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it's amazing how something that outragous and physically and mentally and logically unacceptable can be even linked to Islam.

before prophet Mohammed people used to bury their daughters alive because they are afriad of the shame a girl can bring to her family, so this female opression was going on for way long time ago so, don't try to attach any kind of violence against women to Islam.

no one is questioning the way the non muslims women live their lives because no one has the right to, so isn't it fair to do the same thing for muslim women too?

Did I miss where people were blaming Islam for breast ironing and female circumcision?

no i didn't mean that, but somehow the thread went from talking about those things to how muslim women cover themselves, which was a bit amazing.

Because we are talking about the practices that men put upon women in male-dominated societies and religions.

no one was blaming Islam, but someone linked "muslim culture" with this thread. Men are to equally cover up as are woman in Islam and it's the hypocrisy that is evident in the world today that people say one thing and do another. In any case the world was a better place 20+ years ago before men like Dubya Bush took control....

tdot, it is very childish when people bring up George Bush all the time. He is an ass, but Hitler, Mugabe, Hussein and many other leaders have made this world an unpleasant place as well. Let's stick to the topic and not try to pin anything related to this subject on George Bush, the USA or capitalism.

I guess you're American....and I don't see how it's childish, but anyhow yes there are other corrupt leaders and its just that Bush is the biggest one right now.

kanelli wrote:tdot, it is very childish when people bring up George Bush all the time. He is an a#s, but Hitler, Mugabe, Hussein and many other leaders have made this world an unpleasant place as well. Let's stick to the topic and not try to pin anything related to this subject on George Bush, the USA or capitalism.

Damn u beat me to it... I was going to post the same thing...

No she is Israeli .. I blame the Mossad for this one.

hehe, Isreali? she forgot to add Sharon to her list.

tdot wrote:I guess you're American....and I don't see how it's childish, but anyhow yes there are other corrupt leaders and its just that Bush is the biggest one right now.

Wrong, I am not American, but I am logical. This thread is about breast ironing and we have also discussed patriarchal and matriarchal societies and religions because it is related to cultural practices that affect women. George Bush has nothing to do with African women ironing breasts etc., therefore it is illogical to discuss George Bush in this thread.

MaaaD wrote:No she is Israeli .. I blame the Mossad for this one.

I'm Scottish/Welsh Canadian Feminist Vegetarian Atheist Humanist.

kanelli wrote:

MaaaD wrote:No she is Israeli .. I blame the Mossad for this one.

I'm Scottish/Welsh Canadian Feminist Vegetarian Atheist Humanist.

I still blame the Mossad.

MaaaD wrote:

kanelli wrote:

MaaaD wrote:No she is Israeli .. I blame the Mossad for this one.

I'm Scottish/Welsh Canadian Feminist Vegetarian Atheist Humanist.

I still blame the Mossad.

Can I blame it too? Pleaaaaaase?

MaaaD wrote:

kanelli wrote:

MaaaD wrote:No she is Israeli .. I blame the Mossad for this one.

I'm Scottish/Welsh Canadian Feminist Vegetarian Atheist Humanist.

I still blame the Mossad.

kanelli wrote:and we have also discussed patriarchal and matriarchal societies and religions

what societies and religions? you only discussed one religion i didn't see any other religion in your posts.

Actually, I wasn't the only person posting in this thread or the only person discussing Islam. If it makes you feel better, I'll mention how I cringed when my Frisian friend (A follower of the Dutch Christian Reformed Church) got married and the pastor said "Do you promise to obey your husband." Gak! Okay, that isn't really the same thing as ironing breasts, cutting and sewing up women's parts, or shrowding oneself in cloth so as not to sexually titilate a man. Christianity is also a patriarchal religion. Lots of religions are. If a woman gets her period she is considered unclean and can't even enter the house of worship etc. Patriarchal societies and religions come up with all kinds of ways to subjugate women.

most of the stupidities are the result of ignorant ppl and societies who think they are being civilised and enlightened.

raidah wrote:most of the stupidities are the result of ignorant ppl and societies who think they are being civilised and enlightened.

