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MS wrote:Liban, I agree with what you say. However, I would suggest to save your time and energy. "They" will never, ever, ever, acknowledge that we rights of any sort.

And you know what, "you" will keep stereotyping "us". What a shame.

Jews and Muslims have the right to live side by side in Israeli and Palestinian states. Each deserves a place to call home and a place to rule themselves. If the Jews are to be pushed out, where should they go? Where on Earth will they be able to live next to their holy and historical places if not Palestine?

Thanks to Hitler, the Jews realise that they need a homeland where they can survive, and many people support this because of the atrocities in WW2. I admit that it is odd how some people support a homeland for Jews so that there is no further ethnic cleansing, yet ethnic cleansing in former Yugoslavia and in many parts of Africa went virtually ignored or acted upon too late. In any case, no ethnic cleansing should be tolerated - Period. Having said this, the conduct of the Israelis has been ing and I don't agree with many of their policies for dealing with Palestinians. Despite this, terrorism on the part of some radical Palestinians just keeps making the situation worse. It is all a vicious circle.

I wish that the Palestinians and other Muslim populations that side with the Palestinians could band together as strongly and lobby as strongly as the Jewish groups do. Sorry to say, but it seems that the Jewish groups do a much better job of persuading governments and organisations to support their cause.

I am fed up with both sides not being able to solve their problems and take more aggressive steps to live in peace together. The Israel/Palestine conflict is one of the root causes for anger and separation between Muslim and non-Muslim countries because it seems that countries are lining up on different sides. This is why peace needs to come sooner than later - world security could depend on it.

kanelli wrote:I am fed up with both sides not being able to solve their problems and take more aggressive steps to live in peace together. The Israel/Palestine conflict is one of the root causes for anger and separation between Muslim and non-Muslim countries because it seems that countries are lining up on different sides. This is why peace needs to come sooner than later - world security could depend on it.

I agree. We desperately need fair peace that is able to keep everyone happy.

Nice post K

arniegang wrote:Nice post K

As far as I can see this post differs fundamentally from what you have been saying !!???!!!

Wow, leave the forums for a few hours and read through all this

Arnie:

My post basically said how Zionism in its current form goes against true Judaism because only the Messiah can rebuild the temple of Soloman according to the Old Testament and only when this temple is rebuilt can the Land of Israel come to be.

However, with God having destroyed the temple because of the sins of the Jews (according to the New Testament), this is unlickly to happen (as per the Quran) and as such Israel in its current form is not a religious entity but a political one and thats the core of Zionism --> politics.

The politics that created Israel were flaud, but then, show me politics that are not flaud

To All,

Israel is now a fact on the ground.

We cannot take back 60 years of history no matter how badly some of us ay want to. Israeli Zionists need to give up there politically and NOT religiously based concept of Eretz Israel and as such the Arabs are more than willing to return to 1967 geographic boundries and live in peace. This was the core of the 2002 Beirut Declaration and the declarations in every Arab Summit since then.

There are parties, on both sides, that do not want to listen and that have no internest in peace. But what has war given us??? STALEMATE after STALEMATE... For all its might, Israel and its local puppet (the USA) have not been able to defeat the Arabs, and the Arabs have not defeated their common ennemy. So no checkmate.

There are two roads, mutually assured destruction (endless war) or peace. Many Arabs and Israelis would select the latter I am sure.

There are many ways to acheive a just peace but the parties involved need to convince the USA to be fair and the US has to want to be fair and to push and priod both sides. Bloth sides also need to accept the EU and Russia as these two entities have just as much interest in MENA peace as the US does. The USA needs to allow those two parties to participate and Israel needs to stop balking at the idea.

But I have blabbered enough now I think

Also, DK may be a Sci-Fi geek, but he is NOT a fundamentalist in any other sense....

Liban, I totally agree with what you say. As I (and you) have said, the Arab leaders are willing to go for a 2-state solution and recognize Israel. This was rejected.

Also you can't count much on the justice of governments. What shocked me is the position of ordinary Westerners. Many of them (at least on this forum) are against the 2-state solution. In other words, they are with the 2-state solution, but they want Palestine to be placed somewhere else!!!????!!!!

Dubai Knight wrote:

MS wrote:I've edited my other posts too, because it's not worth posting.

MS, you have to accept that there are 2 sides to every argument or debate, these should be viewed objectively and every person is entitled to their opinion and point of view, however there is a decorum required and the debate should be carried out in a civilised and intelligent manner. Abuse and rudeness are not neccessary.

If you disagree with a point, then put forward a sensible and measured argument to that effect rather than ranting aimlessly. This is the reason we have Mods on the forum. If you disagree, then take the issue to Fight Club.

In response to Lionhearts post, the lands in question were actually disputed long before the Islamic faith was born. (I refer to Chocs quotation from the bible) and were originally a part of the lands of King David, of the line of Soloman and Abraham, an interesting reason as to why Jesus was originally persecuted by the Romans, who occupied the region at the time of his birth, as he was supposed to be of 'the line of David' and therefore consituted a political threat to their occupancy and the stability of the area.

The political disputes continue to this day although the number of independent claimants has merely increased.

Knight

[qoute]In response to Lionhearts post, the lands in question were actually disputed long before the Islamic faith was born. (I refer to Chocs quotation from the bible) and were originally a part of the lands of King David, of the line of Soloman and Abraham, an interesting reason as to why Jesus was originally persecuted by the Romans, who occupied the region at the time of his birth, as he was supposed to be of 'the line of David' and therefore consituted a political threat to their occupancy and the stability of the area.[/qoute]


Before Muslims from Arabia came to the land the people who controlled the land were Romans and their subjects were Jews and Christians...no muslims lived in Palastine, because Islam and religion was only less than 100 years old...but people who we refer to Palastinian today if you check genitically are much much much closer to the hebrews and Christians who lived in Palastine when Omar( may allah be pleased with him) conquered the Palastine 650 A.D. Palastinian population is closer to genetically to original Hebrews and canaanites who lived in Palastine than the Jews who migrated from Europe or other parts of the world. Islam is a faith not a race, so Palastinians before they were muslims were either Jews or Christians or Roman Pagans or Canaanite Pagans, just like Saudis before Islam came to them they were either Pagans or Jews...but after Islam came they either converted quickly or converted with process of time. The Jews today claiming God promised us Palastine today have no relations. These Jews of genetic relations to anyone in Middle east including Jews in Middle east...they are nothing more than Europeans who converted to Judism. If God promised people land than why hasn't Jews in Middle East taken claim to Palastine before ww1. Why were Jews in Palastine satisfied and felt protected living under Muslim Sultanate of Jerusalam for over 1000 years. If God truelly promised them Palastine, than they would have risen up against the Romans and Muslims and the 80 years the Christian Crusaders controlled Palastine. Why did it take Jews from Europe riding on the sympathy and backing of European imperlist to establish Isreal. If it only takes God promised me this land than surely I or anyone this World could claim anyones house or land by justifying it "God promised us this land or house". And how could god promise people a land that is not their's...a land already inhabited by people...surely god does not condone theift.

