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Liban wrote:It is to prevent women from becoming s.e.x. objects that this law was introduced in the Quran by God since back then most women where nothing more than the s.e.x. objects in Western porno movies.

kanelli wrote:There are women in tribal communties around the world (in warmer climates) who wear only short grass or fabric skirts with no top - are they Western p<3n stars?

Liban wrote:

kanelli wrote:There are women in tribal communties around the world (in warmer climates) who wear only short grass or fabric skirts with no top - are they Western p<3n stars?

They do not do that for any s.e.x.ual reason, unlike West p<3n stars that do what they do for money resulting from publically displaying their bodies naked and in s.e.x. acts.

Your argument falls on deaf ears in this case...

Uh, okay Liban, so you are saying that all the women in the Arab world were dressing inappropriately and that is why they were treated like Western p<3n stars are - filmed (wow!) and paid for sex? This is why God then told people that the women should cover themselves completely? Please correct me if I am wrong.

By the way Liban, how does a good Muslim like yourself know about Western p<3n I'd like to point out that p<3n is made in all parts of the world and really has nothing to do with how the average woman dresses from day to day. I resent any implication that non-Muslim women dress like whores because they are not dressed in an Abaaya.


Saying that women need to cover themselves completely sounds pretty patriarchal to me, as does making the woman responsible for how men treat via her way of dress, instead of making men responsible for their own conduct. Sure, women know that conservative dress can fend off some unwanted male attention, but covering yourself completely from head-to-toe? That seem a bit much, especially when men can wear what they want.

Ultimately, this is yet another case where religious folk can say "God says this is the way it should be, so I won't question it." - so I am not expecting everyone to agree. It is certainly interesting to look at the different perspectives though

I agree with Kanelli on this. I see the women being covered so to protect themselves from being s.e.x.ual objects because the men can't be trusted not to look and stare, so because guys can't keep their temptations under control the women cover up, it has zero to do with respecting women.

I also resent the fact that you guys see all western and non-muslim women in a bad light because of the way they might dress.

Might I remind you that in Victorian times, it was also taboo for a women to show any flesh, which is why clothing went down to the wrist and down to the floor. Showing anything like an ankle was a big no no. These were not arab or muslim women so by no means are you right in thinking that western society has always been the way it is now.

Plus just because a woman is not covered from head to toe, does not mean she has no self respect nor does it mean she shouldn't be treated with respect. As Kanelli has pointed out there are still many tribes in existance around the world who would laugh at you for not wandering around completely naked all the time.

I beleive the lizard I saw in my yard last week would understand me better...

Kanelli I am not saying that prior to Islam, Arab women were whores. I was saying that they were treated as such and were disrespected. Islam changed all that for the better.

I am not saying that all westerners dress like whores. That is not true. Obviously if you dress like Christina Aguilera or Brittney Spears, then yes you look like a whore and probably are one (Christina).

A abbaya is not going to make a woman a good woman. I never said that so I am not sure where you are coming from. Also I never said that westerners are dressed as whores becoause they do not where a abaaya...

Kanelli, read my posts properly. Please!

Liban, I disagree with you saying that before Islam women wre treated with disrespect. Look at Matriachal (apologies for spelling) societies, where women were revered and treated like goddesses and something to behold, protect and cherished. Plus many women in power in these societies would have Eunuchs (castrated males) as their s.e.x slaves. So in light of this maybe it is MEN who should cover up to protect their dignity and be protected from over amorous women.

OK, but Choco you didn't read my posts.

Islam first came to the Arabs and I was refering to ARAB women.

You do have a point but you didn't read my post very well.

Liban, once again you turn to insults. I'm sure you know very well that I am intelligent. In the future, please just clarify or don't respond again at all rather than insult by saying that lizards are more intelligent. Are you posting on this topic or only to insult my intelligence? Make up your mind.

Turning now to the topic. You said that women were treated like whores - but we are talking about clothing and why in Islam women are supposed to cover their hair, and their bodies to their ankles and wrists. This means that you are saying that Arab women's dress was the reason they were treated like whores until Islam came and women covered up.

You have not touched my points about the hypocrisy and double standard of women covering and men not etc. As well, as a non-Muslim not wearing an Abaaya I can tell you that even when clothed to the wrists and ankles, you can be propositioned like you are a whore. Why? Because you are Western, and the clothing is not associated with Islam. I never said that all women wearing Abaaya's are good women - I am saying that wearing an Abaaya will give a woman here more respect than if wearing Western clothing that still covers according to the rules of Islam (minus the head scarf).

If you would read my posts then you would not receive such a comment.

I will say this one last time.

The imperative to cover hair, neck, arms till wrists and legs till ankles in loose non-reveiling clothing was one of the things Islam did to improve the status of women who were considered less important than birds!!

There is no double standard. A man's body is not revealing, a woman's is. A man should over the only revealing area he has, ie. from the belly button to the knees.

As for Western women being treated like whores, it has nothing to do with ISlam and just the perception. Whether or not this perception is based on truth is not binding for that is the way they are seen.