I wonder why some societies might think they are being civilised and enlightened by supressing their women?

kanelli wrote:

raidah wrote:most of the stupidities are the result of ignorant ppl and societies who think they are being civilised and enlightened.

I wonder why some societies might think they are being civilised and enlightened by supressing their women?

because they r being ignorant, that is why.
we place religion above everything else (well, some societies) and categorize s.e.x as sin, taboo, etc. the best cocktail of being closed minded.

do you believe that there is any society that isn't supressing women?

raidah wrote:

kanelli wrote:

raidah wrote:most of the stupidities are the result of ignorant ppl and societies who think they are being civilised and enlightened.

I wonder why some societies might think they are being civilised and enlightened by supressing their women?

because they r being ignorant, that is why.
we place religion above everything else (well, some societies) and categorize s.e.x as sin, taboo, etc. the best cocktail of being closed minded.

Very true.

tdot wrote:do you believe that there is any society that isn't supressing women?

touche

tdot wrote:do you believe that there is any society that isn't supressing women?

Yes, and they are all patriarchal. Does that make it okay?

I would like to be educated since there is nothing better than knowledge. Name me one patriarchal society that isn't supressing women?

kanelli wrote:Even if Islam claims to treat women very well, the fact remains that the Quran says that women must cover themselves to hide their attributes from men who might take advantage. On the one hand there are good intentions behind that, but on the other hand it makes it acceptable for men to disrespect women who are not covered.

Well Kan, I think this is a misunderstanding between the culture and Koran. The Woman should be respected whether she is covered or not .. and that also goes on the man. in Koran you should respect everyone regardless what kind of religions or cultures they have. and the islamic history is so full of stories about such situations.

Now maybe you have seen an incident or you have got a feeling that the uncovered woman is not respected, but believe if such thing happened.. then its only and only because of the culture or that particular reason because people are not use to see wpomen uncovered.. and its quit odd for them to understand such thing if they dont have the background or the understanding of other cultures.

even in christianity or Judaism the women should be covered .. if u have a look from behind on a Nun or a muslim lady, you will not be able to tell who is who.

The woman is a precious Jewell .. this Jewel should be protected and away from theves. Males are like wolves who are waiting for the pray, once they have what they want they will walk out. thats why when guys are normally claming they are "not ready" to commitment,.. they wana keep playing around they way they want Whether they admit it or not.

thats why ladies... if a man comes to you, check whether he is H0rney or really interested in you. if he is, then he should be ready for a commitment. other wize in the majority of the cases, girls are getting dummped on the edge of the road alone (maybe with a baby to support by her own even) for the other wolves.

I think its enough for the muslims precisly and to the world to know that the Prophet him self was dying while his head was on his wife's thigh and he is last words for a man like the prophet for the world were:

Always keep good thoughts about women.
Be gentle with the crystals - referning to the women-.

hope this was clear

its strange who things came back to this topic..

We were some where else!

Nick81 wrote:

xibit wrote:

Nick81 wrote:
I already knew about female circumcision (better called female genital mutilation) but this was definitely news for me...

omg !!

damn female circumsicion, is that even physically possible !!
what the hell do they circumsize ?? i really wanna know.

where and why do they do it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_circumcision

such act was done in some places and thats right...

but ...in Islam .. this is Taboo

The woman is a precious Jewell .. this Jewel should be protected and away from theves. Males are like wolves who are waiting for the pray, once they have what they want they will walk out

While I do agree a woman is precious she's not made of porcelain. This is exactly the mentality that lead to women being considered inferior to men. They can protect themselves and do NOT need men to live well in any society.

Nick81 wrote:

The woman is a precious Jewell .. this Jewel should be protected and away from theves. Males are like wolves who are waiting for the pray, once they have what they want they will walk out

While I do agree a woman is precious she's not made of porcelain. This is exactly the mentality that lead to women being considered inferior to men. They can protect themselves and do NOT need men to live well in any society.

which leads to men being insecure if they cant be the only ones to play the provider role in the family