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MS, interesting posts and thanks for your views, very enlightening.

Bringing up the discussion of the fact that non-Muslim women around the world tend to have more freedom when it comes to s.e.x is interesting, but I fear it is being used to justify Muslim men's views on the dress and the value of non-Muslim woman.

A woman's sexual history is her business and it doesn't make her any less of a person. The same thing for a man. Sure, there are non-Muslims and Muslims alike having s.e.x outside of marriage - and this can affect their relationship with a life partner, but what it doesn't effect is the way they treat other people, how they do their jobs and other aspects of their life and the way they participate in this world.

K, The argument also goes outside relgion and I think is even more a gender thing, funny how men are encouraged to sow their oats as it were, but if a woman does it and is opne about the fact that she enjoys it, then it's frowned upon - that's what I don't get. Again a male double standard.

Chocoholic wrote:K, The argument also goes outside relgion and I think is even more a gender thing, funny how men are encouraged to sow their oats as it were, but if a woman does it and is opne about the fact that she enjoys it, then it's frowned upon - that's what I don't get. Again a male double standard.

I have noticed that.

I personally do not agree with it and would request abstenance from my son as much as my daughter in the future.

What I find curious is: over 100 posts on the topic (albeit many repeat posters) but NOT ONE appears to be by a Woman Happy to Cover Up. All posts appear to be men justifying it (on religious grounds or otherwise) and woman (who do not cover up) against in (on right-to-choose grounds or otherwise).

I wonder why? Of course I don't know or pretend to know but it is simply curious.

Could it be that posting is not allowed either?

Very smart of you counting the posts, Concord. Maybe it was too difficult for you to count the people who contributed to the posts though. 6 people: 2 ladies who don't like to cover up, 1 guy who doesn't like women to cover up, 2 guys who try to defend their faith and try to make you understand another set of values, and 1 person who landed out of nowhere with his intelligent comment that posting is not allowed.

Yes, it would be nice if we get more people to contribute from both sides.

How interesting the ebb and flow of this post has become! Apart from the odd facetious comment, I have stayed back out of the discussion but have been lurking with interest...

Goodbai's initial post about whether 'cuddling' (and this does not mean s.e.x) between a male and a female whilst in a swimming pool at a 'closed from the public' 5 star hotel should have been reported with the vehemence that the local media seemed to treat it, has led to a lively debate on the relative merits or and mores of dress codes, from speedos to speed dating, men's dominance over women and womens defiance (or not!) of their lot in life and the variant s.e.x.ual habits of western and other societies...

Once more, in the tidal breaks between the two opposing sides, there appears to be a fairly unforgiving nature from both directions. OK, my turn to add my twopennys worth:

Dubai is attempting to build a vast tourist infrastructure at lightspeed and is tolerant of many of the sights and actions that are accepted as the norm in non Muslim countries. That is why the hotels have private beaches and private environments, so that these activities are NOT on open display to everyone. The majority of tourist visitors to the country are aware of the limitations once they step outside these protected enclaves and there are very few examples of people being warned or criticised on the streets. I have seen the most amazingly crass dress sense in some of the malls, from both male and female and, I might add from both western and Levant origins. (I use the term Levant as there are elements of freedom of dress that are accepted there, that would shock even hardened Europeans!) But still there appear to be few, if any complaints from the hardliners. I see ladies covered from head to foot walking side by side with girls wearing the skimpiest of outfits. There are men in ghutras, walking side by side with guys in vest tops and shorts.

We are undoubtedly very lucky to be living and working in an environment where these extremes of dress can be accepted, much the same as walking through the streets of London, Paris, Rome, Sydney or New York, you are bound to see all styles and varieties. A wander along Oxford Street in London and you will encounter Arab ladies still wearing their abayas, happily going about their shopping, and they receive no more attention than anyone else.

The differences between the two cultural stereotypes have their extremes but the blended grey areas are where the majority of people accept to live their lives. It all boils down to 'tolerance'. If Dubai is willing to tolerate and accept this introduction of western influence in return for the tourism income it generates, then the west should similarly be able to tolerate variations in dress and culture and religious belief. Thankfully, on the whole, we do.