Chocoholic wrote:Ok Liban, but what I have a hard time with, is why would people question something which was given/promised to the Jews/Israelites by god. You belive in Allah, you do not question him, so why do you question this, which has been stated in the Bible.

The Israaelites were told, if you read the link I posted, that they would have to take the land by force, and if you look what was actually promised it's no where near what they have now.

Isrealites have spite on every prophet God has sent them..so why would God promise a land to people who have not been greatful to God almighties deeds...

Chocoholic wrote:Question: "What is the land that God promised to Israel?"

Answer: In regards to the land that God has promised Israel, Genesis 15:18 declares, "To your descendants (Abraham's) I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates." God later confirms this promise to Abraham's son Isaac, and Isaac's son Jacob (whose name was later changed to Israel). When the Israelites were about to invade the promised land, God reiterated the land promise, as recorded in Joshua 1:4, "Your territory will extend from the desert to Lebanon, and from the great river, the Euphrates — all the Hittite country — to the Great Sea on the west."

With Genesis 15:18 and Joshua 1:4 in mind, the land God gave to Israel included everything from the Nile river in Egypt to Lebanon (North to South) and everything from the Mediterranean Sea to the Euphrates River (West to East). So, what land has God stated belongs to Israel? All of the land modern Israel currently possesses, plus all of the land of the Palestinians (the West Bank and Gaza), plus some of Egypt and Syria, plus all of Jordan, plus some of Saudi Arabia and Iraq. Israel currently possesses only a fraction of the land God has promised.

http://www.infidels.org/library/magazin ... sse91.html

In my holy book The Qoran which hasn't been corrupted by man for 1400 years clearly stats God never promised Jews any land and God certainly promises no one a land.

MS wrote:Liban, I totally agree with what you say. As I (and you) have said, the Arab leaders are willing to go for a 2-state solution and recognize Israel. This was rejected.

No it wasn't, at least not right away, it was overshadowed by the contribution from Hamas in Netanya which they later claimed was designed to scupper the peace talks in Beirut. Which it did.

Jordanian foreign minister said

The Arab initiative put forth at the Beirut Summit in March offers comprehensive peace in the region based on the internationally recognized formulation of "land for peace" -- a return to June 4, 1967, borders in exchange for normal relations and a collective peace treaty.

Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Peres agreed and said

the details of every peace plan must be discussed directly between Israel and the Palestinians, and to make this possible, the Palestinian Authority must put an end to terror, the horrifying expression of which we witnessed just last night in Netanya

Whenever the parties get close to peace, there always seems to be some extremist element that screws it up. The example above. Yitzak Rabin shot by extremist Jew. And so on.

Also you can't count much on the justice of governments. What shocked me is the position of ordinary Westerners. Many of them (at least on this forum) are against the 2-state solution. In other words, they are with the 2-state solution, but they want Palestine to be placed somewhere else!!!????!!!!

I think I read one question in this topic regarding other Arab countries providing land for Palestinians. I don't see that as translating into many westerners being against the two-state solution. I don't even know any westerners against the two-state solution.

What government justice are you looking for? The two-state solution was agreed in principle years ago. It's the implementation that is proving intractable. Mostly because of the contributions from extremists.

kanelli wrote:

MS wrote:Liban, I agree with what you say. However, I would suggest to save your time and energy. "They" will never, ever, ever, acknowledge that we rights of any sort.

And you know what, "you" will keep stereotyping "us". What a shame.

Jews and Muslims have the right to live side by side in Israeli and Palestinian states. Each deserves a place to call home and a place to rule themselves. If the Jews are to be pushed out, where should they go? Where on Earth will they be able to live next to their holy and historical places if not Palestine?

Thanks to Hitler, the Jews realise that they need a homeland where they can survive, and many people support this because of the atrocities in WW2. I admit that it is odd how some people support a homeland for Jews so that there is no further ethnic cleansing, yet ethnic cleansing in former Yugoslavia and in many parts of Africa went virtually ignored or acted upon too late. In any case, no ethnic cleansing should be tolerated - Period. Having said this, the conduct of the Israelis has been ing and I don't agree with many of their policies for dealing with Palestinians. Despite this, terrorism on the part of some radical Palestinians just keeps making the situation worse. It is all a vicious circle.

I wish that the Palestinians and other Muslim populations that side with the Palestinians could band together as strongly and lobby as strongly as the Jewish groups do. Sorry to say, but it seems that the Jewish groups do a much better job of persuading governments and organisations to support their cause.

I am fed up with both sides not being able to solve their problems and take more aggressive steps to live in peace together. The Israel/Palestine conflict is one of the root causes for anger and separation between Muslim and non-Muslim countries because it seems that countries are lining up on different sides. This is why peace needs to come sooner than later - world security could depend on it.

Muslims and Jews have lived side by side for over 1000 years. Jews have enjoyed more protection in muslim land than anywhere in the World before the creation of Isreal. I have absolutely no problem with Muslims and Jews living side by side...but what I have problem with is an European Jew coming to Palastine to claim the land as his/hers.


Jews and Muslims have the right to live side by side in Israeli and Palestinian states. Each deserves a place to call home and a place to rule themselves. If the Jews are to be pushed out, where should they go? Where on Earth will they be able to live next to their holy and historical places if not Palestine?

