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Greetings,

I’m trying to put this in a way so non-Arabs or non-Muslims in general can understand the Islam point of view, rather thinking Islam is a "joy killer" and that Islam wasn't made so Muslims can have fun, because this's wrong, it's just, when God sent Islam to us, everything was just considered, so here I go trying to explain it.

1. Sexual diseases, this doesn't need to be explained! if there is no rule that stops you from having sex as much as you want with different women then it's so easy to catch HIV because condoms do not protect you 100% from getting HIV, and even if they do protect you from HIV still they won't protect you from skin-to-skin STD's

"Condoms may not work as well against STDs spread through skin-to-skin touching, like herpes and genital warts, because condoms may not cover the infected areas." From Washoe County District Health Department Web site.

2. Psychological problems, knowing that you are sleeping with a woman and knowing that woman might sleep or does sleep with other men will shake your trust in women, and incase you'll get married or you are married you won't be able to trust your wife 100% as you think all women are like the woman you slept with, this's one small aspect or example of the Psychological problems related to free sex in which I mean sex with no boundaries or limits, another example is, loving a woman you sleep with and pay would even be worse, because she's doing it for business ONLY, and this's very possible I knew a lot of people who did it, or even loving a girl who just wants fun...

3. Children, so, you slept with this hot girl you see in work everyday, and oops, the condom didn't work or you don't like using condoms, and oops she's pregnant!, are you going to marry her? Let’s say yes! Then I think this's a good thing to do, but what if its no? What will happen to the child? Abortion? You want to kill a soul? Ok let's say you do but she doesn’t! What will happen to this child? Who will raise him? How would you live with the fact that you have a child and you didn't want him!?

4. Troubles and a lot of troubles, in most of the Arab world, if a girl isn't virgin and she's not married, and neither divorced, 90% she's going to die! Either by killing her self or her family will kill her! this's because of old cultural issues while Islam didn't say kill a woman who have sex before marriage, Islam said to punish her, but not by death, and not even by seeing if she's virgin or not, in Islam, you need four witnesses to prove that this is a case of adultery, and then the man and the woman who did it will face punishment, so back to the troubles point, you don't want to see a woman you love dead! And you don't want to mess up her reputation.

anyways, I was trying to give SOME of the reasons which I THINK they are reasonable, I’d like it if you can provide more reasons why it is wrong to have sex with just anyone or just for fun, and I don't mean to offence any culture or anyone, and one last request, please don't turn this into a chat thread, if you have a comment please leave it, if you need to chat another member about something not related to this subject, please use the PMs, that was a request and not an order, and I force no one to do anything.

Thank you very much.

While I can appreciate your reasons as good modern interpretations, I don't know what where the considerations when the religous law was decreed long ago.
Many religions have this opposition to pre-marital sex, which to me is just another sign how outdated religions are. There was a time when people were getting married at 12,13 (I guess that's still the case in some cultures). But in the modern world, where people are getting married in their 20's,30's & even 40's, I don't think its realistic to have people abstain from what is one of our primal instincts for so many years.

Personally the views here are too simplistic and have not been explored properly. Condoms are the only way to protect yourself from HIV and the majority of STD's. The chance of breakage if used properly is very very slim. Also it's harder for a man to catch HIV from a woman than the other way around, for obvious reasons.

Even though you talk about skin to skin contracted STD's many people can be carriers and never ever know it, it has nothing to do with sleeping around, you could get married and still pass it to your spouse. The same goes for infections such as clymidia, some people just are carriers and never develop any symptoms at all.

The whole women must be a virgin thing, just goes to show the ignorance and arrogance of men. It's ok for them to mess around, but if a woman does it, she's in trouble. Plus the old tradition of checking the sheets after the wedding night for blood, is possibly one of the most ridiculous things ever, as not every woman bleeds when she makes love for the first time. If you are active and into sports or use tampons then the hymen can break at anytime, particularly if you undertake sports such as horseriding.

My personal opinion is it's all about education, if you know your stuff and are careful then there really is no issue.

After all hoe many marriages seriously stand the test of time these days? Not many, it's not worth it anymore.

Rami wrote:Greetings,


2. Psychological problems, knowing that you are sleeping with a woman and knowing that woman might sleep or does sleep with other men will shake your trust in women, and incase you'll get married or you are married you won't be able to trust your wife 100% as you think all women are like the woman you slept with, this's one small aspect or example of the Psychological problems related to free fun in which I mean fun with no boundaries or limits, another example is, loving a woman you sleep with and pay would even be worse, because she's doing it for business ONLY, and this's very possible I knew a lot of people who did it, or even loving a girl who just wants fun...