No matter how hard we try, there may be things about both cultures we do not personally agree with or condone, however these are sometimes hard and fast rules that we have to accept and live by depending upon where we are in the world. Accept the culture and integrate into the society without losing sight of the basic elements of your original culture, and everyone should be able to survive with some semblance of dignity.

When the day arrives I see fat men walking down the Sheikh Zayed Road in Speedos...then I know that my tolerance level has been exceeded and I shall retire gracefully to the hills!

Tolerance requires an element of 'give'...from both sides.




Knight

I agree with your post to a big extent, Knight.


MS

Great post DK.

DK, agree 100% and have no doubt that there already exists a great deal of tolerance even here. Of course event places like London, New York, Sydney, Paris, etc. have intolerant people - luckily for al these are increasingly a marginalized minority. Tolerance is, as it should, spreading worldwide more that intolerance...

I carry my passport with me all the time and when I see the Guy you mentioned in your post and heading directly to the airport!

I find these posts funny in a strange/odd way to read. People express their views and base their stance on either their "culture " or "religion". Sorry, but that's crap. This is a personal issue. Funny that Liban and I would agree and we neither share culture nor religion.

GAB wrote:I find these posts funny in a strange/odd way to read. People express their views and base their stance on either their "culture " or "religion". Sorry, but that's crap. This is a personal issue. Funny that Liban and I would agree and we neither share culture nor religion.

And what does one base one's personal opinions on?

All of us are affected by our culture and religion - they give a base for our views on issues and they shape our behaviour.

Interesting? What is culture? Either where you have been raised ie your nationality or to do with race? My race is undertermined/unidentifiable and really I don't feel I identify with a particular culture. Life experience has formed my opinions and stance on "things". I am not religious but have been exposed to various religions and seen first hand the good, bad and very ugly side of religion. One can determine their own morals or ethics without using religion or culture as a basis to those values. My values differ from my family members, so I think the values one possesses come from within. Behaviour is more complex than just religion or culture.

GAB wrote:People express their views and base their stance on either their "culture " or "religion". Sorry, but that's crap.

It adds "authority" to an opinion. Instead of insulting me, you're insulting my religion and/or culture and then it's easier for me to criticise your opinion.

But that's only my opinion ...

Excellent point sharewadi.

sharewadi wrote:

GAB wrote:People express their views and base their stance on either their "culture " or "religion". Sorry, but that's crap.

It adds "authority" to an opinion. Instead of insulting me, you're insulting my religion and/or culture and then it's easier for me to criticise your opinion.

But that's only my opinion ...

Ok, I've tried to stay out of this so far, and see how the thread goes, but now I'm going to throw my views in to the melting pot....

An excellent point Sharewadi, and to a certain extent that is true of some people, but not all people.

I personally think that my culture and background has shaped the ways and views that I have. A lot of that is down to my parents and also my peers - their views, to a certain extent, start to shape your own – other peoples views and beliefs have a huge impact on you when you are growing up.

Sometimes, the surroundings you are in can't help but change your views on society. Certainly for me, personally speaking, I've become much more laid back over the years and that has come with a more relaxed attitude to many things - dress, s.e.x, religion etc.
Where I come from, when I was growing up, my town could be summed up as being white, Christian and working class - but now things have changed. More and more ethnic minorities have moved to the area, industries in the town have changed as have the people - life here is very different now, which is as much to do with the changing attitudes of people as the people themselves changing.
Most of you on the forums have travelled about, all around the world, as have I. You see different cultures and that certainly broadens your opinions and beliefs – to some it may change your views, to others it just strengthens their existing views.
What I have learnt over the years, and have come to terms with and am now comfortable with, is that everyone is different. Each culture and religion is different, but even within cultures and religions, people have vastly differing views on ‘fundamental’ topics. Whilst I may not personally want to going around drinking myself silly (I don’t drink alcohol) or smoke or sleep with every girl I meet – I’m comfortable with people acting like that. Its their lifes – they can do what they wish with it – that’s my view. I’m not going to ram my opinions down people’s throats – I’m hardly saying that I’m right and my way is the only way – its one way – and there are many ways!

So perhaps the thing I still don’t understand is how and why people get so upset and angry that a person is acting in a way they don’t personally believe in. Maybe someone can help to answer that for me?

