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Cuddling, yes I'm talking about cuddling.

Now let me say I do agree that people should respect others and their culture and behave with respect in another land but I nearly choked on my coffee to read a long comment piece in the Emirates Toady which covered a quarter of a page about how shocking it was that the writer had seen a couple cuddling in the swimming pool area of a five-star hotel in Dubai.

Apparently the kids who were with the writer pointed to the couple "giggling and laughing". The writer says she was shocked but they were "oblivious to others" including the children.

She says: "What amazed me was that nobody did or said anything to the couple to stop them. Is it not traumatising for the children? I am sure they won’t be able to forget the scene."

"We must ensure that our children grow up with the right values in the right environment."

Now I can think of a lot things that might traumatise kids - like being exposed to p<3n, aggression or violence - but I defy anyone to explain to me how seeing a couple do something as natural and normal as have a cuddle, even in an amorous way, could damage a child in any way. And these two were even sat round the pool of their hotel... quick, get the cuddles police and hold the bloody front page!

The world (or UAE) seems to have gone mad when a newspaper could devote such coverage to something like this. Especially a city which has hundreds and hundreds of prostitutes and their pimps who go about their daily business seemingly untouched by the authorities (who don't even admit they exist!).

I tell you something, if Dubai is really serious about attracting millions more tourists from around the globe then it really will have to go with the flow and change some of its attitudes.

And the press here needs a great big fat kick up the posterior and should start getting to grips with some of the really big stories bubbling below the surface.

I think this is just an issue of seeing things in relative terms. As someone who grew up in the West (most probably) you view this as just an innocent cuddle. Now think of it this way. In a culture where a woman showing her hair is considered sinful, dont you think a couple cuddling in a swimming people would be considered a big deal ? Its just how things a preceived in different prespectives.

Now ofcourse the people in Dubai are struggling with this, trying to get the whole world to visit, live and spend money in the city while trying to maintin the islamic/arabic culture and heritage.

Eitherway i agree with you that this is not material to dedicate quarter a page for it in a daily paper. Although it would be a good thing to debate the cultural differences among the different groups in the city and how they cope with each other.

I totally agree with Maaad that that article space would have been better filled with a piece that debates the cultural differences and how all the different cultures in Dubai cope with each other.

I just wonder what life is like in the homes of people who don't like public displays of affection. Do their children see any love and affection between their parents? Will those children end up having a hard time expressing love when they grow up?

In the shopping mall I've seen local couples walking arm in arm, or the man rubbing his woman's back or holding her close to his body with his arm around her waist. There are other couples who just walk side by side, or simply hold hands. I have to say that I always smile whenever I see a couple showing signs of affection to each other, because it is wonderful to see.

If this couple at the pool wanted to have a little cuddle in the confines of a 5 star hotel pool where people of many cultures holiday - I feel that they have every right to do that. That doesn't mean that couples should be making out in the pool with excessive touching and kissing, but I doubt that anyone does that because they are aware that they are in an Islamic country. These people are paying expensive fees to stay at the hotel and a holiday in Dubai shouldn't mean that they can't show affection to their partner. There are other sunny and beautiful places to visit in the world where couples can be themselves and enjoy their holiday, so if people want to attract tourists here they will have to be tolerant. All that person complaining about the cuddling couple had to do was explain to his/her children that in some cultures it is okay to display affection in public. Unfortunately, it seems that this person wants to condemn it as obscene, rather than try to understand it.

Just as Muslims living in the West are expected to respect the Western way of life, Westerns living in an Islamic environment should respect the Islamic way of life.

This is our way of life: we cuddle only privately. Yes, it is natural ...only when done privately. This is our way of life, it's as simple as that.

MS, Sorry to say that 'No', it's not as simple as that!

The likelihood is that the couple were tourists seeing as the pool belonged to a hotel.

Many people visiting do not realise that overly zealous public displays of affection would be frowned upon. Dubai has opened it's doors as a tourist destination and must therefore accept that sometimes people will not have a great knowledge about local culture. You can't have your cake and eat it. If you want to promote yourself as a destination for tourists of all walks of life and other cultures then you must also have a certain amount of tolerance for the way they might behave when here.

A cuddle in a pool is certainly not hurting anyone, unless of course they were fondling and being overly excessive in their petting. When I was at a pool yesterday a couple were cuddling, no-one cared about it.

As Kanelli says you see many locals now walknig around hand in hand (please don't forget that in many western countries for two men to be doing this you would be frowned upon! as it's seen as a homos.e.x.ual thing!) But for men and women to have small displays of affection I think it's nice. And as Kanelli says when I see a naitonal man and woman do it, it also brings a smile to my face as it means they're happy to openly show how they feel about one another - it's lovely!

With regards to the paper - what can you expect from Emirates Today, a complete wasted of article space.

