Dubai Forums Dubai Discussions Dubai Politics Talk Philosophy and Religion Forums

The TEN COMMANDMENTS.

One of which says: "Thou Shall Not Steal"

Israel wass build on land STOLEN from the Arabs. Tel Aviv was the ancient Arab town of Jaffa, now they call it Tel Aviv-Yafo. Haifa is an ancient Arab city. Jerusalem too... Now all Israel. Stolen with British help under the mandate period and with American help and Western acquiessance later on.

I am saying all this as a result of this clip:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/120355/question/

I shake my head in sadness.

God Bless Palestine.

Liban wrote:The TEN COMMANDMENTS.

One of which says: "Thou Shall Not Steal"

Israel wass build on land STOLEN from the Arabs. Tel Aviv was the ancient Arab town of Jaffa, now they call it Tel Aviv-Yafo. Haifa is an ancient Arab city. Jerusalem too... Now all Israel. Stolen with British help under the mandate period and with American help and Western acquiessance later on.

I am saying all this as a result of this clip:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/120355/question/

I shake my head in sadness.



God Bless Palestine.

i did not understand what they were saying, but i will tell u this-i dont think there is one foot of land that belongs today to those who owned it initially...whether it happend 2000 years or 200 years ago, the result is the same. we all fight for what we once had, but eventually we will all get over it. the same happens everywhere and every time.

raidah wrote:
i did not understand what they were saying, but i will tell u this-i dont think there is one foot of land that belongs today to those who owned it initially...whether it happend 2000 years or 200 years ago,

I wouldn't be so sure of that.

in the part of europe i come from we had serious desputes over a region belonging to one or the other. during this history whenever was a war, big powers ended it by redrawing the map in a way that suited them. and small countries had no word in that, though it was their future in line. all smaller eastern european countries went through that sooner or later.
and very similar issues r going on in western europen countries too.
america itsself is a stolen land. the natives were almost exterminated "to make room" for what is today the amrican nation.
not to mention the peacefull tibethan ppl. china has not made easy for them.
and if we go back in history, u see the same thing went on again and again.
it is just smthing u cannot avoid...

You point out some good examples. But Indians have been in India for quite some time, same for Arabs in the Gulf, same for Mongolians in Monglia....

Liban wrote:You point out some good examples. But Indians have been in India for quite some time, same for Arabs in the Gulf, same for Mongolians in Monglia....

u said it right. for quite some time, not all time ever

raidah wrote:
i did not understand what they were saying,

But they were speaking in English

Anyways here is the jist:

Religious family, devout Jewish father, child studying the Torah.

Kid: Dad, is one of the 10 commandments, "Thou Shall Not Steal"

Father: Yes, that is one of our 10 commandments as per the Torah

Kid: So why did we steal Arab land?

Father has a look on his face that basically means "doh! got me there".

my computer must have been on silent... i saw the writing in arabic and it didn t cross my humble female mind to check the rest...


thanx anyway

To try and simplify the Arab/Israel conflict to "the Jews stole from the Arabs" is as unjust as the Israeli checkpoints in the middle of the Jenin.

The rediculous thing about the video clip is that is shows a Jew quoting the bible as the souce of his question. This is in fact what the Jews use as their source to CLAIM the land. Wars have been fought, both people have kicked out at some point in history, people have been killed, different people/countries have controlled this land for the past few thousand years.

Today there is a reality there. Either both the Israelis and the Palestinians are there to stay or the other unpleasant option is that there will be no one there. Both people must be willing to recognize the other, their right to exist peacefully, to self-govenment, within fair borders - and be willing to compromise to achieve this goal.

The sad thing is while the Arabs, despite years of abuse and humiliation, are willing to get back to the 1967 border (30% of historic Palestine), the Israelis are wanting to impose their order on that and creating new borders on a caton based Palestine representing 10% of historic Palestine...

Where is the justice in that?

who is talking here about justice? don t u think that is very naive...? i get angry over the most minor unjustice i see, but if there is smthing i learned in university-i studied politics-is that nor the law, not politics r about justice, they r all about interests and screw ups. and that what we, everyday ppl se is NEVER EVER what is really going on.

If you want to talk about numbers....70+% of historic Palestine is now called Jordan - a majority of whose residents are Palestinians.

The Palestinians are the unfortunate victims of Israelis, their Arab brethren and one of the most corrupt leaderships that ever existed - which allowed Suha Arafat to live in Paris with a $100,000/month allowance while a majority of "her" people were living in inhumane conditions.

Are the Palestinians or Israelis willing to go back to '67 borders? The whole world knows that is the solution - but for some reason neither of the 2 is willing to committ to that. The last one who said 'yes' to '67 was Rabin. I guess we won't be hearing from him anymore.

Mraph33, that argument is one used by the Zionists and Israelis. According to them all Palestinians ought to be deported to Jordan and make Jordan a defacto Palestinian state.

You claim that most Jordanians are Palestinian. That is true because the Zionist armies of 1948 sent the Palestinians in modern day Israel packing and those Palestinians went all over the place and mostly to Jordan. Thats the only reason for their raison d'etre over there.