3. Children, so, you slept with this hot girl you see in work everyday, and oops, the condom didn't work or you don't like using condoms, and oops she's pregnant!, are you going to marry her? Let’s say yes! Then I think this's a good thing to do, but what if its no? What will happen to the child? Abortion? You want to kill a soul? Ok let's say you do but she doesn’t! What will happen to this child? Who will raise him? How would you live with the fact that you have a child and you didn't want him!?

4. Troubles and a lot of troubles, in most of the Arab world, if a girl isn't virgin and she's not married, and neither divorced, 90% she's going to die! Either by killing her self or her family will kill her! this's because of old cultural issues while Islam didn't say kill a woman who have fun before marriage, Islam said to punish her, but not by death, and not even by seeing if she's virgin or not, in Islam, you need four witnesses to prove that this is a case of adultery, and then the man and the woman who did it will face punishment, so back to the troubles point, you don't want to see a woman you love dead! And you don't want to mess up her reputation.



Thank you very much.

u said ur trying to be resonable...or smthing like that.
well
1. the psychological problems u talked about. if a man only uses a woman to have an orgasm, than that woman is a victime, not a fairy. on the other hand, if u as a man lose ur trust in women in general, just because u wanted to have fun, found and used a woman for that, than walked away, how do u even have the guts to raise this question? it was u as a man who looked for ur own pleasure, but after getting it, u consider those who gave that to u unworthy of trust...also, if women cannot be trusted anymore, just cos they live and have s.e.x however they want to, then why men expect a different treatement for themselves? if a woman who sleeps with several man is a fairy, that a man who does the same why is not a male whore?

2. about the children thing...that woman does not get pregnant by herself. so most probably its either because the man used a cheap quality condom, or didnt use anything, being to much into his own pleasure than keeping it safe for both of them. so why is just the woman who has to pay the price?

3. in some countries if a woman is raped, she is punished by being killed and the man gets away with it. the explanation-she got herself in a situation that made possible for her to be raped...for god sake!!!!

i said it several times, that in my opinion religion, belief is a very personal thing, nobody has any right to judge the other upon this. so i wont either. id never tell u or anybody for that matter what to believe in or how and upon what rules to live his/her life. but DONT use religion to justify stupidity, ignorance, repression of women etc. keep it to urself and run ur life as u think its the bets for u.

PS: i wrote this to all who believe this kind of thinking is correct, not particulary to u

Rami dont mind but i thought i was going through one of my pharmacy classes again .

as far as the post go's i think nothing is better than educating people about whats right and whats wrong and leave them either to implement it or forget it.

jerry

raidah, your reply was a bit "harsh" but despite this fact, i'll reply to your reply..

i didn't and i will never try to justify what you call stupidity by religion, i was trying to justify one aspect of my religion which im proud of, and the reason i tried to justify it is because i hate it when people judge it without knowing anything about it except what they see in the stupid media around the world...

second thing, i said it and i say it again islam is against killing for the honor sake! specially in this case you can't kill because you think your relative is a whore or whatever! and if a woman was raped, in a true muslim family or in a good family and when i say a good family i mean a loving caring family, the family will never ever treat thier daughter in a different way, they'll try to ease her pain and never mark her as a "raped woman", and the one who raped her is the one who'll be sought and punished and treated as a dog among the whole socity that if he lived!.

and sex with condoms is like masturbating with a plastic bag wraped around your hand! it's silly! and it's stupid to have a realtion ship based on the quality of the condom! it's even SICK to do so.

last thing to say, i respect women very very much, because i have a mother, a sister, and i know one thing, a man could never be perfect without a great woman by his side.

next time you reply try to be objective and not destructive.

Chocoholic, oh Chocoholic what can i say, well, i hate it when people take my words and twist it, and you and raidah made a twister out of my words, i never said it's ok for a man to be messing around and a girl to stay virgin, and i repeat it and write it in bold I DIDN'T SAY A GIRL WHO'S NOT VIRGIN DESERVES TO BE KILLED please don't skip through stuff, and read stuff with a lil bit of attention.

and about condoms, i'd love to quote again but from a different site, as i search before i post when it comes to debated issues

9 Are condoms enough?

No. It is essential that all people, including young people and women and girls, have access to the information, education and life skills that enable them to have safe and responsible sexual relations and negotiate safer sex, including condom use. This is especially important with regard to changing harmful gender norms that make men less likely to use condoms, and make women and girls less able to insist on their use.

was quoted from http://hivaids.live.iol.za.net/index.php?fSectionId=1607&fArticleId=3015158

anyways, i won't step on everything you said, i hope i replied enough.

