trying to question the legitimacy of Hezbollah and stating that Hezbollah TARGET civilians. When was the last time Hezbollah's F-16s went into Israeli airspace to drop precision missiles into civilian TARGETS ?? Oh, right, never. Their ground-to-ground missles, are NOT precision weapons, unlike Israel's multitide of sophisticated weapons. (Katyusha for your info, are anything but precise in their targets, and the only target missle that Hezbollah has used up to now, has been the radar guided missle that hit an Israeli war ship). Israel has in fact been targeting civilians and peacekeepers, look at the evidence. This is common sense for most people, but you apparently will believe what you want, facts be damned.

I dont think anyone has disputed that Israel have targeted and killed civilians and UN workers (other than the Israeli's) but there was a comment on here that Hezbollah are careful not to target civilians which by your own admission they simply cannot do with their current arsenal.

So Hezbollah is immune from criticism because of what israel is doing? The fact that they don't have the same firepower as Israel doens't make them righteous. If they had an F-16 to drop an atomic bomb on Tel-Aviv they would.

mraph33 - interesting point about the F16 and nuclear capability.

North Korea, one could argue, shows that if Hezbollah had nuclear capability, then Israel would not be killing civilians right now.

You reap what you sow - Hezbollah grew out of a need for a resistance to Israeli occupation of Lebanon and agression against the PLO.

It is just human nature to want to inflict pain on those who are killing your loved ones - it shows that Hezbollah are human, and not (as Washington and Tel Aviv will have us think) that they are sub-human (aka Terrorists).

I do think that Hezbollah has so far tried to avoid civilian casualties on the Israeli side, it would only make sense to hit as many military targets as possible; civilians deaths on the Israeli side have been both unintended and consequence of un-precise weapons, imo.

Again look at the evidence, Hezbollah's fiercest battles have been on the ground; with their attacks directly aimed at Israeli troops on Lebanese territory.

But I would also think that some elements of Hezbollah would want to retaliate in the same way that Israel has attacked - by killing civilians indiscriminately. Yet, we're still not seeing this. Instead of accusing Hezbollah of targeting civilians, which is not true (yet), I would point out that so far they've shown a lot of restraint in view of the savagery that Israel has enacted upon Lebanese civilians.

mraph33

Your avatar makes me laugh. It is quite funny.

"IF"

Ha! if, if..... ah, how about WHAT IS is going on? NOT "if". C'mon now. "If" Hezbollah had a nuclear bomb (which is quite improbable!). Israel has the nuclear weapons and the reality is not "if" Israel is destroying its neighbor, the reality is that it IS destroying it. This what counts, the REALITY of the situation.

"Ifs" are the laughable probability of WMD infamy. Why even go there again?????

freza wrote:mraph33

Your avatar makes me laugh. It is quite funny.

I believe in peace.
But I'm glad it entertains you