Ok, I'll have a go at answering your questions TZ. If they were rhetorical then, ... um ... , you can ignore them

the_zooter wrote:So perhaps the thing I still don’t understand is how and why people get so upset and angry that a person is acting in a way they don’t personally believe in. Maybe someone can help to answer that for me?

Because they are offended by it, because they are jealous, because something has a material negative impact on their own lives eg if you insert a banana into someone's ear, they may go deaf. To answer that further ...

Whilst I may not personally want to going around drinking myself silly (I don’t drink alcohol) or smoke or sleep with every girl I meet – I’m comfortable with people acting like that.

Would you revise that statement if a girl acting like that was your friend? Cousin? Sister? Daughter? Younger daughter? Mother? Wife?

My point being that at some stage you will be less tolerant to the extent that it will be difficult for you to "live and let live". That stage varies from culture to culture and person to person.

I believe there are some cultures (Eskimos and Tory Strait Islanders?) where the fun interaction is at a level that Westerners would find odd at best, but more likely offensive and/or immoral. Especially if these people moved to your country and displayed that behaviour publicly. Now call yourself a Muslim and call them Westerners. Perhaps that explains better how Muslims feel when they see Western behaviour in terms of dress codes and fun.

Nice post Zooter. I tend to agree-everyone is different and there are so many variables within each culture and each religion I find it annoying that people have the audacity to speak for "all"..............I always think who died and made you king!


Sharewadi you should rephrase
Perhaps that explains better how Muslims feel when they see Western behaviour in terms of dress codes and fun.
to read
Perhaps that explains better how Westerners feel when they see Muslims behaviour in terms of dress codes and fun.
Because, hey, I've seen it from both sides!!
I also understand there are acceptable types of public behaviour and in most countries they are governed primarily by laws. One would hope morality is on a pretty even keel for everyone but it is not.

GAB wrote:Sharewadi you should rephrase
Perhaps that explains better how Muslims feel when they see Western behaviour in terms of dress codes and fun.
to read
Perhaps that explains better how Westerners feel when they see Muslims behaviour in terms of dress codes and fun.
Because, hey, I've seen it from both sides!!

If I understand you correctly then no . Because I was attempting to address understanding and behaviour acceptable within different cultures, not actual behaviour of different individuals - I think your statement is intended to address that yes?

What Eskimos/TSI find culturally acceptable is not in the view of most westerners. Never mind that some westerners behave in just the same way. Which means your statement is actually quite appropriate ...

My point is culture and religion does not define a person's ethics nor acceptance of behaviour-we are talking more about traits and individualities surely. I've seen behaviour from people inconsisitent with their so-called religion or culture. Quite frankly I find the articles in this paper one sided, with this hollier than thou attitude that doesn't wash when you actually have a good look around you-it is not just Westerners (which I presume they mean white skinned people-which I also take offence to because I am pretty sure but your skin colour doesn't determine your religion or define you as being Western, unless of course you are a bigot and stereotype) which behave in the manner specified.

sharewadi wrote:

Whilst I may not personally want to going around drinking myself silly (I don’t drink alcohol) or smoke or sleep with every girl I meet – I’m comfortable with people acting like that.

Would you revise that statement if a girl acting like that was your friend? Cousin? Sister? Daughter? Younger daughter? Mother? Wife?

Ok, firstly, my question wasn't retorical - so thanks for answering it!!

In answer to your direct response (above), I can honestly say that I wouldn't revise that statement. I have many friends that act like that - certainly 99% of my friends drink alcohol (most probably to excess!), most of them wouldn't think twice about jumping into bed whether every guy or girl that came along etc. I can't answer about a wife or daughter. With a wife, I would like to think that the 'sleeping with everyone' part would automatically become redundant because they are in a loving and serious monogomous relationship, but I wouldn't have a serious problem with them drinking. As for daughters, well a father would want to protect their daughters into adult life, but as long as you have brought them up well, and shown them the potential pitfalls of their actions, I don't see why any adult can't make an informed decision about their own actions.
Above all else, I said that these were my views and everyone is entitled to live how they want. I do see your point though, but its not relevant to me.