I never said virgins deserve to be killed either, plus I never said you said that either, so maybe you should read with more attention. I was highlighting what you said about many believing the importance of the woman being a virgin, whilst ADDING that many believe in the importance of the sheet waving after the wedding night.

Your attitude to condoms and something which can save your life is pretty silly to be honest. Plus you've been living under a rock if you think they're all just like plastic bags, you have:

Ultra thin
Ribbed
Bobbly ones
Vibrating condoms
flavoured condoms
glow in the dark
etc etc etc

It's all about being creative you know.

Chocoholic wrote:Ultra thin
Ribbed
Bobbly ones
Vibrating condoms
flavoured condoms
glow in the dark
etc etc etc

someone's been hanging out in aisle 2 of the pharmacy.......

Chocoholic, lol, i'm sorry if you think that i live under a rock because i know how does it feel wearing a condom and i guess you are more experinced in condoms than me, since i already know one kind of condoms, thanks for the information anyways,

The whole women must be a virgin thing, just goes to show the ignorance and arrogance of men

i guess that was written by you and since i'm a man i considered it toward me, i was little bit carried away with what i say, well it's just me, and i don't expect you to know me or to care to know me, so i am sorry if i showed any 'rush' or stupid action as i really don't mean it!

i'm sorry again to anyone who is offended by my words or replies as i don't mean to offend any nice person in this very nice forum.

Rami, no worries matey. People are allowed to voice opinions here that's what it's all about. My comments weren't aimed at you specifically, but at the male populus of various regions and religions based on facts that I've gained recently.

That's all. Discussion is always good.

Interesting topic none the less.

1. It's not very easy to catch HIV AIDs with a condom unless you're in a high risk group. There's no single method of protection, it's best to use a combination. i.e. stay low risk and use a condom.

2. I'd rather marry a woman who wasn't a virgin. I would trust her a lot more that she's made an educated choice as opposed to her being forever curious about "what's it like with another man?". Curiosity can be a big destroyer of marriages.

3. You live. life goes on. And you still love that child because he is your own flesh and blood. Being mature enough to have sex is also about being mature enough to live with the responsibilities.

4. What a narrow minded point of view... there's always HP.

Rami, not every who has premarital s.e.x goes on s.e.x binges having s.e.x with anyone and everyone. If they were doing that, then yes, getting HIV or other STDs could be more likely to happen, especially if not using condoms or engaging in other risky behaviours.

There are people who date for years and have s.e.x in a monogomous relationship until they decide whether to marry or not. Some people stay together, some people don't. Every person has the ability to take birth control, use condoms, and take responsibility for unwanted pregnancy. In this kind of culture, men and women accept that their partner has likely had s.e.x with someone else and they focus on each other, not worrying about past s.e.xual history. In fact, couples often benefit from premarital s.e.x because they have a s.e.xually experienced partner and perhaps a great s.e.x life as a result. For some people, a man or woman's past s.e.xual history can be an issue, and there are also more conservative people out there who have waited until after marriage to have s.e.x. No one can judge or say what is better because it is what works best for the couple.

Unfortunately, women face a double standard in most cultures. It is only a woman who can give birth and men want to know that the child is theirs, so this is most likely where the double standard comes from. I understand this, but in this day in age with contraception and STD protection, women can enjoy the same s.e.xual freedom as men.

If we are talking about a culture where marriage partners are selected by parents, and men and women are married young - then it is easier for couples to stick to the no premarital s.e.x. rule. As someone else pointed out, this is not feasible for those from cultures where people choose their partners, and don't get married until their 30's on average.

i don't really know what to say but it seems like everyone has his/her own opinion regarding this subject.

but sexual freedom is not a very common issue where i came from, so dealing with it for me is something new.

I think I would feel the same way Rami. Having been born and raised in a free society, it is difficult for me to identify with very strict and prescribed laws for living. Both freedom and restriction have their positive and negative points.

man its way too complex subject to be discussed like this

Rami wrote:Greetings,

I’m trying to put this in a way so non-Arabs or non-Muslims in general can understand the Islam point of view, rather thinking Islam is a "joy killer" and that Islam wasn't made so Muslims can have fun, because this's wrong, it's just, when God sent Islam to us, everything was just considered, so here I go trying to explain it.