[qoute]Thanks to Hitler, the Jews realise that they need a homeland where they can survive, and many people support this because of the atrocities in WW2. I admit that it is odd how some people support a homeland for Jews so that there is no further ethnic cleansing, yet ethnic cleansing in former Yugoslavia and in many parts of Africa went virtually ignored or acted upon too late. In any case, no ethnic cleansing should be tolerated - Period. Having said this, the conduct of the Israelis has been ing and I don't agree with many of their policies for dealing with Palestinians. Despite this, terrorism on the part of some radical Palestinians just keeps making the situation worse. It is all a vicious circle[/qoute]

If Europeans felt sorry for Jews than why didn't they give Jews a homeland in European were this Jews belong. Why are the Palastinians who had nothing to do with Hitler and extermination of Jews the ones who have to evicted of their land to accommedate the jewish homeland. The Palastinians have lived in Palastine as long as history...even DNA supports Palastinian claim that this land is their ancestral land, so why have they been evicted the land of their forefathers, to please people who they have never wronged...matter fact Jews had more right in Palastine than in anywhere in Europe before the establishment of Isreal. European Jews with help of the West used might to conquer the Palastinians and subdue clueless leaders Arabs. But as they say history is bond to repeat itself...and this is certainly true in this case. Remember the Christian crusaders conquered Palastine for 80 years to establish their Kingdom of Heaven, muslims were only able to regain Palastine when they were able unite..in this case its only matter of time when the Zoinist dream of Isreal comes crumpling down...

yshimy wrote:So if we "considered this is our land... will we have it???

Yes, if you have the biggest guns ...

Lionheart wrote:Remember the Christian crusaders conquered Palastine for 80 years to establish their Kingdom of Heaven, muslims were only able to regain Palastine when they were able unite..in this case its only matter of time when the Zoinist dream of Isreal comes crumpling down...

Or when the demographics change so the Israeli Arabs get the majority vote - they have more children than Israeli Jews.

MS wrote:I repeat the question to Chocoholic, Dubai Knight and Arniegang. Do you think the Palastenians have the right in an independent country of their own?

You are wasting you time if you think right wing Christians are going to support a Palastinian state...The right wing Christians believe God promised Jews land from the nile to Euphrates...from Sudan to Iraq..basically. This is why Choco and arniega are always anti Muslim... because Islam stands in their way of totally domnination.


The messieh of the Jews like the messieh of Evengical Christians is none other than Dajjal....

arniegang wrote:Then is there no way the Arab Nation could not give up some of their borders to create a "state of palestine".?

Palastinian have their own land...Palastine whom the imperlist European ridding themself of Jews gave to Zoinist Jews.


Why didn't European give up parts of their lands if they felt sorry or Jews...afterall is they who have committed crimes against the Jews not Arab or Muslims? Hitler was Christian and European...not a middleastern and muslim and most certainly he was not a Palastinian.

Lionheart wrote:
You are wasting you time if you think right wing Christians are going to support a Palastinian state...The right wing Christians believe God promised Jews land from the nile to Euphrates...from Sudan to Iraq..basically. This is why Choco and arniega are always anti Muslim... because Islam stands in their way of totally domnination.


The messieh of the Jews like the messieh of Evengical Christians is none other than Dajjal....

Choco is an athiest, her choice of athiesm may or may not be ideal but she is not a Christian fundamentalist.

Arnie is not all that religioius from what I picked up.

Anti-Muslim? While I doubt they are embracing Islam and Muslims on a daily basis, I would not characterise them as anti-Muslim.

As for fanatical Christians, well such people (like Bush) have been brainwashed by the zionist lobby.

As for the messiah of the Jews, yes, it is Dajjal. Roman Cathlics, Greek Orthodox, Eastern Catholic, etc all support that claim. Dajjal is the anti-Christ for all who are not sure and it is this anti-Christ who the Jews will think of as their savior and embrace on the End of Days. The Jews did not recognize Jesus 2000 years ago and turned their backs on him, they will do the same when they turn their backs on Jesus's return and embrace Dajjal (anti-Christ).

This is written and beleived by 3 billion people (plus) worldwide.

A Warrant for Genocide

Too Many Palestinians: "Gaza's high birth rate has made the political problem more intractable...breeding... suicide bombers." Source: Walter Laqueur, Center for Strategic and International Studies, Washington D.C. writing in "This Isn't the Time for Peace," Wall Street Journal, March 27, 2002

The IronWall

In 1923, radical Zionist Ze'ev Jabotinsky-- spiritual father of not only of Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin but of Brooklyn Rabbi Meir Kahane-- wrote that the "sole way" for Jews to deal with Arabs in Palestine was through "total avoidance of all attempts to arrive at a settlement"-which Jabotinsky euphemistically termed the "iron wall" approach. Not coincidentally, a picture of Jabotinsky graces Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's desk. Source: The Village Voice, "Death Wish in the Holy Land," Dec. 12, 2001

Wall Sreet Journal Columnist Calls for Bombings, Kidnappings and Torture of Palestinians

In an editorial in the august Wall Street Journal, the flagship publication of America's corporate elite, Israeli columnist Hillel Halkin called for bombing, kidnapping and torturing Palestinians:

"I can make careful use of the intelligence at Israel's disposal to identify, locate and kill...with minimal loss of innocent life, by such means as booby-trapping their telephones, rocketing their cars and offices, etc. In a word, assassinate them. Sounds good to me.

"...hold a trial with the help of witnesses similary abducted from the Palestinian territories. If necessary it (Israel) should apply physical pressure (a euphemism for torture) to these witnesses..." The Wall Street Journal, August 28, 2001, p. A14.

Rabbi Calls for Genocide of Arabs

[size=12]During a sermon preceding the 2001 Passover holiday, the influential Israeli Rabbi Ovadia Yosef exclaimed: "May the Holy Name visit retribution on the Arab heads, and cause their seed to be lost, and annihilate them." He added: "It is forbidden to have pity on them. We must give them missiles with relish, annihilate them. Evil ones, damnable ones." Source: Ha'aretz April 12, 2001[/size]

Israeli Minister in Sharon's Cabinet Wants All Palestinians Expelled

Israeli Minister Rechavam Ze'evi, who took his place in Ariel Sharon's cabinet March 7, 2001, a former Israeli army major-general, wants the 3 million Palestinians expelled from the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Ze'evi is the founder of the Moledet party.

Joining him in Sharon's cabinet is the Russian-Jewish immigrant Avigdor Lieberman, the new infrastructure minister. The leader of a political party, Mr Lieberman has called for Israel to bomb Egypt's Aswan dam.

Ze'evi will push for the invasion of Palestinian-ruled towns to end the resistance. He "wants to cleanse the West Bank of Palestinians. The Arabs living in the West Bank and Gaza have to be transferred..." He has been drawing up battle scenarios for Sharon, and has joined Lieberman in demanding assurances that Mr Sharon will invade the West Bank and Gaza Strip. He also wants the army to unleash attack dogs on Palestinian demonstrators.