Rabin never said YES to 1967. He said he was willing to see a two state solution close to 1967 but to commit to 67 would mean losing 1/2 of Jerusalem and no Israeli leader has had the courage to do that even though this will bring peace.

The Arabs are willing to commit to 1967, they even said so in 2002 Summit of Beirut so your facts are flaud there too my friend.

Just wanted to clarify this for you.

Mraph, just to add to what Liban pointed out. I dont see how the palestinians have not committed to the solution of going back to borders of 67. The PLO changed its charter to accomodate for that the Palestinian National Authority recognizes Israel and its pre 1967 borders. What other concesssions do you want from an occupied people ? Palestinains are under occupation and the only solution is for the Israelis to pack and leave, just like they did in Gaza and South of Lebanon. But ofcourse they dont want to because they cant give the compromise of the settlments and last but certainly not least, East Jerusalem. Technically East Jerusalem is part of Palestine if we are to go back to 19687 borders, do you think the Israelis are ready to committ to that ?

oh and i forgot to say, Liban thanks for the clip.

Maad, I stated quite clearly in my first post that '67 borders is the solution.

Liban, I was not trying to say that Jordan is the Palestinian state - but you raised the issue 'historic Palestine,' of which Jordan is a part. The 2002 Summit unfortunately came a few years too late. Where was the Arab support for all of the Israeli/Palestinian negotiations that were going on throughout the mid-90's? Even in Camp David in 2000 - where was the Saudi support? Maybe I am cynical, but I think this Saudi initiative lauched less than 4 month after 9/11 was as much to alter world opinions of 'all Muslims are extremists' than anything else.

And the plan itself was a rediculous as some of the 'brilliant' Israeli peace initiatives that preceeded it for 2 reasons: 1) it said that Israel must go back back to '67 as a PRECONDITION to negotiations. This is maybe the ultimate sacrifice that any Israeli government will make as the result of negotiations. 2) Palestinian right of return - even the most left-wing of Israeli government will not allow this to happen, because that will be the of their country.

Which leads me back to my original post again - and that is you can't just point a finger at one side and say "everything is their fault.'

No. The plan is give us 1967 and we will give you peace. Not sure what your information source is.

As for the right for return. We all want to return home. Refugees from 1948 have legal land deeds dating back pre-1948 which Israel doesn't recognize (no surprise).

The right of return mean compensation for such deeds more than anything else. The Jews demand the same of the Swiss, Germans, Austrians, Czechs, etc... today all the time. Its the same. Only propaganda gives it another definition.

As for the blame. Please. Since Islam came to Palestine in the 7th and 8th centuries, Jews and Muslims have been living in peace. Jews would escape Chrisitian Europe to live in Arab Muslim lands from Morocco to Iraq in search of a better life which they got. Then Europe helped create the artificial state of Israel on madate Palestine. The problems started with the mandate policies, the brainchild of Lord Balfour, and got aggravated following the Naqba (creation of Israel). Israel is to blame for our current conundrum.

Golda Meir said "Palestinians, there are no Palestinians". Yes thats a GREAT way to obtain peace.

And you refer to the 90s, where were the Arabs? If the Arab states didn't want peace then the PLO under Arafat would never have been able to return to Tunis with a peace agreement in hand. The PLO's raison d'etre was because of Arab support. Every hear of backroom channels dude?

MaaaD wrote:oh and i forgot to say, Liban thanks for the clip.

No problem.

I enjoy pointing out hypocrisy

Actaully one of the main problems of the refugees is that they don't have any legal land deeds. When people live within a tribe, eveyone knows - my land goes up to the here...yours starts from there and there is no problem. A lot of the land confiscation by Israel is done based on this lack of legal documentation (aside from the deeds that they refuse to recoqnize). And the right of return is in fact a right of return - it is not compensation. The Palestinians want to return to the land owned by their grandparents. Unlike the Jews who were kicked out of the Arab countries, who don't want to return.

Quoting Golda Meir is hardly what I would call a representation of history. How about this one: "Palestine must be built up without violating the legitimate interests of the Arabs" Chaim Weitzman.

And tell me this....where's the money????? Hundreds of millions of dollars have been donated through the PLO & later P.A. to help the Palestinain people. Where's the money???? Ask Suha and all the other corrupt 'leaders.' Maybe if there was a leader who really cared their situation would be better.

They do have land deeds, dunno where you get your history from.

Chaim... heh! What he wanted was Arab rights outside what Israel considered its "promised land".

The money is mainly in the hands of the Israelis and other minions.

Also mraph33, we know you are posting from Israel. No need to tell us what your skewed version of the truth is.

I have scanned your IP adress. Congratulations on your prowess. You locate a Dubai site and think you know all.. hehe... Thats nice!

Unlike most Jews and Zionists, most Arabs want nothing of the "Lets push Israel into the sea". Howver your country is based on Eretz Israel (greater Israel) from the Nile to the Euphrates. Your flag means that.

