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Liban · Apr 18, 2006

Look at my post here Kanelli:

http://www.dubaiforums.com/viewtopic.ph ... c&start=30

As for my disagreeing with your comments... What do you think?? :roll:

As for the religious war thing, what do you think?

I find your approach towards me quite childlike.

kanelli · Apr 18, 2006

Liban, you call me grasshopper and other condescending names as a passive aggressive way to assert your dominance over me. The fact remains that even if we disagree, I am an intelligent and assertive woman who can stand up to whatever comes my way.

shafique · Apr 18, 2006

Kanelli,

I think the argument that this is an issue of religion is not that another religion is rallying against Islam, but one of non-Islamic countries treating Islam as an enemy/foe/baddy/bogey-man. There aren't many non-Muslim theocracies out there, but there are many secular nations who (as some theories go) need to provide an enemy to their people to maintain their grip on power.

What Liban has expressed is factual - most Muslims see a systematic attack against Islam/Muslims/Arabs. This impression is based on what is happening in this region in particular and in the rest of the world in general since 9/11.

I would also caution against generalisations about Muslim countries too (that they aren't multi-cultural) - you may want to use 'Arab countries in Mid East instead. The most populace Muslim country in the world is Indonesia which is quite multicultural and includes regions such as Bali which are predominantly Hindu. Egypt, Lebanon, Malaysia are similarly multi-cultural and have complete freedom of religion - with indiginous Christians etc within them.

Ironically, Iraq under Saddam Hussein was very secular and now is in danger of becoming radicalised - Tariq Hussein, the former Foreign Minister, for example, is a Catholic and met with the Pope before the invasion...

What I'm saying is that generalisations can work both ways... now I'll step out of the way and allow you and Liban to continue to slug it out

Cheers,
Shafique

kanelli · Apr 18, 2006

I'm well aware that Indonesia is mulitcultural, but North America is still far more multicultural. That was my thought when posting at the time.

If there is a war and Muslims want to make it a religious war - so be it. Let the most powerful side win.

shafique · Apr 18, 2006

Kanelli - sorry, had to jump in here - 'North America is far more multicultural' than Indonesia? Hmmm - Certainly in the major cities of the US and Canada, but overall more multi-cultural than Indonesia?

The bulk of the US is so mono-cultural that they view people from the next state as strange! The Bible belt is a scary place to be when you realise people's entrenched views aren't going to be changed by a little thing called 'facts'.

I would certainly agree with you that Europe is multicultural, but I would qualify any such statement for the USA!

(Don't get me wrong, most Americans I have met abroad and there are very generous, kind-hearted people).

From your last statement above it seems I haven't got the point I was trying to make across. If +others+ are casting muslims as the enemy and lumping together the adherents of Islam as the bad guys, it is them that has made this 'war' into a religious war - I don't think I saw anyone saying that it is the 'Christians' etc who have it in for the Muslims, for true Christians are very peaceful.

(Now the subject of Israel is another matter altogether, but let's leave this for now).

Kanelli, do you agree that if Islam, or rather it's followers, is targeted as the enemy - then it becomes a religious war - because the religion is being attacked. (Please note I've used 'if' in the statements above)

Cheers,
Shfaique

kanelli · Apr 18, 2006

Yes, some areas of North America have a higher concentration of people of certain backgrounds than others. The government, however, makes laws and the country has a cultural fabric that is created from all areas of the country - so it is still my assertion that North America is a great example of multicultralism and tolerance of people from other cultures.

Terrorist groups have attacked in the name of Islam. This is why there is less tolerance since Sept. 11 - people are afraid of Islamic terrorists and they are buying into sensational stories about what goes on in Islamic countries, like the stoning of women, honour killings, polygamy etc. This is wrong and shouldn't be happening.

The Arab countries are easier to push around because they aren't as powerful as China and North Korea, for example. The Middle East has a lot of oil, which especially the US wants for its continued economic success. Big business has its hands in the political affairs. This is why I am saying that religion has nothing to do with the original underlying causes of the problems between the East and West at the moment.

Islam is being used as an excuse to fight the West, and the West in turn is demonising the religion. There have always been some misunderstandings about Islam because it has been tied to cultural practices that are part of a region or country and not really related to Islam at all. Education is what is needed to fight this, not supporting terrorism and wishing the West death and destruction.