Source: Suzanne Goldenberg, The Guardian (London). March 7, 2001

Statements by the Founders of Zionism and the Israeli State

"We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel...Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours."-Rafael Eitan, chief of staff of the Israel Defense Forces, quoted in Yediot Ahronot, April 13, 1983, and The New York Times, April 14, 1983.

"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."-Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25,1982.

"We must do everything to ensure they [the Palestinian refugees] never do return."-David Ben-Gurion, in his diary, July 18, 1948, quoted in Michael Bar Zohar's "Ben-Gurion: the Armed Prophet," Prentice-Hall, 1967, p. 157.

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."-Israel Koenig, "The Koenig Memorandum."

"We shall reduce the Arab population to a community of woodcutters and waiters."-Uri Lubrani, Israeli Prime Minister Ben-Gurion's special adviser on Arab Affairs. Source: "The Arabs in Israel" by Sabri Jiryas.

"...the need to sustain the character of the state which will henceforth be Jewish...with a non-Jewish minority limited to 15 percent. I had already reached this fundamental position as early as 1940 [and] it is entered in my diary."-Joseph Weitz, head of the Jewish Agency's Colonization Department. From "Israel: an Apartheid State" by Uri Davis, p. 5.

"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."-Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.

"Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."-Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, speaking of the Arabs of Palestine, "Complete Diaries," June 12, 1895 entry.

Jewish Racism and Terorrism According to Rabbi Ginsburg

Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg, head of the Kever Yossev Yeshiva (school of Talmud) in Nablus stated, "The blood of the Jewish people is loved by the Lord; it is therefore redder and their life is preferable."

The killing by a Jew of a non-Jew, i.e. a Palestinian, is considered essentially a good deed, and Jews should therefore have no compunction about it. Source: Yitzhak Ginsburg, "Five General Religious Duties Which Lie Behind the Act of the Saintly, Late Rabbi Baruch Goldstein, May his Blood be Avenged"

Rabbis Place Curse in a Midnight Ceremony in an Israeli Cemetery

ACRE, OCCUPIED PALESTINE - Ultra-orthodox Lubavitch activist Meir Baranes placed a Kabbalistic curse on Pope John Paul II. Three Jewish ultra-orthodox "haredim" took part in the pulsa de nura ("lashes of fire") ceremony in a cemetery. Footage from the rite was broadcast on Israeli Channel 2 television on Monday, March 20. Observers suspect that the ceremony was staged in cooperation with Channel 2, which denied the charge.

Baranes, 32, was alleged to have initiated the ceremony. He is suspected of belonging to a Jewish terrorist organization. Baranes said he and the others were followers of the late Lubavitcher Rabbi, Menachem Mendel Schneerson, a favorite of former Pres. Ronald Reagan. Reagan made the Lubavitch rabbi's birthday "Education Day USA" by public law. The Lubavitch are highly praised by the US media, including NY Times religion editor Peter Steinfels. The Lubavitch operate hundreds of hate sites on the world wide web. On some of these Jesus Christ is defamed and insulted. The Hasidic Lubavitch sect was founded in the 18th century by Rabbi Shneur Zalman whose book, "Tanya" decrees that all non-Jews are "supernal refuse."

"It is a shame for the Jewish people to go crawling to the gentile pope," Baranes said. Baranes's has published leaflets saying that the late Schneerson is God (the Lubavitch believe Schneerson was the Messiah). He has conducted numerous cursing ceremonies.

The midnight rite, which Israeli TV Channel 2 said was enacted last Thursday, March 16 in a cemetery in Safed, recalled rabbinical curses cast on prime minister Yitzhak Rabin prior to his 1995 assassination by Yigal Amir. Participants in the cemetery sounded ritual calls on ceremonial ram's horns. They also singled out Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat and Syrian President Hafez Assad for curses. Source: Jerusalem Post | March 23, 2000 and wire services.

We will take a child for a child, Israelis say
Tension rose anew after an outburst by Israeli Foreign Minister, David Levy, in which he threatened to kill "child for child" if guerrillas rocketed Israeli border towns.

The Lebanese leader Selim al-Hoss, described the Israeli official as "evil" and "afflicted by racism and arrogance." Mr Levy, looking flushed and angry, told the Israeli Knesset that the Jewish nation would retaliate "blood for blood, soul for soul, child for child" if Hizbollah guerrillas in south Lebanon fired on Israel's northern border towns.

It was not the minister's first outburst in recent days. Earlier in February he threatened to make the soil of Lebanon "burn" in the event of a Hizbollah attack. Levy's behaviour added to indignation generated by the Israeli assault on Lebanon on 8 February, when Israeli jets bombed three power stations, injuring at least 15 civilians.

Lebanon's Selim al-Hoss replied: "The children of Lebanon whom Levy is threatening to kill will remain the torch of the resistance that cannot be extinguished by hate or terrorised by aggression. Their innocence will remain the light which eliminates the darkness of the sick spirits and exposes their bad intentions." Source: The Independent Feb. 25 2000

"Saint Goldstein": Jewish Holy Book Praises Mass Murderer of Palestinian Civilians.
JERUSALEM - Four former members of the Rabbi Meir Kahane's Kach Party distributed a book in praise of Jewish mass murderer Baruch Goldstein.

The four - Michael Ben-Chorin, Netanel Uzari, Yoel Lerner, and Yosef Dayan - issued the book in honor of Goldstein who slaughtered 40 Palestinian men and boys while they knelt in prayer in the Ibrahimi Mosque at Hebron's Machpela Cave, on Purim 1994. (Purim is the Jewish commemoration of vengeance against non-Jews).

The book, Baruch Hagever ("The Blessed Man"), has sold thousands of copies among Jews, and includes an article written by Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg, the head of an Israeli yeshiva (religious school). Ginsburg's article "sings the praises" of the killer and calls Goldstein, a 'saint.' "The entire book is indeed full of his praises. It should be noted that no Israeli rabbi (including the 'moderates' among them) has said a word against the contents of the book."

Ginsburg declares in Baruch Hagever that what Goldstein did in murdering the unarmed Palestinian civilians at their house of worship, constitutes, "a fulfillment of a number of commands of Jewish religious law...Among his (Goldstein's) good deeds, as enumerated, are...taking revenge on non-Jews, extermination of the non-Jews who are from the seed of Amalek...and the sanctification of the Holy Name.

