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kanelli wrote:I'm not sure what you mean by "without any hypocrisy".

Yeah, it is a sunny day and as hot as hades, but I really look forward to going outside wearing a black sheet over my entire body. I'll just watch my husband and children swim in the pool and play soccer in the park in their bathing suits, shorts and t-shirts. Doesn't sound beautiful to me and I would never do it.

I still believe that a woman has a right to choose - so if there are women who are happy to dress this way, or allow themselves to be forced to dress this way by husbands or family etc., then that is their choice. I can respect that.

Without hypocrisy meaning not being forced and not doing it just to pretend to be a practising Muslim only to do un-Islamic things "on the side".

Just because you have no faith in the teachings of Islam doesn't make it any less beatiful. A veil is not supposed to be black per sae. Can be any color (culture makes it black in the Gulf).

So since you are not Muslim and clearly you have no faith in God and any of the other religions (not an insult), you would not understand what it means to submit to God. Therefore you cannot see the beauty in this and it is sad.

If you respect the veil that some women chose to wear then show it by not passing negative judgement on it by saying you do not think its beautiful. Just stop after saying "I respect their choice" then move on.

But many Muslims pass negative judgements on what non-Muslims wear - likening women to whores. The respect is not working both ways my friend.

To be honest, too many people submit to religions that contain texts that are very ambiguous. The sheer number of different sects of different religions proves that the number of variations in interpretation of the texts is significant. As well, the culture of the day when the texts were written is not always taken into account, and this could be important when interpreting the texts. Religious people should not just submit, they should analyse. Too many people do things simply because it is custom or everyone else seems to be doing it - and this might very well be the case with women who cover themselves from head to toe. We all know that there are some Muslim women who don't want to wear the abaaya or who cheat on their husbands or drink etc. There are "hypocrits" in every religion - with people practising how they choose to practise.

I'm curious as to whether any of you Muslim men would be willing to walk around your house and yard covered from head to toe in your wife's veil and abaaya etc. for a month. It sounds silly, but maybe then you'll know what it feels like for them on a day to day basis.

Do you think it is respectable when someone walks around in a tight revealing top with her boobs practically falling out wearing thin white pants with a black g-string or low rise jeans showing off 1/2 her string???

That is what I mean by a whore... Dressing the way you did in the Marina doesn't qualify for that kind of categorization. So no, I will not respect women that wear such clothes and neither should anyone else...

K, wearing the gutra and dishdashi is very similar to what the women wear in this region of the world.... So whats your point?

I agree that see-through pants and boobs hanging out is really tacky, but you know what - those women still don't deserve to be disrespected. If you don't like what they are wearing just don't look at them and don't talk to them.

To be honest, I like wearing spaghetti strap tops and dresses, tight shirts (with my breasts totally covered and a padded bra so no "headlights" showing). I have two styles of pants that I usually wear - wide-legged dress pants and curve-fitting jeans. In both cases, the curves of my bum are visible, but in a flattering way. I consider my taste in clothing very tasteful, yet I hardly wear some of my favourite clothing in public here because I worry about offending. Liban, I was wearing a similar outfit to what you saw me wearing at the Marina meet, and still got leered at. Men slow down their cars and try to get my attention. Okay, I was alone - but it isn't feasible to have my husband with me at all times! The fact remains that I am still considered a possible whore because of my genetics (a.k.a Western looking), not because of my dress. For this reason, I am starting to think that I should wear what I want here. I'll be considered "easy" anyway, because aren't all non-Muslim women "easy"? Look at all the TV shows that prove that non-Muslim women are sleazy and easy... I hope that you note my sarcasm.

Chocoholic wrote:Also I disagree with you on the men forcing women to cover up. In 90% of cases it is enforced by the families and husbands and has zero to do with the womans personal choice.

If a woman chooses to cover herslf as a sign of respect for her religion then fine, I accept that. But in the majority of cases this isn't what happens.

This is a flat lie. You have not seen the majority of cases. This is just the stereotype you hear of. From my personal experience in growing up in Egypt, where I would say 60%-70% of women CHOOSE to cover up, NOBODY is forced to wear anything. I'm quite sure this is the case in the majority of Islamic countries: e.g., Algeria, Morocco, Syria, Lebanon, Turkey, Indonesia (the largest Islamic country), Malaysia, ...etc.

Note that Muslims are about 1.5 billion. Arab Muslims are only 200 Million (less than 14% of Muslims). Gulf Arabs are merely 20% of Arabs. Egypt's population is 80 Million, a lot more than all Gulf countries combined. I'm telling you this because I'm sure you had the Gulf stereotype in mind when you claimed 90% of Muslim women are forced.

Again, the 90% of women are forced claim is a flat lie out there.

Chocoholic wrote:K, because he's a guy! And a guy who obviously reinforces these things, so how can he possibly understand our perspective.

