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But Liban, you didn't really answer what the values are specifically, and perhaps why they are deemed "evil". I understand what you are saying in general, but I wanted to get more specific in this discussion. It isn't only up to you to answer, anyone can have a crack at it.

OK, I will let others speak.

I hope you will get some coherent answers.

Okay, for example. Do some of you mean capitalism, consumerism, democracy?

kanelli wrote:Okay, for example. Do some of you mean capitalism, consumerism, democracy?

I so much want to speak on this... But I promosed to let the stage for others...

Me and my promisses...

Liban

This is a process of understanding - both ways

We would like to hear your views

Lionheart wrote:Please point out to me were I have been anti- Christian and I will apologize.

Lionheart wrote:Hitler was Christian

Lionheart wrote:The messieh of the Jews like the messieh of Evengical Christians is none other than Dajjal....

Lionheart wrote: we should also not allow people to insult prophet Issa(pbuh)...

I would expect Christians to view those statements as anti-Christian - Christians don't regard Jesus as a prophet.

Hitler was hardly a Christian except perhaps in his own mind (and maybe extremist groups like the KKK - but I don't think they call themselves Christian do they?).

Choco Why is it that when someone in Mid East or South America apposses Western Domination he/she is demonized as Anti-Western..x. Hugo Chavex, Ahmedjad.

Yes, opposing western domination sounds like a clear explanation of being anti-Western to me .

But multinational corporations who take advantage of the poor people in South America, Oil corporations who have warmonging government( AKA Bush, Blair) to wage war to steal the little natural resources people in Mid east have, are seen saviors, liberators, etc.

Yes, well, oil corporations are generally western run. Bush, Blair are westerners. They're hardly likely to demonise themselves. Just as Ahmadinejad, Chavez are hardly likely to try and find fault with their own actions and points of view. Those two statements you made make sense to me, I don't see a contradiction. Your second statement quoted sounds like you are anti-Western but you already said you are (I think) so all its doing is reinforcing your POV.

kanelli wrote:And what are "Western" values?

• Democracy (Western) - every citizen has the right to vote free of intimidation. The opposition parties have the right to canvas for votes without fear of intimidation.
• Democracy (Iranian) - every citizen has the right to vote but the rulers will arbitrarily remove opposition candidates they don't like.
• Democracy (Syrian) - every citizen has the right to vote but please supply the names and addresses of those (and their families) who vote for the opposition.
• Democracy (African) - every citizen has the right to vote but you might get knocked around a bit if you vote for the opposition (and they probably will too). Ah, what the hell, we'll just beat you up anyway - call it canvassing for votes.
• Democracy (Democratic People's Republic of Korea) - we'll just call ourselves Democratic without having elections and save everyone a lot of bother. And by the way, thanks for the 50,000 tons of rice last year Mr Bush. Can you give us some more this year if we refrain from calling you names for a week or two?

Hmmm, perhaps that last sentence should go under Western Capitalism...

Democracy (USA): The people have the right to vote. But the loser of the election can use his family, clout, and money to contest and win despite having less votes. Also its a choice between tweedle-dumb and tweedle-do....

Liban wrote:Democracy (USA): The people have the right to vote. But the loser of the election can use his family, clout, and money to contest and win despite having less votes. Also its a choice between tweedle-dumb and tweedle-do....

Ah yes, I forgot that bit ...

Great posts guys, I got a kick out of them.

Seriously though, I think that many values are human values and citizens of countries might favour some of these values more than others - fluctuating year by year. For example, Russia had communism and now seems to want to rush right into capitalism Many countries believe in democracy, yet it is practised in many different ways The US is a great example of that. It pretends to have a "pure" democracy, but there are many flaws in the system that prevent ideal results (see this article). They have that strange Electoral College system that seems to have more significant disadvantages than advantages (more info here) Also, democracy seems to work best when the voting population are educated, able to critically analyse what is propaganda and what isn't, care enough about the country as a whole (not just their local politics), and everyone turns out to vote. Also, there should be no technical problems, manipulation or unfair practises when the voting is being conducted. (That's a given.)

Basically, I don't think that some values can necessarily be labelled as "Western".

Okay, I don't know if I am making any sense. Time to go eat something and get off this computer

Chocoholic wrote:MS, Thank you so much for taking the time to answer my questions, I very much appreciate it as it helps me understand where you're coming from and now I have a much better idea at understanding your point of view, which of course is valid and justified.

No problem Chocs. It's too bad that our first discussion was on such controversial issues. I'm sure there are lots of other issues in life we agree upon.

Cheers ...

sharewadi wrote:

Lionheart wrote:Please point out to me were I have been anti- Christian and I will apologize.

Lionheart wrote:Hitler was Christian

Lionheart wrote:The messieh of the Jews like the messieh of Evengical Christians is none other than Dajjal....

Lionheart wrote: we should also not allow people to insult prophet Issa(pbuh)...

I would expect Christians to view those statements as anti-Christian - Christians don't regard Jesus as a prophet.

Hitler was hardly a Christian except perhaps in his own mind (and maybe extremist groups like the KKK - but I don't think they call themselves Christian do they?).