Sorry, but religion and culture do shape people's viewpoints. As much as you would like to say they don't - they do. I'm not saying they are the only things that shape people's viewpoints, but they are significant.

Sometimes it is common practises that shape people's views - they just don't think outside the box. For example, I had friends who had a home birth without a midwife or doctor - just the husband and wife. They did this for all three kids. So many people would call them irresponsible for not giving birth in hospital with trained personnel. Yes, it is the norm that people give birth in hospitals in many countries, but not everywhere. In the Netherlands I believe that about 40% of births are home births (with midwives though). If you ask a person why they are shocked at a home birth they might say that it isn't safe or sanitary, it endangers the child and mother's life etc. They many not have read the facts about mortality or complication rates for home births and hospital births - all they know is that the hospital is where responsible people have their babies. If you challenge that view they can just tell you, "Well, everyone gives birth in the hospital - it the modern way for women to give birth." Without exploring the facts or logic, people can be very entrenched in their opinions based on common practises in their culture. I hope this explanation makes sense.

Gabsy........................


Are you ok ??

the_zooter wrote:With a wife, I would like to think that the 'sleeping with everyone' part would automatically become redundant because they are in a loving and serious monogomous relationship,

That's a tolerance limit for you then - I mean if you're wife was unfaithful (isn't the statistic something like 30% of women and 50%+ of men are?)?

As for daughters, well a father would want to protect their daughters into adult life, but as long as you have brought them up well, and shown them the potential pitfalls of their actions, I don't see why any adult can't make an informed decision about their own actions.

Hmmmm.... and if she was 16 (legal age of consent in the West) and he was say 30 or 40? Or she had several on the go at the same time?

I'm not trying to wind you up (I hope you're not a father with a 16 year old daughter who's just met a 30 year old bloke!), just trying to say it's easy to say we're tolerant but sometimes we're not as tolerant as we say we are.

kanelli wrote:Sorry, but religion and culture do shape people's viewpoints. As much as you would like to say they don't - they do. I'm not saying they are the only things that shape people's viewpoints, but they are significant.

Very significant - not necessarily for everyone though. And people can and do change significantly also if their own ideas of ethics and behaviour become different from what they were brought up to believe.

sharewadi][quote="kanelli wrote:Sorry, but religion and culture do shape people's viewpoints. As much as you would like to say they don't - they do. I'm not saying they are the only things that shape people's viewpoints, but they are significant.

Very significant - not necessarily for everyone though. And people can and do change significantly also if their own ideas of ethics and behaviour become different from what they were brought up to believe.[/quote]

Exactly, and living abroad and having friends from other backgrounds helps people see and understand different perspectives.

People don't always change their viewpoints, but there is no harm in discussing about different viewpoints. For this reason I don't think our discussion in this thread has been "crap" - in fact I think it was very interesting.

kanelli wrote:Exactly, and living abroad and having friends from other backgrounds helps people see and understand different perspectives.

People don't always change their viewpoints, but there is no harm in discussing about different viewpoints. For this reason I don't think our discussion in this thread has been "crap" - in fact I think it was very interesting.

An excellent point Kanelli. People living in Dubai should feel themselves lucky that there is such a mixed and diverse population. I just think that if Dubai wants to become a vibrant, comopolitan, tourist destination, then some people's attitudes are going to have to relax just a little. Whilst they may not like it or agree with it, as long as it (whatever "it" might be) isn't thrust in your face all the time, then those with the problem shouldn't be so quick to condemn others.

My mum always says:

Zooter's Mum wrote:People in Glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

arniegang wrote:Gabsy........................


Are you ok ??

Fine, darling! Was I short on niceties last week? Sorry, if I offended anyone.
I didn't say the discussion was crap but I think I've already gone over it. can't be stuffed reiterating.

I think it is interesting to discuss where peoples ethics and morals come from-but you only have to look within a family say and see that even with the same upbringing siblings form radically different codes of conduct and for that matter likes and dislikes. Your interactions with others can hugely influence your opinions and your perspective and outlook on life. People are complicated.

LIVE AND LET LIVE

too bad there r so many who don t see the beauty of this

raidah wrote:LIVE AND LET LIVE

too bad there r so many who don t see the beauty of this

exactly!