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shafique wrote:Arnie - as long as you have the battery hostage, of course I agree with you!

Choco - I hadn't heard about females from the UK and US being raped and tortured in Iraq.. so you are right about no one 'harping' on about this. Was I mistaken in believing that there weren't any such abuses commited?

The one incident that did make it to the media was that of the female US private that was 'liberated' from a hospital, despite the fact that the doctors had told the US army where she was and that there were no guards imprisoning her. She was treated well she says.

I'd also like to put the record straight as to my view of the British army - I have 2 uncles that served in WW2 and my dad was a reservist (TA). I have great respect for the army and their professionalism.. they do a lot of peacekeing aroundthe world and keep us Brits safe.

I disagree with some political decisions and I am proud that I have the freedom to express these views.

Cheers,
Shafique

Shaf, I'm not sure where your info on the female private comes from, it was well documented (she's even written it in a book) that she was captured, held against her will, she was raped and the docs tried to amputate her leg, even though the damage to it didn't warrant it!

Chocoholic wrote:As I have said before, atrocities have happened from BOTH sides in any WAR and it is always unacceptable, but all this is absolutely nothing new! The only reason we find out about it, is that people are dumb enough to take digital photos and videos and then take them out of these places. What you think before this technology brutalities like this weren't taking place? It's alwasy happened, just now it's easy to document - but it doesn't make it right either way.

Female officers from allied forces have been raped and tortured as well, but nobody harps on about that or brings that to light. As with anything, it's the sad actions of a few morons who managed to get into the armed forces in the first place that bring the credibility down of the rest of the troops. The majority act with the utmost prefessionalism.

[qoute]Female officers from allied forces have been raped and tortured as well, but nobody harps on about that or brings that to light. As with anything, it's the sad actions of a few morons who managed to get into the armed forces in the first place that bring the credibility down of the rest of the troops. The majority act with the utmost prefessionalism[/qoute]



Choco...could you please provide us with information about the rape of female hostages at the hand of insurgents? If you can than I will believe you, but since you can't because there has never been an incident so far were insurgents have raped the female hostages they captured like the American and British troops and by the way its not only view troops who are raping and killing civilian in discriminately. Perhaps over 80% of occuppied troops would rape Iraqi woman if they had the chance and kill Iraqis indiscriminately, just like their fathers did in Vietnam....


Choco...Insurgents are fighting for their land and honor, what cause are the British and Americans fighting for in Iraq..... Oil, Greed, domination, Imperlism, etc....

arniegang wrote:K,

We will always go full circle here. The likes of Liban Lionheart etc find it easier to use the "west" as their "sounding board" to vent off their hatred etc.

But they have always ignored and will ignore the ing acts committed by their own against their own.

Lets be frank here, its cool to bang off the west and look like you care about your own and "hate the aggressors".

The reality is they actually dont really give a monkeys.

The west "cares" and to that end we will always be the subject of this hatred. Yes we make mistakes, but in representing and caring for the silent majority rightly or wrongly, at least we can say we tried and the intentions were there. This is more than any muslim or arab would ever do for their own. History over the last 30 years shows in particular, the Arab world as a bunch of Ostrich's that stick their head in the sand at the first sign of conflict between themselves.

arniegang... if you wish to address the use of propoganda, you don't need to point fingure at me and Liban, you need to point fingure at yourself and the media you watch in West. Because your beloved "fair and balance Media" has turned blind eye on the atrocities committed by your government in Iraq and against most of the third world.

Chocoholic wrote:

shafique wrote:Arnie - as long as you have the battery hostage, of course I agree with you!

Choco - I hadn't heard about females from the UK and US being raped and tortured in Iraq.. so you are right about no one 'harping' on about this. Was I mistaken in believing that there weren't any such abuses commited?

The one incident that did make it to the media was that of the female US private that was 'liberated' from a hospital, despite the fact that the doctors had told the US army where she was and that there were no guards imprisoning her. She was treated well she says.

I'd also like to put the record straight as to my view of the British army - I have 2 uncles that served in WW2 and my dad was a reservist (TA). I have great respect for the army and their professionalism.. they do a lot of peacekeing aroundthe world and keep us Brits safe.

I disagree with some political decisions and I am proud that I have the freedom to express these views.

Cheers,
Shafique

Shaf, I'm not sure where your info on the female private comes from, it was well documented (she's even written it in a book) that she was captured, held against her will, she was raped and the docs tried to amputate her leg, even though the damage to it didn't warrant it!