"The murders have led, in the rabbi's opinion, to...clear knowledge among the Jews that 'the life of a Jew is preferable to the life of a non-Jew'...

"Goldstein is indeed being worshipped as a saint in (the Jewish settlement ) Kiryat Arba. His intercession before God is asked by pilgrims and it is reported that he cures the ill and generally helps those Jews who ask his help."

Sources: Ma'ariv, October 11, 1996; Jerusalem Post, November 12, 1996; Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, January, 1997.

Rabbi Sanctions Killing to Keep Jewish Race Pure
The Israeli Chief Rabbi of the Sephardim, Eliahu Bakshi Doron, in a radio broadcast on Tuesday, July 9, 1996, praised the Biblical figure Phinehas for having killed the Israelite Zimri, because Zimri had sex with a Midianite woman. Rabbi Doron said that Phinehas had committed a "pure" act. He then referred to Zimri as "the first reform Jew."

Reform Jews allow inter-marriage between Jewish persons and those of non-Jewish extraction, a form of integration long condemned by Orthodox Jews. A leader of the Reform Jews, Uri Regev, called for a criminal investigation of the chief rabbi, saying that Rabbi Doron's sanction of the murder of Reform Jews should be prosecuted.

The Israeli Who Allegedly Scalded Moshe Dayan's Daughter was Previously Convicted of Murdering a Palestinian
Yisrael Lederman, who was sentenced by a military court to 20 years in prison for killing a Palestinian, is suspected of throwing boiling water on Member of the Knesset Yael Dayan, while she was touring Hebron on Oct. 22, 1996.

Yediot Aharonot reports that Lederman had only served two years of his murder sentence when then Israeli Chief of Staff Rafael Eitan, who once compared Palestinians to "cockroaches scurrying in a bottle," pardoned and released him. Two years later, Lederman snatched a baby out of the arms of a Palestinian mother .

Rabbi Hecht, President of the Rabbinical Alliance of America, Praises Mass Murderer and Orders Assassination

Rabbi Avraham Hecht, chief rabbi of the Congregation Sha'are Zion in Flatbush, New York and until recently the president of the Rabbinical Alliance of America, a national organization of 540 Orthodox rabbis, called for the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin and praised Baruch Goldstein, who slaughtered forty Palestinian civilians while they knelt in prayer at a mosque.

Of Goldstein, Rabbi Hecht said, "I think Goldstein is a great man, a holy man," Hecht says. "If I ever visit [Hebron], I'm going to visit his grave."

Rabbi Hecht's assassination decree was issued on June 19, 1995 in the basement of a Manhattan synagogue, during a meeting of the International Rabbinical Coalition (IRC) , a 3,000-member international organization founded in 1993 to encourage the mass expulsion of the Palestinian people from their land.

Hecht, a member of the IRC's eight-person American rabbinic steering committee, declared that returning any part of Israeli territory seized from the Palestinians is a violation of Jewish religious law. Hence, assassinating Rabin--"and all who assist him"--is not only permissible, but necessary.

In his own defense, Rabbi Hecht stated, "All I said was that according to Jewish law, any one person--you can apply it to whoever you want--any one person who willfully, consciously, intentionally hands over human bodies or human property or the human wealth of the Jewish people to an alien people is guilty of the sin for which the penalty is death.

"And, according to Maimonides--you can quote me--it says very clearly, if a man kills him, he has done a good deed."

Cf. Robert Friedman, New York, "The Rabbi Who Sentenced Yitzhak Rabin to Death," October 9, 1995.

Anti-Muslim Hate Flyers Distributed by Russian Jewish Immigrant in Hebron

Supporters of the Islamic Movement staged demonstrations in the Galilee and the Negev June 29 to protest against leaflets posted in Hebron depicting the founder of the Islamic religion, the Prophet Mohammed, as a pig writing the Koran, the Muslim's sacred scripture.

Palestinian shows reporters one of the anti-Muslim hate flyers distributed by a Russian-Jewess
More demonstrations are to take place today, June 30, and a delegation led by Sheikh Abdallah Nimr Darweesh, is due to visit Hebron.

Ibrahim Sarsur, a leader of the Islamic Movement, said that if Israeli police allow, the Palestinians plan to hold a demonstration outside the Prime Minister's Office in Jerusalem, following the visit to Hebron.

"We...expect the country's religious leaders, such as Rabbi Ovadia Yosef and the country's chief rabbis, as well as the political echelon from all sides to denounce this blasphemy," said Sarsur.

"There was an outcry when Jewish Orthodox haredim (hasidim) burned an Israeli flag. We expect Israelis generally to also denounce these posters and those behind them. There is nothing more sacred to Moslems than the Prophet Mohammed and the Koran. These are the holiest symbols of our faith," said Sarsur, who is also head of the Kafr Kassem local council.

Sarsur warned that such hate crimes by "extremists calling themselves Jews" could ignite the whole region and not just inflame passions in the territories, if they were not stopped immediately and harsh measures taken against the perpetrators.

Meanwhile, 25-year-old Tatiana Sosskind, a Jewish immigrant from Russia, arrested Saturday night on suspicion of posting the leaflets in Hebron, had her remand extended by five days by Jerusalem Magistrate's Court. Sosskind is a follower of the late Rabbi Meir Kahane who declared that hating Arabs is a command of the Talmud (cf. CBS 60 Minutes, "Kahane").

The court was told that Sosskind had posted the hate-literature on the houses of local Palestinian residents. The Israeli police at first refused to arrest her, and gave the excuse that because it was close to the Jewish Shabbat (sabbath), it was decided not to arrest her but to wait until after Shabbat, Insp. Yitzhak Shilo testified in court.

But on Saturday afternoon, Shilo said, Sosskind threw a stone at a Palestinian's car and damaged it, and she was subsequently arrested.

But other sources testified that by then, the Israeli media had gotten a hold of the leaflet story and the police were forced to arrest the Russian-Jewess.

In asking for the remand, Shilo told Judge Shulamit Dotan that there is fear that Sosskind will not appear for future court hearings. Sosskind is a notorious anti-Muslim bigot and Inspector Shilo cited a previous case in 1994, when Sosskind committed a hate crime against the Palestinians, was subsequently arrested and sentenced to serve 60 hours of community service work, but "disappeared."

Sosskind, a Jerusalem resident who immigrated to occupied Palestine from the former Soviet Union six years ago, told reporters that she had depicted Mohammed as a pig because, "This is my response to the behavior of Arabs in Hebron. If their religion allows them to act like this, then he (Mohammed) is really a pig."