MS wrote:Just as Muslims living in the West are expected to respect the Western way of life, Westerns living in an Islamic environment should respect the Islamic way of life.

This is our way of life: we cuddle only privately. Yes, it is natural ...only when done privately. This is our way of life, it's as simple as that.

Yes, and many of the expats living here do respect the culture. Tourists within the confines of a hotel is another matter.

If Islamic countries want women to cover up, no public displays of affection, no symbols of religion - then why try attract non-Muslim tourists?

Maybe they should make separate hotels then. All the pious Muslims can hang out at select Islamic hotels, and the Western tourists can hang out at select liberal hotels.

I would also recommend a change to the cable television packages. I can't believe how movies are sensored by the UAE government and some members of the general public are shocked by snuggling yet the major cable channels show all kinds of s.e.x.y shows and music videos containing scantily clad men and women.

Good point K, I was watching VH1 the other day and man some videos are sooooo dodgy!

Many of the local channels force GCC artists to tone down their content but just play the western ones as is, which I find a complete double standard.

Also with many movies and TV shows, they'll edit out a simple kiss between a couple, but it's acceptable to see someone having their brains blown out and swearing and explicit language - the editors don't have a clue!

yes choc
i am amazed at the level of hypocricy which exsists for censorchip here...whereas some cable stations get away with bloody murder...showing everything and anything which is taboo...some other channels cant even show a hug let alone a kiss...in fact if u were to get one of those satellite dishes...you would literally have a numoroid choices of adult channels among other borderline and controversial channels...its like censorship is a failed experiment...swept under the rug like so many issues at hand...think i might get a dish!

i had to do a booking for some of our customers coming to Dubai, so, when i called up our agent he asked what nationality the visitors were, which was strange for me to hear, why would an agent care for the nation. Anyway, later that day i asked one of my friends why that question occured, he explained me that some hotels let only westerners and europeans stay in, i was kinda upset to hear that; it is a discrimination to me.
However, now when I think about it, I agree with the hotel policies, that they do not want to mix up different cultures for this kind of things not to happen. I do not see anything scary or dangerous in a couple enjoing their time in the hotel pool; it is not like they were making out in it in front of ppl, and i do understand we are in a muslim country, but u cannot make ppl who visit Dubai or come here to work become muslim.
When i speak out my mind on this kind of issues, ppl say we are in a muslim country, so, u gotta respect the rules here, yeah, we should respect the culture of the country, howevere, I also think that if a country opened its doors for visitors, they should be ready for ppl act like they do in normal life, u cannot expect tourists come here and act like they are muslim.
The company I previosly worked with back home had one of its labourers arrested, just because he went to Sharjah to see his gf, and she was by herself in the house she worked in, so, the neighbours called cops on them, I mean what is wrong with ppl, a couple wants to meet up, why get a guy in trouble for that?

if newspapers publishing that stuff was so scary, what about Dubai night clubs? Or, Bur Dubai area in a whole? Everybody just closes their eyes on that fact we are all very well aware of.

PPL listen rules about hotels for westerners and muslims is so racists.
In Egypt for example where I come from and also the biggest Islamic nation in the Middle East and the biggest touristic one we have never ever had such thing and we will never have it and we never had a problem of such kind. I'm very shocked to hear you guys agree on this hotel policy thing.
So cuz i'm from Egypt I'll not be allowed to stay in such hotels.
Here is a thought why don't we make hotels for every nation here so everyone would be happy

IT IS very racist, I am not saying it is good, but if u think about ppl who are muslim and getting offended by europeans doing something that is ok for them, it creates issues.
The problem is that everyone cannot be happy even when hotels are for all ppl, irrespective of their nation or religion. If hotels are open for everybody to stay in, everybody should realise they come from different backgrounds and should not freak out about ppl showing some feelings to each other, which might not be acceptable by other ppl's customs.
I also do not want to be banned from staying in the hotel just coz i am not from a western country.

IMJ wrote:The company I previosly worked with back home had one of its labourers arrested, just because he went to Sharjah to see his gf, and she was by herself in the house she worked in, so, the neighbours called cops on them, I mean what is wrong with ppl, a couple wants to meet up, why get a guy in trouble for that?

The letter of the law says that's illegal in Sharjah (in Dubai too). Which is why it's a good idea to figure out what your neighbours are like before having people of the opposite gender visit you...

Choco, the couple might have been tourists, in a hotel and not knowing the culture. Sure, I have no problem with that.

But, I'm talking in general. You say Dubai is open for tourists and should accept the tourists' culture. No, tourists should know the place they are visiting and be prepared to accept its values.

You say natural. This is very relative. For us Muslims bf and gf is not natural, s.e.x. before marriage is not natural. The only natural relationship is marriage of a man and a woman. Now, cuddling in public. Again, it is not natural. Again, it hurts people adn we don't want our children to see it. You say it doesn't hurt because you are talking about your set of values (which I repsect by the way). So, as long as you're my guest, respect mine. The same way I respect your culture when I am your guest.