Choco Why is it that when someone in Mid East or South America apposses Western Domination he/she is demonized as Anti-Western..x. Hugo Chavex, Ahmedjad.

Yes, opposing western domination sounds like a clear explanation of being anti-Western to me .

But multinational corporations who take advantage of the poor people in South America, Oil corporations who have warmonging government( AKA Bush, Blair) to wage war to steal the little natural resources people in Mid east have, are seen saviors, liberators, etc.

Yes, well, oil corporations are generally western run. Bush, Blair are westerners. They're hardly likely to demonise themselves. Just as Ahmadinejad, Chavez are hardly likely to try and find fault with their own actions and points of view. Those two statements you made make sense to me, I don't see a contradiction. Your second statement quoted sounds like you are anti-Western but you already said you are (I think) so all its doing is reinforcing your POV.

There is nothing anti Christian about saying Hitler was a Christian..since he practised the religion of the Christians. If you could provide me with statements or facts that proof hitler did not practise Christianity than..I will apologize to Christians.

I don't think I'm anti-Christian when I disrespect the Evengical Christians or anti Jew when I disrespect the Zoinist Jews...because these groups plotted and disrespected my deen and Allah and his messengers. I will apologize to the average Jew who lumped with the Zoinist.

Issa(pbuh) might be god to the Christians, but to us muslims he is a mere messenger of God, man just like any other...except that he was a messenger of God and therefor was best of man. If this is Anti Christians to Christian believers than saying the prophet is god is Anti Muslim to muslims.



If you believe oppossing Western domination is anti Western...than I suppose you would be okey if China was allowed to tell what government, what weapons, what economic system, what culture the west should have...also I suppose you would be okey with Dubia company owning and running your ports...but unfortunately people in the west are not..but they are okey with their Military having bases in Mide East, their government imposing their will on weaker people around the world. If I'm anti Western, than I suppose you are anti the rest of the World..

sharewadi, there is a huge difference between being against Western domination and being anti-Western.

Yes, we are against Western domination. We should live together in peace and harmony. However, we have the right to protect our own interests and push our own agenda ....without hurting others.

Lots of stuff being said. Please anyone who was there or knows anyone who was there when "GOD" promised anything to anyone (muslim, jew, christian, et. al.) please raise your hand. Otherwise...

Lionheart wrote:There is nothing anti Christian about saying Hitler was a Christian..since he practised the religion of the Christians. If you could provide me with statements or facts that proof hitler did not practise Christianity than..I will apologize to Christians.

Well, he was responsible for a few deaths in a manner most Christians would have a problem with. If you don't, that's your POV but I don't think many Christians would agree with it.

I don't think I'm anti-Christian when I disrespect the Evengical Christians or anti Jew when I disrespect the Zoinist Jews...because these groups plotted and disrespected my deen and Allah and his messengers. I will apologize to the average Jew who lumped with the Zoinist.

I have no idea what your point is.

Issa(pbuh) might be god to the Christians, but to us muslims he is a mere messenger of God, man just like any other...except that he was a messenger of God and therefor was best of man. If this is Anti Christians to Christian believers than saying the prophet is god is Anti Muslim to muslims.

Yes, I assume Muslims and Christians would agree with that.

If you believe oppossing Western domination is anti Western...than I suppose you would be okey if China was allowed to tell what government, what weapons, what economic system, what culture the west should have...also I suppose you would be okey with Dubia company owning and running your ports...but unfortunately people in the west are not..but they are okey with their Military having bases in Mide East, their government imposing their will on weaker people around the world. If I'm anti Western, than I suppose you are anti the rest of the World..

My ports ? When/where did I claim ownership? Anyway, not everyone had a problem with that. Even Bush welcomed DP World ownership of US ports.

MS: quite right.

Lionheart wrote:There is nothing anti Christian about saying Hitler was a Christian..since he practised the religion of the Christians. If you could provide me with statements or facts that proof hitler did not practise Christianity than..I will apologize to Christians.

Well, he was responsible for a few deaths in a manner most Christians would have a problem with. If you don't, that's your POV but I don't think many Christians would agree with it.

I don't think I'm anti-Christian when I disrespect the Evengical Christians or anti Jew when I disrespect the Zoinist Jews...because these groups plotted and disrespected my deen and Allah and his messengers. I will apologize to the average Jew who lumped with the Zoinist.

I have no idea what your point is.

Issa(pbuh) might be god to the Christians, but to us muslims he is a mere messenger of God, man just like any other...except that he was a messenger of God and therefor was best of man. If this is Anti Christians to Christian believers than saying the prophet is god is Anti Muslim to muslims.

Yes, I assume Muslims and Christians would agree with that.

If you believe oppossing Western domination is anti Western...than I suppose you would be okey if China was allowed to tell what government, what weapons, what economic system, what culture the west should have...also I suppose you would be okey with Dubia company owning and running your ports...but unfortunately people in the west are not..but they are okey with their Military having bases in Mide East, their government imposing their will on weaker people around the world. If I'm anti Western, than I suppose you are anti the rest of the World..

My ports ? When/where did I claim ownership? Anyway, not everyone had a problem with that. Even Bush welcomed DP World ownership of US ports.

MS: quite right.