Liban · Apr 18, 2006

kanelli wrote:Liban, you call me grasshopper and other condescending names as a passive aggressive way to assert your dominance over me. The fact remains that even if we disagree, I am an intelligent and assertive woman who can stand up to whatever comes my way.

This post shows your true nature. The mere fact you even posted shows you have something to prove.

Keep on doing your thing and one day you will make it...

Liban · Apr 18, 2006

kanelli wrote:I'm well aware that Indonesia is mulitcultural, but North America is still far more multicultural. That was my thought when posting at the time.

If there is a war and Muslims want to make it a religious war - so be it. Let the most powerful side win.

Muslims want to make it into a religious war?

You are generalizing. Also your true colors are coming out. You speak of openness and tolerence then you post this???? Contemptable.

shafique · Apr 18, 2006

kanelli wrote:Yes, some areas of North America have a higher concentration of people of certain backgrounds than others.

The majority of the US, by area, is mono-cultural.

kanelli wrote:Islam is being used as an excuse to fight the West, and the West in turn is demonising the religion. There have always been some misunderstandings about Islam because it has been tied to cultural practices that are part of a region or country and not really related to Islam at all. Education is what is needed to fight this, not supporting terrorism and wishing the West death and destruction.

Some may argue that America was targetted +because+ it was demonising Islam and working against muslims.

I agree that education is needed to fight ignorance - on both sides.

I disagree that Islam is being used as an 'excuse' to fight the West. No one, to my knowledge, among the Al Qaeda etc is waging war on Switzerland or the Nordic countries.

These Western countries are as Christian as the US is. So I disagree it is about religion - in terms of the attacks/hatred against the US and her allies.

It isn't.

It's about what the US and allies have done and are doing to Muslims and how this is perceived. Its a reaction against real and perceived injustices committed against Muslims that has provoked this reaction.

However you look at it, the issue of the sub-human treatment of Palestinians who face death down the barrels of US made/provided weapons will continue to be a cause of anger in the eyes of all humanitarians. When Palestinian women and children are killed by artillery attacks, it would be heartless to have no reaction to these atrocities.

Yesterday's suicide bombing by Islamic Jihad was un-condonable and evil, but they said it was a reaction to last weeks artillery attacks that killed women and children. I condemn both.

Humanitarians condemn Israel more, as they are the occupying power and they have killed thousands more Palestinians than Palestinians have killed Israelis. However the US supports the occupiers over the oppressed. Hence the reaction.

Therefore, I would contend that the assertion you made that Islam is misunderstood and demonised +because+ of terrorist attacks is a little bit facile. There is an argument that the West is being targeted because of its attacks against Muslims - and even if you don't agree with this analysis, I would hope you concede that is how these people see it.

(BTW, I know many muslims who live in Switzerland and also Norway - they don't have issues in these countries)

It's not one religion fighting another - its one set of people who feel oppressed and demonised lashing out.

sigh - so much for not getting involved ..

Cheers,
Shafique

Liban · Apr 18, 2006

kanelli wrote:Yes, some areas of North America have a higher concentration of people of certain backgrounds than others. The government, however, makes laws and the country has a cultural fabric that is created from all areas of the country - so it is still my assertion that North America is a great example of multicultralism and tolerance of people from other cultures.

A better example is Lebanon where all kinds of religious (16 to be exact) co-exist in government and are protected by the consitution.

North America may have laws, but on the sociolical level it is more homogeneous and closed off than my example... Outside the major urban areas... ie. Saskatchewan or Utah....

Liban · Apr 18, 2006

Kanelli, why is it that you fail to understand what everybody is telling you. You keep rehashing the same tired old arguments without actually reading what people post. Yet you claim to hold the superior moral and intellectual ground. Quite hypocritical.

shafique · Apr 18, 2006

Kanelli - no offense was meant in my posts... I abhor all violence and you come across as a very sincere compassionate person.

Whilst I may disagree with some of your opinions/analysis - I enjoy our exchanges, it certainly gets me thinking.

cheers.
Shafique

Liban · Apr 18, 2006

Sorry Shaf,

You had a double post for the last item you wrote to Kanelli. I was forced to delete the copy.