I am in the west now. I wouldn't mock a couple kissing in public even if I know they are not married, and they are kissing in public, and even if all this is against my own values. I wouldn't also condemn it. So, you just have to ahve the same attitude ....

sharewadi wrote:

IMJ wrote:The company I previosly worked with back home had one of its labourers arrested, just because he went to Sharjah to see his gf, and she was by herself in the house she worked in, so, the neighbours called cops on them, I mean what is wrong with ppl, a couple wants to meet up, why get a guy in trouble for that?

The letter of the law says that's illegal in Sharjah (in Dubai too). Which is why it's a good idea to figure out what your neighbours are like before having people of the opposite gender visit you...

dont u think it is crazy, though?
how are young ppl supposed to date?

and, about Muslim and non Muslim cultures; in this case, prostitution in this country should be stopped. S.e.x. before marriage is not the right thing, now, how many men and women actually follow that, even being Muslim? The worst thing about it all is hypocrisy.

MS wrote:You say natural. This is very relative. For us Muslims bf and gf is not natural, s.e.x. before marriage is not natural. The only natural relationship is marriage of a man and a woman.

"Not acceptable" (depending on your beliefs) would be more accurate I think. If it wasn't natural, people (of all faiths and cultures) wouldn't do these things as often as they do.

IMJ wrote:dont u think it is crazy, though?
how are young ppl supposed to date?

1. The law? No comment .
2. Illegally, or live somewhere they can .

MS, Giving someone a hug, be it your mother, your father, brother, sister, friend, bf or gf is the most natural and 'human' thing in the world. People are not robots! Even UAE nationals give each other hugs - what's the problem? Don't make one where none exists. A simple hug is nothing to be ashamed or afraid of at all and reinforces the bonds of feeling between people.

Also I can't stand the 'your a guest in my country, if you don't like it - leave' attitude, it's awful! Yes people should respect local cultures, but if a country has opened it's doors and intends to make profit out of tourists as Dubai has, then you have to be prepared to make execptions and be more accepting of the way some people might behave. Plus have you ever seen any leaflets or info at the airports or onboard planes regarding these things? No! I certainly haven't, so people who don't know much about the place are ignorant of it, so how can you expect them to know - it's called tolerance my friend.

IMJ, also a point about asking the nationality of hotel guests, it's nothing to do with racism, I can assure you. BUt some nationalities are required to pay for their visit visas and the hotels have a big problem here with people of certain countries coming in, staying with them, then disappearing, so the hotels become liable to pay this money. So to protect themselves, you'll find many will ask the nationality, check how much (if at all) a visit visa costs, and this will be charged to the credit card of the person booknig the room, so if there's any problem it's covered. Or indeed they might well ask for another person to act as a sponsor for them whist they're here.

PLus certain hotels are well known for their unsavoury guests here, wink wink, nudge nudge, so they also obviously don't want guests who might cause problems for them by reporting what is going on. It's all politics.

Choco ...you changed the subject. Yes, a hug could be natural. Even a kiss could be natural.

The original post was talking about cuddling in a swimming pool. The impression is thus not just a simple hug or a kiss on the cheek or forehead.

All I was saying is that there is a cultural difference between the West and the Islamic world. There is even a huge cultural difference between the West today and the West 100 years ago. All I was saying is we do respect the western culture. So respect ours. At least understand it.

Also, I wasn't blaming those in the swimming pool and, of course, people have to be tolerant. I was trying to explain and justify why, due to the cultural difference, why people may condemn it.

BTW, I promise this will be my last post on the subject.

Cheers ...

MS, I understand and appreciate what you're saying - fair enough!

Yes MS, thank you for your posts. You explain well and make good points about the tolerance needed.

Sometimes it really strikes me how different Islamic vs. non-Islamic culture are from each other. It is really difficult when you have one culture that thinks that anything s.e.xually related should be kept in private and women are basically s.e.x.ual objects that need to be kept covered to stay modest and protected from male advances. Then you have another culture that has changed from more modest dress to quite a state of undress over the past 100 years, but men get pleasure out of their women looking beautiful so it is expected that women show off their beauty. (Yes, women in this culture are considered s.e.x objects as well.) The men are responsible for controlling their behaviour towards women, no matter what the woman wears, so women are empowered to dress as they like. As you can see - the cultures are different.

You think that in Arab culture, women are regarded as s.e.x. objects?

Liban wrote:You think that in Arab culture, women are regarded as s.e.x. objects?

Isn't that the reason women are expected to cover up? To not led men into temptation?