It doesn't help Western women in all honesty than in their culture, pre-marital sex is not considered taboo and is openly discussed and embraced.

Kanelli before you get all hot and puffy again, I am not condoning or condemming anything that I have said about the perceptions of women in different cultures (and assoc.). I am just stating it as it is.

Liban wrote:There is no double standard. A man's body is not revealing, a woman's is. A man should over the only revealing area he has, ie. from the belly button to the knees.

Liban, would you please go and tell that to all the horrid blokes in tight fitting shorts and speedos on the beach then! Plus the ones with the huge hang over bellies, hideous monkey man body hair etc etc. Men's bodies can be pretty ugly at times.

I get what you're saying, but personally speaking the human body can be the most beautiful thing, an amazing piece of biological engineering, there should never be anything to be ashamed of with regard to it. It's peoples attitudes that make us ashamed and nothing else.

Liban wrote:The imperative to cover hair, neck, arms till wrists and legs till ankles in loose non-reveiling clothing was one of the things Islam did to improve the status of women who were considered less important than birds!!

Ironic you use the word "birds". And I presume you meant non-revealing although non-reveiling makes sense depending on your POV I suppose.

But that aside, how does covering something/someone up improve their status? Status is in the eye of the beholder?

If men wore eye-masks when out in public, then women could wear what they liked. After all, instead of covering up the grass, we put masks on horses .

great poitnsharewadi.

I guess it's like saying, lets cover all chocolate cup cakes with mustard, then we won't be tempted to eat them.

It should test a persons resolve to have these things.

Personally it's got nothing to do with the women at all, it's all about the men. And to be honest I've had enough of men deciding what's right and wrong. It's about time women overthrew men and took over as guys are just messing it all up.

Ahh Choco... the beach Speedo brigade ... I reckon if you ever had the misfortune of closer inspection you'd probably find that all the lunchbox comprised was a couple of shrivelled up old grapes and a tiny stick of limp celery

Made me laugh altho I think you forgot to throw builder's bum into the equation

Chocoholic wrote:great poitnsharewadi.

I guess it's like saying, lets cover all chocolate cup cakes with mustard, then we won't be tempted to eat them.

It should test a persons resolve to have these things.

Personally it's got nothing to do with the women at all, it's all about the men. And to be honest I've had enough of men deciding what's right and wrong. It's about time women overthrew men and took over as guys are just messing it all up.

Uh Oh! I can hear the strains of 'The Red Flag' playing in the distance! OK guys, duck! There's a gonna be bra burning and women chaining themselves to the railings!

OK Chocs, I have no problem with the girls taking over for a while, however I would like to point out that I will be first in the queue when the girls are taking their shirts off to dig the holes in the road and I am really not sure that pink, with a few sequins around the hem, classifies as camouflage when the girls go to war! Not sure if Gucci are doing co-ordinated rifles and bullets this season...



Knight

GoodBai wrote:Ahh Choco... the beach Speedo brigade ... I reckon if you ever had the misfortune of closer inspection you'd probably find that all the lunchbox comprised was a couple of shrivelled up old grapes and a tiny stick of limp celery

Made me laugh altho I think you forgot to throw builder's bum into the equation

Builders bums - ahahahahaha! Good one! Yeah It's pretty grim isn't it, particularly if it's a bit tufty.

DK, I just feel that guy time is up. I mean lets face it blokes haven't exactly done a great job when it comes to many positions of power.

Chocoholic wrote:
Liban, would you please go and tell that to all the horrid blokes in tight fitting shorts and speedos on the beach then! Plus the ones with the huge hang over bellies, hideous monkey man body hair etc etc. Men's bodies can be pretty ugly at times.

In Islam such types of clothing for men are forbidden.

Well that's one belief I'm quite happy to go with!

Liban, you subscribe to the double standard. I guess you aren't aware of it - perhaps the patriarchal mentality is ingrained in you. As a woman, I can tell you that men are s.e.xually attractive to women. Well fitting shirts and pants show off great shoulders, chest, back and bum. Men can have great legs, and gorgeous arms. Men's hairstyles can be s.e.xy, and a great smile, stunning eyes and generally good facial features are a turn on. If Islam was fair to both s.e.xes, the men should be covering up from head to toe as well.

There's nothing like a tight bum in well cut trousers.

But K, I always found that really weird, and I think it should work both ways.

Kanelli, say what you want about Islam and its fairness but the facts will not change. Islam is a fair religion where all of God's servants are equal and beneath him.

You can also try to belittle me and say that certain things are ingrained in my head of what not but you would be so wrong to the point of foolishness.

Oh and nothing here was to insult you so stop getting all hot and heavy over nothing.

As I said, some of you can say "God says this is so." There is no obligation to agree with me. However, it would have been nice to have some more exploration of the perceived double standard, or what the Quran says about the differences between men and women that warrant the different rules of dress - but that hasn't happened here.

Oh well, I tried to explore a bit. Shaf where are you...?