Thanks for your understanding,

Liban

kanelli · Apr 18, 2006

Shaf, thank you. Some of my arguments might be facile at the moment because I am still reading up on the issues, and still trying to understand. I try to put myself in other people's shoes, but I don't know what it is like to be a Muslim or Arab/Muslim or Palestinian or Israeli etc. I can't comprehend why some people think that just because the US and some other countries are complete hypocrits on the nuclear issue, that Iran is fully entitled to develop nuclear weapons. That isn't logical to me.

There seems to be more effort on some people's parts to demonise one group or another without much effort trying to make some positive change. This is primarily why I get upset at people like Lionheart who post on here.

The expats who live here are the perfect group of people to have a dialogue with because many move back to their home countries and they can educate people about what the Middle East is really like and dispel some of the propaganda on both sides. Unfortunately, some people would rather spend their time hating and disseminating propaganda.

Lionheart · Apr 18, 2006

kanelli wrote:Yes, some areas of North America have a higher concentration of people of certain backgrounds than others. The government, however, makes laws and the country has a cultural fabric that is created from all areas of the country - so it is still my assertion that North America is a great example of multicultralism and tolerance of people from other cultures.

Terrorist groups have attacked in the name of Islam. This is why there is less tolerance since Sept. 11 - people are afraid of Islamic terrorists and they are buying into sensational stories about what goes on in Islamic countries, like the stoning of women, honour killings, polygamy etc. This is wrong and shouldn't be happening.

The Arab countries are easier to push around because they aren't as powerful as China and North Korea, for example. The Middle East has a lot of oil, which especially the US wants for its continued economic success. Big business has its hands in the political affairs. This is why I am saying that religion has nothing to do with the original underlying causes of the problems between the East and West at the moment.

Islam is being used as an excuse to fight the West, and the West in turn is demonising the religion. There have always been some misunderstandings about Islam because it has been tied to cultural practices that are part of a region or country and not really related to Islam at all. Education is what is needed to fight this, not supporting terrorism and wishing the West death and destruction.

[qoute]Terrorist groups have attacked in the name of Islam. This is why there is less tolerance since Sept. 11 - people are afraid of Islamic terrorists and they are buying into sensational stories about what goes on in Islamic countries, like the stoning of women, honour killings, polygamy etc. This is wrong and shouldn't be happening. [/qoute]

Americans have always been intolerant to people of different color or religion. This intolerance did not start Sep 11. What Sep 11 did was bring all the terrorist attacks Americans have been committing against the muslim world right at their door step and you know what American government knew Sep 11 was going to happen and they let it happen, cause the attack gave them imperlist platform to invade and terrorize countries in Mid east. I kind of finded hard that terrorist could only be muslim who kills only ten, while American solidier who carpet bombs city killing 1000's of civilians at time gets medal of honor for his actions. In Sep 11 3000 people died, to avenge their deaths Americans went to iraq killed over 10000 civilians without killing, capturing or injuring Osama Bin Laden. They went then into Iraq a country that had nothing to with Sep 11 killing over 30000's civilians. The actions of Americans is as equally terrorist actions if not worse than Al-qeada's actions on Sep 11, matter fact Americans helped Al-qeada justify their actions when they went into Iraq.

[qoute]The Arab countries are easier to push around because they aren't as powerful as China and North Korea, for example. The Middle East has a lot of oil, which especially the US wants for its continued economic success. Big business has its hands in the political affairs. This is why I am saying that religion has nothing to do with the original underlying causes of the problems between the East and West at the moment. [/qoute]

I have been saying this for a long time. Arabs are weak, because they are divided, they have dictators who put their interest ahead of the interest their people and land. The only way to solve this is if Arabs went back to Khalifah rule, the way the map was before the British imperlist divided the Arabs and Muslims into nations that did not exist before.