1. fun diseases, this doesn't need to be explained! if there is no rule that stops you from having fun as much as you want with different women then it's so easy to catch HIV because condoms do not protect you 100% from getting HIV, and even if they do protect you from HIV still they won't protect you from skin-to-skin STD's

"Condoms may not work as well against STDs spread through skin-to-skin touching, like herpes and genital warts, because condoms may not cover the infected areas." From Washoe County District Health Department Web site.

How can you say that God considered HIV when he/she sat on his cloud and wrote the quran/bible (whatever) .... quite simply HIV was not around when god supposedly wrote his/her holy doctrine!

so basically you believe people shouldn't have sex and the arguments for your belief is nothing more than scare mongering and a guilt trip. ie if you have premarital sex and enjoy having sex you'll get aids and die.

AJB, tell me you are kidding, yes please tell me you are kidding, because if you ain't kidding then i can't comment and all i can do then is be amazed of how stupid some people can be!.

valkyrie, dude! who's talking about guilt? i mentioned stuff that could be touched, i didn't even go to the religious reasons.

and please guys for the last time, what i was trying to do here, might have nothing to do with islam, it's something i observed and found it to be true and simple..

Rami wrote:AJB, tell me you are kidding, yes please tell me you are kidding, because if you ain't kidding then i can't comment and all i can do then is be amazed of how stupid some people can be!.

Rami ... Im half kidding ..... smart ass I may be sometimes but stupid I am not

The initial part of your post basically says God considered everything before coming up with the "rules" to which live to your life by including premarital se.x (or lack thereof)

Your first example is STD's and specifically you mention HIV ..... but it is ridiculous to believe God used a disease like HIV which was not present some 2000 years ago as a reason for restricting peoples ability to have premarital sex.

Perhaps I have misunderstood your introduction because it seems to me that you were trying to explain why God when he sent you Islam does not allow premarital se.x?? Correct me if Im wrong

well, in Islam, we do believe that god existed before everything and will exist after everything, and he knows everything, what we show, and what we hide, and whatever happened or will happen he knew it, so in other words god has no time frame limitations because Time = God, and this was said by god him self, so anyways basiclly god knew that there will be HIV, and knew and knows about everything, and this's a part of our beliefe.

so you believe the future is predetermined?

ajb, the philosophy here is complicated sometimes and might be deciving and it allows doubt, so what i say is, it's predetermined yes in our religion, BUT still, we have to choose our paths, so you'll be asking, how could that happen? well, you don't have to understand it! and i don't! for me... i believe, and this's enough, and i believe too that someday i'll be able to understand it, we as humans can't understand alot of stuff based on our logic, an example for that is universe, what was there before the time? where did the time come from? where did everything come from? what was there before everything? nothing? where did this 'nothing' come from, thinkin too much about this will hurt you seriously, as you'll over use your brain for no satisfying results, in our logic, everything has a start and end, so there's nothing called immortal! so if we'll follow logic only, believe me we'll get our brains messed up.

Slightly going off on a tangent here, but I found it completely mortifying that teh Vatican recently said, 'hmmmmm you know what maybe we should condone the use of condoms, as they would actually protect people from HIV and AIDS'.

I'm like, HELLLLOOOOOOO! Good grief, you know I hate to say it, but hardline people who object to the use of birth control and safe sex aids are probably the reason why there's such a big global problem with HIV and unwanted pregnancies.

In any society people will always be curious with the things they're denied.

So that's the reason I'm facinated by sharp pencils....

:

?

i don't really know what to say but it seems like everyone has his/her own opinion regarding this subject.

Lol, wait till somebody starts debate about sex between men or women. Even though forbidden by all religions, how can one help who he or she is attracted to. I have gay friends and they say the same thing, "we cannot help it."

I think we have bigger things to worry about than sex between a man and a woman without marriage vows.

faheemkamram wrote:i don't really know what to say but it seems like everyone has his/her own opinion regarding this subject.

Bit of a silly thing to say. Of course people have their own opinions and will discuss it, because there will always be people who are misinformed regarding such things, so it's upto those who are educated in such things, to educate others on these subjects.

People really shouldn't be such prude towards something which is the most natural thing in the world.

Chocoholic wrote:I never said virgins deserve to be killed either, plus I never said you said that either, so maybe you should read with more attention. I was highlighting what you said about many believing the importance of the woman being a virgin, whilst ADDING that many believe in the importance of the sheet waving after the wedding night.

Your attitude to condoms and something which can save your life is pretty silly to be honest. Plus you've been living under a rock if you think they're all just like plastic bags, you have:

Ultra thin
Ribbed
Bobbly ones
Vibrating condoms
flavoured condoms
glow in the dark
etc etc etc

It's all about being creative you know.

Oh you little minx you,

said in a french accent