There is no double standard. Men and women have to be modest in their dress. Men and women are different in nature though. The whole body of a woman is attractive, and has to be covered. Men have to cover from their belly button to their knees, and what they wear should not be revealing and not tight. So you shouldn't be able to see their tight bums.

Look at the men performing Haj. Their arms and shoulders are naked, sometimes their whole upper body. I don't think there is a woman in the world finding them s.e.x.y.

Read the posts open minded. Islam came and gave women all their rights: to keep her own name, to choose her partner, to have s.e.x.ual satisfaction in marriage, to have her own wealth, to work, to have an education, ...

By the way, the vast majorrity of Muslim women who cover up do this because they are happy about it, and there is no other man or woman who forced her.

Moreover, Islam has 1.5 billion passionate followers, and is the fastest growing religion in the world. Islam is logic and makes sense. I suggest that you read about it in an open minded way.

Are you implying that because I disagree I am not open-minded? Islam is not for me - in fact, no religion is for me. What to you is logical is not necessarily logical for everyone else.

Why are men's arms not s.e.xual yet women's arms are?

If you read my posts carefully you'd see that I said that Islam is not equal when it comes to the issue of dress. I did not bring up any other issues about equality or inequality between the s.e.xes in Islam.

Islam is equal in dress.

Think of it this way.

Women's s.e.xual centres:

hair (s.e.xier than any man's)
neck (nibbling on --> women like that)
arms (same as neck)
breasts (need I say more)
legs (women like being bitten on them)
belly (ticklish and can be pleasing to caress)
pelvic area and bum ('nuff said)

Men's sexual areas:

belly (same as woman)
pelvic area and bum (same as woman)
legs (not necessarly a centre but modesty is important)

So you see its simply because the centres of arousal of a man and woman are different. But Islam fairly and accordingly demands covering those affected areas

[quote="MS"]There is no double standard. Men and women have to be modest in their dress. Men and women are different in nature though. The whole body of a woman is attractive, and has to be covered. Men have to cover from their belly button to their knees, and what they wear should not be revealing and not tight. So you shouldn't be able to see their tight bums.

Read the posts open minded. Islam came and gave women all their rights: to keep her own name, to choose her partner, to have s.e.x.ual satisfaction in marriage, to have her own wealth, to work, to have an education, ...

By the way, the vast majorrity of Muslim women who cover up do this because they are happy about it, and there is no other man or woman who forced her.
quote]

MS, but it's not the same though is it? How many times have I seen men on the beach in tight swimming shorts walking along the beach, while their female companion is covered from head to toe - this is hardly equal.

Also I'd say the majority of marriages are arranged, so women are hardly given the right to find their own partner, as it's usually someone found for them. Many muslim women are denied education, denied the right to work, denied the right to have their own money and possessions.

And many, many are forced to cover up through pressure from their families or husbands. So I totally disagree with virtually everything in your post, as very rarely does any of it actually happen.

Liban wrote:Islam is equal in dress.

Think of it this way.

Women's s.e.xual centres:

hair (s.e.xier than any man's)
neck (nibbling on --> women like that)
arms (same as neck)
breasts (need I say more)
legs (women like being bitten on them)
belly (ticklish and can be pleasing to caress)
pelvic area and bum ('nuff said)

Men's fun areas:

belly (same as woman)
pelvic area and bum (same as woman)
legs (not necessarly a centre but modesty is important)

So you see its simply because the centres of arousal of a man and woman are different. But Islam fairly and accordingly demands covering those affected areas

I completely disagree How amusing that you presume to tell a woman what is s.e.xy about a man. The fact is, to Muslims it doesn't matter what women think is s.e.xy. In Islam, the men have decided that all of a woman is s.e.xy and she needs covering. The men wear what they like, no matter if women find it s.e.xy or not. For this reason, I think that Muslim women should be able to dress how they like. If they choose to cover up, they can, and if they choose to show their body they can. That is fair.

MS wrote:The whole body of a woman is attractive

Maybe . There are some parts (eg nostrils, ingrown toenails, lower intestines, etc) that I don't find attractive, and some women with no attractive body parts. IMHO.

By the way, the vast majorrity of Muslim women who cover up do this because they are happy about it, and there is no other man or woman who forced her.

And the ones in Turkey and Lebanon and various other countries who don't cover up are happy about it too no?

Liban wrote:Men's fun areas:

belly (same as woman)
pelvic area and bum (same as woman)
legs (not necessarly a centre but modesty is important)

Some women find men's chests, shoulders, arms, legs, neck, face, eyes, mouths funny also.

Anyway, aren't we back to where we started? Covering up fun objects ?

I love my husband's legs, and I nibble his neck, which he purrs over There are other women who think my husband is very attractive. Maybe I should suggest to him that he dress in a burkha so that other women don't come after him.

I hate feet! I don't like feet in any shape or form! Feet no matter who they belong to should not be let out - blurgh.

And it's true what one man finds attractive, another might hate, so how can you say that a womans entire body is attractive, full stop! It's not the case.

The bottom line is, no matter what Islam or the Koran says, men interpret it as they see fit, the women have no say, so it's not equality in any sense of the word.