Her lawyer, Baruch Ben-Yosef, said that Sosskind was not arrested after she posted the hate-leaflets because it was clear the leaflets were satirical and not serious. He said she was detained only after media reports exaggerated the incident. Sosskind did not speak during the hearing.

[Sources: Private e-mail from an informant at Beir Zeit University in Hebron; "Jerusalem Post," June 30, 1997, Associated Press, June 30, 1997].

Good grief! The phrase "Seek and you shall find" comes to mind. If you want to search for extremist comments, you'll find them. What was the point? For every comment like that from Jews, you can find one equally inflammatory against them and/or the west. Ahmadinijad (or however you spell it) was on his pedestal recently for example.

No wonder the conflict goes on and on...

Why don't you look for something encouraging? Like the story of the Palestinian climbing Mt Everest with two Israelis (amongst other nationalities) right now.

Liban wrote:

Lionheart wrote:
You are wasting you time if you think right wing Christians are going to support a Palastinian state...The right wing Christians believe God promised Jews land from the nile to Euphrates...from Sudan to Iraq..basically. This is why Choco and arniega are always anti Muslim... because Islam stands in their way of totally domnination.


The messieh of the Jews like the messieh of Evengical Christians is none other than Dajjal....

Choco is an athiest, her choice of athiesm may or may not be ideal but she is not a Christian fundamentalist.

Arnie is not all that religioius from what I picked up.

Anti-Muslim? While I doubt they are embracing Islam and Muslims on a daily basis, I would not characterise them as anti-Muslim.

As for fanatical Christians, well such people (like Bush) have been brainwashed by the zionist lobby.

As for the messiah of the Jews, yes, it is Dajjal. Roman Cathlics, Greek Orthodox, Eastern Catholic, etc all support that claim. Dajjal is the anti-Christ for all who are not sure and it is this anti-Christ who the Jews will think of as their savior and embrace on the End of Days. The Jews did not recognize Jesus 2000 years ago and turned their backs on him, they will do the same when they turn their backs on Jesus's return and embrace Dajjal (anti-Christ).

This is written and beleived by 3 billion people (plus) worldwide.

Every thread that had positive things to say about Islam and Arab Unity...these two always managed to disrupt the thread with their negatives assumption of Islam and Arab Unity.

sharewadi wrote:Good grief! The phrase "Seek and you shall find" comes to mind. If you want to search for extremist comments, you'll find them. What was the point? For every comment like that from Jews, you can find one equally inflammatory against them and/or the west. Ahmadinijad (or however you spell it) was on his pedestal recently for example.

No wonder the conflict goes on and on...

Why don't you look for something encouraging? Like the story of the Palestinian climbing Mt Everest with two Israelis (amongst other nationalities) right now.

If muslims said anything remotely close to what the Zoinist said about Muslims and Arabs..especially muslims leader or muslim Sheikh.. they would be criticized, threatened with invation, called biggots, etc...but when Isreal leaders and Rabbis call for the extrimnation of Arabs and muslims, call Arabs rats, insects that must be crushed, etc...no Western media does not even bother to report...but yet When the leaders of Iran calls for the same thing Isreali leaders called for and have done to Palastine he is labelled a dangerous man that most be stopped, lunatic, genocidal meniac, Jew hater,etc. Why is one sides genocide and threats ignored, while the others side threats are seen as dangerous and real.




BS; If Ahmedjad and Iranian regime were anti jews, they would have certainly started with exterminating their 50000 local Jews and they would have never welcomed a Orthodax Jews to Iran.


http://www.nkusa.org/activities/Statements/2005Oct28Iran.cfm


The Orthodox Jewish response to the criticism of the Iranian President
(statement for Al Q'uds Day)

28 October 2005
With the help of the Almighty.

Orthodox Jews the world over, are saddened by the hysteria which has greeted the recent stated desire of the Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, to see a world free of Zionism. This desire is nothing more than a yearning for a better, more peaceful world. It is a hope that with the elimination of Zionism, Jews and Muslims will live in harmony as they have throughout the ages, in Palestine and throughout the world.

It is a dangerous distortion, to see the President’s words, as indicative of anti-Jewish sentiments. The President was simply re-stating the beliefs and statements of Ayatollah Khomeini, who always emphasized and practiced the respect and protection of Jews and Judaism. The political ideology of Zionism alone was rejected. President Ahmadinejad stressed this distinction by referring only to Zionism, not Judaism or the Jewish people, regardless of whether they reside in Palestine or else were.

We concur!!… Orthodox Jews have always prayed and till today, continually pray for the speedy and peaceful dismantling of the Zionist state. As per the teachings of the Torah, the Jewish law, the Jewish people are required to be loyal, upstanding citizens, in all of the countries where-in they reside. They are expressly forbidden to have their own entity or state in any form or configuration, in this Heavenly decreed exile. Furthermore, the exemplification of one-self, with acts of compassion and goodness, is of the essence of Judaism. To subjugate and oppress a people, to steal their land, homes and orchards etc. is of the cardinal sins, of the basics crimes, forbidden by the Torah.

We have long stood together with the suffering Palestinian people in their struggle for self determination and respect. Based on our religious teachings, we believe it is impossible that any lasting peace can be achieved, for so long as the state of Israel exists. It is towards this goal of true reconciliation that religious Jews strive; via Palestinian statehood, so that we can once again reside in harmony and brotherhood.

May we merit to see the fruition of our prayers. Ultimately we pray for the day when all mankind will recognize the One G-g and serve Him in harmony. May this come upon us in the near future. Amen.

Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss
Neturei Karta International
Jews United Against Zionism
www.nkusa.org
914-262-8342

Kanelli, Great post.

MS, of course I agree with the 2 state idea.

Lionheart, I simply asked MS a simple question which he failed time and again to answer and just blanked it everytime, so therefore there is simply no acknowledgement of understanding of what I'm. Plus why should the Koran be untainted by man? It was written by man was it not, therefore anything written by the hand of man will be biased to one perspective or another.

I'm hardly anti-muslim my friend, you just interpret things that way. You come across as anti-christian, anti-jew, anti-western as you shoot down everything we say or ask. I;m simply trying to understand, even Liban gets that!

Plus I do not understand why people focus only on the last 60 years, these issues go back much further.

And has been stated before if arabs are so concerned for their Palestinian brothers, why do they do nothing to help them? Is it a case of out of sight out of mind?