Do not speak of who is in the wrong here, any county who's national flag represents conquering the land of its neighbors is nothing more than a war mongerer and a rogue state.

Sorry Liban....I'm here in Dubai and if you want to come to Deira, you can find me playing basketball there every evening. It's a shame that disagreeing with you means that I get branded as something - since I am just trying to exchange ideas with you.

But you are right that I was in Israel - working as an UNRWA volunteer in the Jenin, Deheisheh and Kalandia refugee camps. I can tell you've NEVER been there - because if you were, you would know that the Palestinians have deep distrust of their Arab bretheren and hate for the P.A. (maybe you heard that Hamas won the last election there).

just to rebut a few of your last thoughts:
Land deeds - I didn't meet many with them. A lot of them have house keys of what were their house, but that isn't going to get them too far in a court of law.

Money - in the hands of Israel? Come on!!!! So who is paying for the extravagent lifestyle of all the PA members? You don't think that Saudi Arabia would have given money to Israel to distribute to the refugees.

The israel flag is nothing more than a symbol of their prayer shawl - nothing political at all about it. But I'll tell you what is - one of their coins has a map of "greater israel" on it - so maybe you can use that fact in one of your later posts.

you would know that the Palestinians have deep distrust of their Arab bretheren and hate for the P.A. (maybe you heard that Hamas won the last election there).

I can second that. There is a saying that Palestinians while shot by the Israelis from the front are stabbed by the Arabs from the back.

mraph makes some valid points, but i really lost the point of this discussion ? Israeli does not have the right to be there today, but its there and "throwing them into the sea" is not an option anymore. Palestinians have realized that and are working with it. But mraph can you truly say that the Palestinians are an equal in any kind of negotiations ? You saw what happened once a goverment that is not inline with what the Americans and Israelis want.

mraph: thats awesome that you worked in Dheihesha and Jenin. respect.

Liban: You shouldnt use your moderator powers to gain an edge in a discussion even if his IP was really in Israel/Palestine.

I really like this quote, i keep it for you guys to read into it:

"Those who profess to favour freedom and yet
depreciate agitation are men who want crops without ploughing up the ground; they want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters ... Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will." - Fredrik Douglass

Nope. Palestinians definately are NOT equal, not will they ever be as long as the US is the one who is initiating the peace agreement - although I think the Rabin/Clinton period was about as good an opportunity as has ever existed. I think Israel, the US and the Palestinians have all become more belligerent and less interested in finding a peaceful & just solution since then. That is certainly unfortunate, because the Palestinian people are definately the ones paying the largest price right now.

I know this isn't going to make me popular here.....but I DON'T think that Israel is the cause of all problems in the Middle East. I know that I am in an Arab country, but I don't think disseminating basically hateful messages is what is going to help bring peace to the region.

I never said the PA under Fatah was not corrupt. Yes the Palestinians are disenchanted with Fatah and so comes Hamas. More power to them

The money is in the hands of Israel that is blocking everything to allow the PA to function.

Israel is the cause of the problems in the mid-East. It existance is based on European hegemoney during the mandate period. Israel is now a fait accompli, I agree. They should return to 1967 including East Jerusalem or I promiss you that the Jews will not get the peace they think they deserve from the Arabs.

War is not the answer. When Israel learns that then we can speak of peace.

although I think the Rabin/Clinton period was about as good an opportunity as has ever existed

As you said a fair solution would be 1967 borders, the solution then was nothing near that. Oslo was just a declaration of principles on which to negotiate.. and since then the Palestinians never came anywhere near what they want for peace.

I disagree with you that Israel is not the reason for most of problems in the MIddle East. Here just a few examples :

1) The American policy of siding with Israel is one of the reaons that fuel Islamic extermism in the middle east

2) Arab regimes around the Middle East have gotten away with totalariasm and people like saddam stayed in power because of the mentality of "we are in war with israel we should be united behind out presidents" instead of try to do any reform.

3) You dont think the war in Iraq is in anyway related to the fact that having a hostile regime that would launch scud missles to Tel Aviv ?

4) Iran ? What is the reasons the US is making such noise over the Iranian Nuclear programme versus N. Korea for example ?

those were justs a few points i could go on forever ...

1) Agree with you 100%. And after 9/11 rather than the Americans realizing that their policy is causing extremism, they have 'turned up the heat' - something that has caused even more.

2) This is a VERY interesting arguement and probably we can start a new topic about this. Is the entire Arab world really at war with Israel? Are we in Dubai at WAR?? We have no relations with Israel. That's not really being at war. Just like the US is with Libya (which is apparently about to change). If Israel is in fact the cause of this phenomenon, then why does it happen also in Africa? Israel can't be the cause there.

3 & 4) My answer OIL. But I would put a footnote to that - I think the US is afraid of what ISRAEL will do. And another attack like the bombing of the Iraqi in the early 80s could be much more catostrophic for the region. If there was no oil in the region, the US wouldn't care about Iran, Iraq or Israel.

Liban wrote:
God Bless Palestine.

Amen to that brother.