Now you start judging. You don't even know me. You don't even know if I'm married or not.

Anyway, I'll comfort you. Yes, I'm a guy. But I respect women to the most extent. I respect what they choose...no matter what they choose. I do not reinforce anything.

It is a dissapointment that you misunderstood me. I only became aggressive when you became aggressive attacking those women who are free to choose to cover up, the same way you are free to disagree with them. I got agressive when I saw how much disrespect you carry to Muslim women who choose to be religious. That's part of the personal freeedom too. Personal freedom isn't just about beeing free to wear a bikini.

Again, just to make sure you know what my purpose behind all this was: I AM DEFENDING THE CHOICE OF MUSLIM WOMEN WHO CHOSE TO COVER UP, AND NOT REINFORCE ANYTHING. (the caps is for clarification not shouting)

One more thing. I want you to go back and read all my posts. I challenge you to find a single post where I criticized women who do not cover up. It is you guys who critisize Muslim women who cover up. It is my posiiton to defend them.

Just to clarify things again, I have nothing against not covering up. If I meet any of you and you're wearing shorts I would still greet you, talk to you, and respect you the same way as those women who do cover up.

Just to let you guys know more about me, I have female family members and friends who cover up and who do not cover up. I deal with them all in the same way. I have never approached a women who is not covering up and even suggested to her to cover up.

Having said that, it is my responsibilty to defend the choice of those who cover up if they're under attack.

agree that see-through pants and boobs hanging out is really tacky

I disagre yum yum





Ohhhhhhh K, you forgot to mention yer y Golf Skirt

ohhhhhhhhh i typed "d i n k y" and it produced a smiley

kanelli wrote: Men slow down their cars and try to get my attention. Okay, I was alone - but it isn't feasible to have my husband with me at all times! The fact remains that I am still considered a possible whore because of my genetics (a.k.a Western looking), not because of my dress.

I agree, this is terrible. The average arab/muslim also has stereotypes. This is an issue that needs to adressed also.

MS it just goes to show that it cuts both ways, it helps to be tollerant and try to see both sides of the issue.

MS wrote:One more thing. I want you to go back and read all my posts. I challenge you to find a single post where I criticized women who do not cover up. It is you guys who critisize Muslim women who cover up. It is my posiiton to defend them.

Just to clarify things again, I have nothing against not covering up. If I meet any of you and you're wearing shorts I would still greet you, talk to you, and respect you the same way as those women who do cover up.

Just to let you guys know more about me, I have female family members and friends who cover up and who do not cover up. I deal with them all in the same way. I have never approached a women who is not covering up and even suggested to her to cover up.

Having said that, it is my responsibilty to defend the choice of those who cover up if they're under attack.

MS, none of us said that you are criticising women who do not cover up. Liban was criticising them.

Even though you don't put pressure on family members to cover up, that doesn't mean that other people don't do it. I know a Muslim man who recently got married and he is now clamping down on what his wife wears. He no longer lets her wear a bathing a suit or swim in public anymore, and she has to dress more conservatively, even though she never dressed in a s.e.xy way before. I have a non-Muslim friend who has to dress conservatively every time her mother-in-law (who is Muslim) comes to visit. These people are pressured to change their dress but oblige to please the person who is important to them. I can understand both perspectives.

I never look down on women who cover up because they are the same women whether covered or not. What I was criticising was the logic behind why women are asked to cover up in the first place.

kanelli wrote:
MS, none of us said that you are criticising women who do not cover up. Liban was criticising them.

Learn to read Kanelli. I only criticized those dressing like whores.

Go back and read what I mean by dressing like a whore.

I am sick of you always not reading my posts and trying to, unsuccessfully I might add, slam me.

Liban

I think part of the issue is your use of terminology and in particular the use of the word "whore".

In your using this word you are generalising, the same as you state that others like Kanelli generalise about other issues.

Just because younger western girls dress differently and a bit "risque" doesnt make them "whores".

My daughters dress like how K describes but they are not "whores". It is just fashion, nothing more nothing less.

kanelli wrote:MS, none of us said that you are criticising women who do not cover up. Liban was criticising them.

Even though you don't put pressure on family members to cover up, that doesn't mean that other people don't do it. I know a Muslim man who recently got married and he is now clamping down on what his wife wears. He no longer lets her wear a bathing a suit or swim in public anymore, and she has to dress more conservatively, even though she never dressed in a s.e.xy way before. I have a non-Muslim friend who has to dress conservatively every time her mother-in-law (who is Muslim) comes to visit. These people are pressured to change their dress but oblige to please the person who is important to them. I can understand both perspectives.

I never look down on women who cover up because they are the same women whether covered or not. What I was criticising was the logic behind why women are asked to cover up in the first place.