As I've said before religion is not for me as it causes so many problems as is clearly stated in this forum. As far as I'm concerned, Human Beings have a right to call somewhere and to live whereever they want so long as it;s in peace with others - an unreachable ideology? Maybe! But nothing will be solved until the bickering stops, and it's people like you with your constant, we deserve this and that blah blah blah that keep it going.

No-one deserves anything more than anyone else, but those who gain, work for it and club together for the benefit of others, it's really as simple as that! It's about time people stopped whining about what they have or haven't got and started working together and helping each other out.

And yes achievements such as the Palestinian and Israeli mountain climbers is fantastic, do you think these guys give a hoot about their nationality? No! They're just getting on with it and proving what they can achieve by working together.

I don't subscribe to any religion, and contrary to Liban, sorry make I'm not athiest, I'm agnostic, there's a difference. I believe more in spirituality and the enlightenment of people.

And yeah DK is right, Jedi is the way to go.

Lionheart wrote:

sharewadi wrote:Good grief! The phrase "Seek and you shall find" comes to mind. If you want to search for extremist comments, you'll find them. What was the point? For every comment like that from Jews, you can find one equally inflammatory against them and/or the west. Ahmadinijad (or however you spell it) was on his pedestal recently for example.

No wonder the conflict goes on and on...

Why don't you look for something encouraging? Like the story of the Palestinian climbing Mt Everest with two Israelis (amongst other nationalities) right now.

If muslims said anything remotely close to what the Zoinist said about Muslims and Arabs..especially muslims leader or muslim Sheikh.. they would be criticized, threatened with invation, called biggots, etc...but when Isreal leaders and Rabbis call for the extrimnation of Arabs and muslims, call Arabs rats, insects that must be crushed, etc...no Western media does not even bother to report...but yet When the leaders of Iran calls for the same thing Isreali leaders called for and have done to Palastine he is labelled a dangerous man that most be stopped, lunatic, genocidal meniac, Jew hater,etc. Why is one sides genocide and threats ignored, while the others side threats are seen as dangerous and real.




BS; If Ahmedjad and Iranian regime were anti jews, they would have certainly started with exterminating their 50000 local Jews and they would have never welcomed a Orthodax Jews to Iran.


http://www.nkusa.org/activities/Statements/2005Oct28Iran.cfm


The Orthodox Jewish response to the criticism of the Iranian President
(statement for Al Q'uds Day)

28 October 2005
With the help of the Almighty.

Orthodox Jews the world over, are saddened by the hysteria which has greeted the recent stated desire of the Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, to see a world free of Zionism. This desire is nothing more than a yearning for a better, more peaceful world. It is a hope that with the elimination of Zionism, Jews and Muslims will live in harmony as they have throughout the ages, in Palestine and throughout the world.

It is a dangerous distortion, to see the President’s words, as indicative of anti-Jewish sentiments. The President was simply re-stating the beliefs and statements of Ayatollah Khomeini, who always emphasized and practiced the respect and protection of Jews and Judaism. The political ideology of Zionism alone was rejected. President Ahmadinejad stressed this distinction by referring only to Zionism, not Judaism or the Jewish people, regardless of whether they reside in Palestine or else were.

We concur!!… Orthodox Jews have always prayed and till today, continually pray for the speedy and peaceful dismantling of the Zionist state. As per the teachings of the Torah, the Jewish law, the Jewish people are required to be loyal, upstanding citizens, in all of the countries where-in they reside. They are expressly forbidden to have their own entity or state in any form or configuration, in this Heavenly decreed exile. Furthermore, the exemplification of one-self, with acts of compassion and goodness, is of the essence of Judaism. To subjugate and oppress a people, to steal their land, homes and orchards etc. is of the cardinal sins, of the basics crimes, forbidden by the Torah.

We have long stood together with the suffering Palestinian people in their struggle for self determination and respect. Based on our religious teachings, we believe it is impossible that any lasting peace can be achieved, for so long as the state of Israel exists. It is towards this goal of true reconciliation that religious Jews strive; via Palestinian statehood, so that we can once again reside in harmony and brotherhood.

May we merit to see the fruition of our prayers. Ultimately we pray for the day when all mankind will recognize the One G-g and serve Him in harmony. May this come upon us in the near future. Amen.

Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss
Neturei Karta International
Jews United Against Zionism
www.nkusa.org
914-262-8342

Give me a break. How many people read the article you posted? Even the Danish cartoons went unnoticed by the majority of the Muslim world until half a year later. If the comments are very public, it catches the public's attention. It is true that there is a media bias, but it works for and against both sides.

I agree with sharewadi - anyone can find comments from extremists to use an example.

I, as well as many, have heard that that true non-politically motivated Ultra-Orthodox Jews disapprove of Zionism because of its political motivations.

I have heard of the visit because I saw it on BBC. So it is not all that obscure

I must be quick to point out that these group of Rabbis are in the minority because of the unfortunate politization of Judaism.

I must admit that it is true that Iran has a decent sized Jewish population and they are not as choked off as one would like to think. The Iranian policy (good or bad) is directed at political Judaism and not Jews per sae. Like I said, I neither want to get into condoning or condeming this because it would be pointless to start a flame war (and we know it will start one).

I can say that there is a need to get along in this world and that the core of Islam means Peace. Peace is true Islam, Peace is what Islam seeks and Peace is what Muslims need to impose on themselves and others. I say impose because it is a necessary must.

At the end of our live''s people, we will be judged (if you beleive in the scriptures) and no matter how much wealth, land, or power we may have had on this world, it will mean absolutly nothing to the man upstairs. Our merits will be our rise or downfall.

God... Whats with my endless rambling????

Lionheart wrote:If muslims said anything remotely close to what the Zoinist said about Muslims and Arabs..especially muslims leader or muslim Sheikh.. they would be criticized, threatened with invation, called biggots, etc...but when Isreal leaders and Rabbis call for the extrimnation of Arabs and muslims, call Arabs rats, insects that must be crushed, etc...no Western media does not even bother to report...but yet When the leaders of Iran calls for the same thing Isreali leaders called for and have done to Palastine he is labelled a dangerous man that most be stopped, lunatic, genocidal meniac, Jew hater,etc. Why is one sides genocide and threats ignored, while the others side threats are seen as dangerous and real.

Like I said, there's plenty of extremist comments on both sides if you look for them. Do you want to be right or do you want a solution that BOTH sides could tolerate?

Far from it that i am anti-muslim.