Actually, the Quran doesn't stipulate that women need to wear the head-to-toe covering that we see in many Islamic countries - but those countries have a patriarchal culture and that seems to have influenced the custom of women's dress. Yes, women are viewed as s.e.x.ual objects. If women have to cover themselves as to hide their charms and assets from other men, and therefore protect their modesty and protect themselves from harrassment, molestation or rape from other men - then the men clearly see women as s.e.xual objects. Women covering up is more for men to protect themselves from dirty thoughts and bad behaviour that might indulge in if they saw the shape of breasts and bum and legs through closer-fitting clothing.

kanelli wrote:Actually, the Quran doesn't stipulate that women need to wear the head-to-toe covering that we see in many Islamic countries - but those countries have a patriarchal culture and that seems to have influenced the custom of women's dress. Yes, women are viewed as s.e.x.ual objects. If women have to cover themselves as to hide their charms and assets from other men, and therefore protect their modesty and protect themselves from harrassment, molestation or rape from other men - then the men clearly see women as s.e.xual objects. Women covering up is more for men to protect themselves from dirty thoughts and bad behaviour that might indulge in if they saw the shape of breasts and bum and legs through closer-fitting clothing.

Kanelli, perhapes you should read the Quran before saying what you think it may stipulate in regards to this issue.

The Quran says that a woman should cover her hair, neck, torso, arms till her wrists, pelvic area, and legs to her ankles in a non revealing material.

It is to prevent women from becoming s.e.x. objects that this law was introduced in the Quran by God since back then most women where nothing more than the s.e.x. objects in Western porno movies.

Liban, I was referring to the fact that many women cover their faces, hands, ankles and feet as well. Some women don't expose even one millimeter of skin to anyone outside of their home. Do you disagree with my noting this custom of dress and its incongruence with what you just said the Quran stipulates about women's dress?

From your post you seem to come to the same conclusion as me. Women are treated as s.e.x objects that need to be covered so that they don't tempt men.

There are women in tribal communties around the world (in warmer climates) who wear only short grass or fabric skirts with no top - are they Western p<3n stars?

I promised not to post anything else on the (cuddling in the swimming pool) subject.

So this post is on the s.e.x object issue.

Islam has 2 sources: the Qur'an and the tardition of the Prophet (peace be upon him). Both are the sources of Islam. Many issues that are briefly mentioned in the Qr'an are explained in detail in the Prophet's tradition. For example, the Qr'an demands Muslims to pray. The precise form/procedure of the prayer is only in the Prophet's tradition. Having said that, the Prophet's tradition says that women should cover up everything except their face and hands (not arms).

It is very strange that this is interpreted as women being s.e.x. objects. On the contrary... this protects women from becoming s.e.x. objects. This only gives women the respect they deserve. Women are treated as s.e.x. objects by Western fashion designers, advertisesr, film producers , ...etc. Not Islam that just respects women.

By the way, 1500 years ago when women all over the world were only treated as (s.e.x. or other) objects, Islam gave women full respect: the right to keep her own name, the right to choose her partner, the right to have s.e.x.ual satisfaction in marriage, the right to have her own wealth, ....etc. Also don't blame Islam by certain countries that don't allow women to drive cars. This is ridiculous and is not related to Islam by any means.

But why do I see some Muslim men walking at the mall with their woman covered from head to toe (sheer black fabric over her face) - yet the man wears shorts and a t-shirt? Does the man not need protecting from becoming a s.e.xual object? Do men not tempt women and give them unclean thoughts?

In the West women are not leered at unless they are wearing skimpy outfits (a la Paris Hilton) that show their breasts etc. If women need protecting by covering up in baggy clothing, then why is there a relatively low rape rate in Western countries - and even then many rapes are committed by dates or men close to the woman, and often alcohol is involved. Basically, there is more to the issue than just what the woman was wearing. The logic doesn't fit that women need protecting by cover up completely.

Women here in Dubai can be leered at even when covered to the wrists and ankles. The simple fact that she is not wearing a piece of black clothing that is associated with a religion is cause enough to justify men's leering - despite the fact that she may well have covered herself quite modestly.

There are Muslim men who visit prostitutes because they want to have s.e.x with a woman, just like most men on this planet want to do. Ultimately, it is the man who must control his own behaviour - not ask all women to cover up so that the men feel less tempted to misbehave.

kanelli wrote:Lib Do you disagree with my noting this custom of dress and its incongruence with what you just said the Quran stipulates about women's dress?

Covering the face, hands, ankles, and feet is not in line with the Quran.

kanelli wrote:There are women in tribal communties around the world (in warmer climates) who wear only short grass or fabric skirts with no top - are they Western p<3n stars?

They do not do that for any s.e.x.ual reason, unlike West p<3n stars that do what they do for money resulting from publically displaying their bodies naked and in s.e.x. acts.

Your argument falls on deaf ears in this case...