Kanelli, having said that I never put pressure on family members, I haven't denied the right for men and women to discuss any issue with their partner. If your husband likes to party too much (I'm not saying that's the case), then you have the right to discuss this with him, to tell him that this hurts your feelings, and to ask him to stop. Britney Spears has done that

Muslims and non-Muslims have a quite different set of values, this is what I was trying to explain. So, it is expected and acceptable that a Muslim man discusses issues with his wife that fall under his set of values, and vice versa ....as long it is discussion.

MS

Define "discussion"

arniegang wrote:MS

Define "discussion"

Discussion is between two (or more) people with possibly different opinions trying to reach a conclusion that makes everybody happy.

Arnie, don't focus only on checking if "we" understand what discussion means. Also think about "your" own society's shortcomings. And it is not about clothing.

I would totally disagree MS with respect.

It is about clothing, otherwise like Kanelli says why would people look and stare and others like liban make assumptions??

It still comes down to the same thing in that people assume the clothes you wear give you a "label".

In realising our own societies shortcomings we dont assume because someone wears a particular type of clothing we assume what type of person they are. That cannot be said within the ME.

In the UK we accept and embrace others cultures and religion whatever their race or gender or colour and this includes their national dress. Again that does not exist in the ME, if you read Kanelli's posts.

Please dont patronise me MS.

I would also disagree with arnie with respect. I also did not mean to patronize you, arnie.

When I mentioned it's not about clothing I had this in mind. I was riding the Toronto subway and reading a widely read newspaper. I came across an article that was trying to explain what singles need to do if they desperately need to have s.e.x without rushing into a relationship. The writer, who is a relationships and s.e.x "expert" , was suggesting 2 solutions that are perfectly acceptable: (1) have s.e.x with a friend and call them "friend with benefits", or (2) have s.e.x with a total stranger as long it is safe. Most importantly, satisfy your personal needs.

I don't know if you think this qualifies for bein a whore or not. I'm also not claiming that you support this. But it is something to think about: how far will the Western society go in terms of values?

Again, the above is not about clothing.

Having said that, I admire the democracy and freedom available in the West. Most of our societies lack it, unfortunately. But not because of our religion. (BTW, what do you mean by ME?)

We have a totally different attitude towards s.e.x. Just because someone has a need but doesnt want a full on relationship doesnt make them a whore either. Culturally we are very different in that aspect.

S.e.x before marriage is almost now a pre-requisite. Pre nuptual virgins are rarer than rocking horse pooh in the UK. This also does not mean that every woman in the UK is a whore just because she chooses to have various s.e.xual partners before marriage.

I agree that we have different values, this is what I have been trying to say all along.

I wasn't talking about s.e.xual partners (whether I agree with that or not), I am talking about having s.e.x with a total stranger just for the sake of having s.e.x.

This is a general comment. It is almost impossible to convince somebody to change their values/way of life.

I thought this forum could help us understand each other more. Yes, I mean understand, not transform. I thought if we understand each other more, we could be more comfortable living together (in the West or the Middle East).

Maybe this could bring this thread closer to its end

Cheers,

MS wrote:I agree that we have different values, this is what I have been trying to say all along.

I wasn't talking about s.e.xual partners (whether I agree with that or not), I am talking about having s.e.x with a total stranger just for the sake of having s.e.x.

Why do you find this odd ?

What is the difference between a western woman choosing to sleep with a guy on a first date, and a Muslim/Arab man going to a night club to shag or in paying to shag a western girl for the night?

Which concept of this example dont you understand??

arniegang wrote:What is the difference between a western woman choosing to sleep with a guy on a first date, and a Muslim/Arab man going to a night club to shag or in paying to shag a western girl for the night?

there is no difference ...

was suggesting 2 solutions that are perfectly acceptable: (1) have s.e.x with a friend and call them "friend with benefits", or (2) have s.e.x with a total stranger as long it is safe. Most importantly, satisfy your personal needs.

I don't know if you think this qualifies for bein a whore or not. I'm also not claiming that you support this. But it is something to think about: how far will the Western society go in terms of values?

there is no difference ...

Then you have answered your own question, now qustion the morals and values of individuals within your your own faith with respect.

arniegang wrote:Then you have answered your own question, now qustion the morals and values of individuals within your your own faith with respect.

I am criticizing the shortcomings of my society, and of indivuduals of my own faith. I have done that several times in my posts. I have also mentioned what I like about the Western society. I have not seen anybody of "you" guys doing so. You don't need to. You don't have shortcomings, right?

We have shortcomings of course, but there again so many of you do like to keep pointing this out, constantly.

Fair enough arniegang.

In any case, the main purpose of the dialogue is to understand our differences and ways of life more, not to point to the shortcomings.

I agree MS, i hope you now apply this in future, as hopefully the rest of will also.

Sure.

I also hope that you understood our values, and that in the future you will not think it is ridiculous to condemn public cuddling.