In contrast i find it most interesting.

Chocoholic wrote:Kanelli, Great post.

MS, of course I agree with the 2 state idea.

Lionheart, I simply asked MS a simple question which he failed time and again to answer and just blanked it everytime, so therefore there is simply no acknowledgement of understanding of what I'm. Plus why should the Koran be untainted by man? It was written by man was it not, therefore anything written by the hand of man will be biased to one perspective or another.

I'm hardly anti-muslim my friend, you just interpret things that way. You come across as anti-christian, anti-jew, anti-western as you shoot down everything we say or ask. I;m simply trying to understand, even Liban gets that!

Plus I do not understand why people focus only on the last 60 years, these issues go back much further.

And has been stated before if arabs are so concerned for their Palestinian brothers, why do they do nothing to help them? Is it a case of out of sight out of mind?

As I've said before religion is not for me as it causes so many problems as is clearly stated in this forum. As far as I'm concerned, Human Beings have a right to call somewhere and to live whereever they want so long as it;s in peace with others - an unreachable ideology? Maybe! But nothing will be solved until the bickering stops, and it's people like you with your constant, we deserve this and that blah blah blah that keep it going.

No-one deserves anything more than anyone else, but those who gain, work for it and club together for the benefit of others, it's really as simple as that! It's about time people stopped whining about what they have or haven't got and started working together and helping each other out.

And yes achievements such as the Palestinian and Israeli mountain climbers is fantastic, do you think these guys give a hoot about their nationality? No! They're just getting on with it and proving what they can achieve by working together.

I don't subscribe to any religion, and contrary to Liban, sorry make I'm not athiest, I'm agnostic, there's a difference. I believe more in spirituality and the enlightenment of people.

And yeah DK is right, Jedi is the way to go.

Hi Chocoholic,

When answering your question I tried to be as diplomatic as possible, to avoid any further flaming. I tried to answer. I agree in general to what Liban has said in his original post on this subject. The original bible is the word of God. Of course. Interpretations may be wrong though. In any case, I would never agree to give up the lands you referred to in your post.

Furhermore, I was the first to mention the 2-state idea. So the question is not really relevant to me.

Having said that, what I wanted to say is let's focus on a political solution that is practical, and is able to keep all parties happy.

As of our belief, the Koran is the book of God (just like the bible). Our beloved Prophet and his companions memorized it. Later it got written on paper. Bottom line, there is, and has been, only one single version of the Koran. The Koran that I have today is precisely the same Koran that was around 14 hundred years ago. It was never revised.

A final word on your note on our ability to lobby and solve problems. You hit the point. We are so bad at this. It is just ridiculous to go out and demonstrate by burning flags and whatsoever, then return home with empty hands. I condemn these immature acts. there is a long way we need to go in terms of getting ourselves heard, in terms of being able to lobby and solve our own problems. Thanks for the hint.

Chocoholic wrote:Kanelli, Great post.

MS, of course I agree with the 2 state idea.

Lionheart, I simply asked MS a simple question which he failed time and again to answer and just blanked it everytime, so therefore there is simply no acknowledgement of understanding of what I'm. Plus why should the Koran be untainted by man? It was written by man was it not, therefore anything written by the hand of man will be biased to one perspective or another.

I'm hardly anti-muslim my friend, you just interpret things that way. You come across as anti-christian, anti-jew, anti-western as you shoot down everything we say or ask. I;m simply trying to understand, even Liban gets that!

Plus I do not understand why people focus only on the last 60 years, these issues go back much further.

And has been stated before if arabs are so concerned for their Palestinian brothers, why do they do nothing to help them? Is it a case of out of sight out of mind?

As I've said before religion is not for me as it causes so many problems as is clearly stated in this forum. As far as I'm concerned, Human Beings have a right to call somewhere and to live whereever they want so long as it;s in peace with others - an unreachable ideology? Maybe! But nothing will be solved until the bickering stops, and it's people like you with your constant, we deserve this and that blah blah blah that keep it going.

No-one deserves anything more than anyone else, but those who gain, work for it and club together for the benefit of others, it's really as simple as that! It's about time people stopped whining about what they have or haven't got and started working together and helping each other out.

And yes achievements such as the Palestinian and Israeli mountain climbers is fantastic, do you think these guys give a hoot about their nationality? No! They're just getting on with it and proving what they can achieve by working together.

I don't subscribe to any religion, and contrary to Liban, sorry make I'm not athiest, I'm agnostic, there's a difference. I believe more in spirituality and the enlightenment of people.

And yeah DK is right, Jedi is the way to go.

[url]I'm hardly anti-muslim my friend, you just interpret things that way. You come across as anti-christian, anti-jew, anti-western as you shoot down everything we say or ask. I;m simply trying to understand, even Liban gets that![/url]


Please point out to me were I have been anti- Christian and I will apologize. About being anti- Western, I think I have clearly stated that I'm anti Western Influence in Mid east and Most of the Muslim world. I'm against Westerners telling other how to live, what is moral, what is right, what country could posses, sometimes determining what countries leaders. I also don't think I'm alone in appossing this, their plenty of people in South America,Asia, and Africa that feel the same way I feel and most of this people are not even muslim.

Choco Why is it that when someone in Mid East or South America apposses Western Domination he/she is demonized as Anti-Western..x. Hugo Chavex, Ahmedjad. But multinational corporations who take advantage of the poor people in South America, Oil corporations who have warmonging government( AKA Bush, Blair) to wage war to steal the little natural resources people in Mid east have, are seen saviors, liberators, etc.

And what are "Western" values?

MS, Thank you so much for taking the time to answer my questions, I very much appreciate it as it helps me understand where you're coming from and now I have a much better idea at understanding your point of view, which of course is valid and justified.

Lionheart - I give up!

kanelli wrote:And what are "Western" values?

Many tend to associate western values with those espoused by the US and to a lesser degree the EU.

Because of the arrogance of the US and the feeble approach of the EU towards the Americans, this has created the notion of "anti-westernism". The villification of Venezuela's Chavez or Brazil's Lula because of their stance towards nationlizing state industries and/or limiting cooperation with the US (as is their right as sovereign nations) doesn't help the case of the Americans...

Hell, the Americans even villify Canada on occasion as they did during the Second Gulf War because the Canadian PM didn't want to involve his country as was his just right in an immoral action.

OK, but I am blabbering now so I will stop

Kanelli, my answer was in the 1st paragraph. The rest is all me "venting".