[qoute]Islam is being used as an excuse to fight the West, and the West in turn is demonising the religion. There have always been some misunderstandings about Islam because it has been tied to cultural practices that are part of a region or country and not really related to Islam at all. Education is what is needed to fight this, not supporting terrorism and wishing the West death and destruction[/qoute]

You are right Islam being used by the likes of Osama Bin Laden to get his recruites to fight the west, but has also chosen to demonise Islam long before Osama Bin Laden came on the scene. Whenever terrorist attack is committed by a muslim individual.....the whole religion is targeted by the Western media by labelling the attack as Islamic terrorism..have you ever heard the media labelling Eta or Ira attacks as Christian terrorism or Tamil Tiger attacks as Hindu terrorism...or better yet American air strikes against civilians as American terrorism. When I hear the Western media use the Islamic terrorism...I see that as attack against the whole religion not the individual who committed the crime.

kanelli · Apr 18, 2006

Liban wrote:
kanelli wrote:I'm well aware that Indonesia is mulitcultural, but North America is still far more multicultural. That was my thought when posting at the time.

If there is a war and Muslims want to make it a religious war - so be it. Let the most powerful side win.

Muslims want to make it into a religious war?

You are generalizing. Also your true colors are coming out. You speak of openness and tolerence then you post this???? Contemptable.

Liban, if Muslims all over the world see military action in the Middle East as an attack on their religion, and a war between Muslims and non-Muslims breaks out - what can I do about it at that point? The strongest side will win, whoever that is. I might be generalising, but my comments were also hypothetical, since no one knows if a war will break out or not.

Let me show you a contemptible post Liban,

Liban wrote:"As far as I am concerned, the Jews are a curse on this planet...

They are like a disease. They infest and spread like vermin.
Sure some Jews died 60+ years ago... But so did millons more other people. So why do we keep blabbering about those bastards? Why? Because they have their dirty little fingers and crooked noses congtrolling all media, money, governments, etc... Satan's little helpers.

I curse the evil Jew. And as far as I am concerned. Hitler was a BIG LOSER because he couldn't finish what he started...

Now we can see your true colours I suppose.

Liban · Apr 18, 2006

You enjoy posting the same old things don't you? Well young grasshopper you keep doing just that. Whatever tickles your fancy.

Your broken arguments against me fail to sway even my biggest cynics and your attempts to ridicule me will fall on deaf ears (namely mine).

As for your comments on war breaking out and your doubt on whether this can happen or now... Wake up young one... Stop being an osterich and look around you, watch the news, ick up a paper. War has already broken out. Just becuase it is not nuclear, one should not belittle the situation.

Bush is to blame for the currunt conundrum. US foreign policy since WWII is to blame for the atmosphere that built till today. Defend the US all you want but remember this well, if one knows his history, one will know where the fault lies.

Liban · Apr 18, 2006

Kanelli, do you have nothing to say to Lionheart's last post? Or is it you wish to ignore it so that you can focus better on your vendetta against me...?

Understand this my young grasshopper, I will not be silenced by you. I have spoken rationally as of late and will continue to do so. You think you can look good by trying to "one up me" but fail miserably in that field.

Focus on this discussion. Do not repeat the same tired argument and do not pull up the same old posts from days gone by. Smart people do not do that sort of thing.

Consider my words wisely Kanelli. Open your eyes. You may yet learn something from this thread (and others like it).

kanelli · Apr 18, 2006

kanelli · Apr 18, 2006

kanelli wrote:Shaf, thank you. Some of my arguments might be facile at the moment because I am still reading up on the issues, and still trying to understand. I try to put myself in other people's shoes, but I don't know what it is like to be a Muslim or Arab/Muslim or Palestinian or Israeli etc. I can't comprehend why some people think that just because the US and some other countries are complete hypocrits on the nuclear issue, that Iran is fully entitled to develop nuclear weapons. That isn't logical to me.

There seems to be more effort on some people's parts to demonise one group or another without much effort trying to make some positive change. This is primarily why I get upset at people like Lionheart who post on here.

The expats who live here are the perfect group of people to have a dialogue with because many move back to their home countries and they can educate people about what the Middle East is really like and dispel some of the propaganda on both sides. Unfortunately, some people would rather spend their time hating and disseminating propaganda.

Liban · Apr 18, 2006

kanelli wrote::lol:

Thats your response?

Well we all have our limitations I guess.... :shock:

dave_w_uk · Jun 09, 2006

america dont want iraq to have nuclear capabilities due to the poor realtions between iran and itself! all nuclear weapons should be destroyed, although a nuclear attack will probably(with all my heart i hope) never happen again. down to the simple fact that it would break down into an all-out nuclear free for all! and will someone tell george bush the WMD's are in his own country!

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