Choco...Isn't odd that she never claimed any rape or torture after her so-called rescue....only after 1 million dollar book deal did she remember that the Iraqis raped and tortured her... I mean what better way to sell you book than to claim that the enemies raped tortured me....

Four of the people in that Humavee died and she was the only one who lived from that crash, now lets see the Iraqis took her to somewhere and savagely raped her, then took her to the hospital, where they obviously cared for her as best as they could. , why not kill her....why would they go ahead and save her life, just so she could be used maybe later on as a witness to iraqi war crimes. Doesn't make sense to me....and how could she remember the rape when she was unconscious until she treated in the hospital...



http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1083110,00.html

Private Lynch's media war continues as Iraqi doctors deny rape claim

Sexual assault would have killed injured soldier, says medical team

Gary Younge in New York
Wednesday November 12, 2003
The Guardian


The Iraqi doctors who treated the American soldier Jessica Lynch said yesterday that they were "pained" by accusations that she was raped sometime after being captured.
The doctors insisted that the claims, detailed in her biography, I Am a Soldier, Too: The Jessica Lynch Story, which was published yesterday, were untrue, and that examinations of her showed that she had not been sexually assaulted.

Ms Lynch was unconscious for three hours after her convoy was ambushed and she says that she has no recollection of what happened to her.

But medical records which form part of her official biography indicate she was raped, according to the author, Rick Bragg. "The records also show that she was a victim of anal sexual assault," the book contends.

"The records do not tell whether her captors assaulted her almost lifeless, broken body after she was lifted from the wreckage, or if they assaulted her and then broke her bones into splinters until she was almost dead."

Ms Lynch's primary doctor during the three months she spent at the Walter Reed medical centre, which treats casualties from the war, backed up the claim.

"The exam in Landstuhl," Greg Argyros told Time magazine, referring to the place in Germany where she was treated, "indicated that the injuries were consistent with possible anal sexual assault."

Ms Lynch, a supply clerk for the 507th Ordnance Maintenance Company, has never claimed that she was raped. "Even just the thinking about that, that's too painful," she said.

But Bragg, a former Pulitzer prize winner, said it was the soldier's parents who felt that the details of her condition and of the alleged sexual assault should be included in the biography. "Because if we didn't put it in, the story wouldn't be complete. It would be a lie," he said.

The author, who left the New York Times this year after he was suspended for failing to credit a freelance reporter for doing the bulk of his reporting, did not visit Iraq while researching the book.

The claims have infuriated and shocked doctors in Nassiriya, where Ms Lynch was taken after a rocket-propelled grenade attack hit her Humvee vehicle on March 23. "She was a woman, young and alone in a strange country," said Jamal Kadhim Shwail, the first doctor to examine Ms Lynch when she was taken to the town's military hospital by Iraqi special police. When he saw Ms Lynch, Dr Shwail said, she was lying in the hospital reception, unconscious and in shock from blood loss. She was wearing her uniform including a flak jacket, military trousers and boots; none of her clothes had been unbuttoned or removed, as the book claims, he said.

"We only had a few minutes to save her life, we found a vein in her neck to give her fluids and blood," Dr Shwail told Reuters at his home in Nassiriya. "It was our duty to look after her and we did. Now people are saying she was raped, it pains us. The thought did not cross my mind.

"Her injuries were consistent with severe trauma, a car crash, nothing else."

Mahdi Khafazi, who operated on Ms Lynch's fractured right femur, said he had cleaned her body before surgery: "I examined her very carefully. I cleaned her body including her genitalia. She had no sign of raping or sodomising."

A sexual assault of that nature, he said, would have killed her: "If she had been raped there is no way she could have survived it. She was fighting for her life, her body was broken. What sort of an animal would even think of that?"

Khudair al-Hazbar, then deputy director of the hospital, said: "It was war, but we cared about her and we did everything we could for her. I spoke to her every day. She was frightened, but polite to us. I know she is grateful."

On April 1, after Iraqi forces deserted the hospital, it was raided by US forces. The event was filmed by the military through a night-vision lens and Ms Lynch was taken away on a stretcher.

"They attacked the hospital at night. There were explosions outside which broke the windows. The patients were terrified," Dr Hazbar said. "The Americans knew the Iraqi military had gone, so why they didn't come for her quietly, I don't know."

The dispute over the sexual assault is just the latest salvo in the media war over the portrayal of Ms Lynch's injuries, capture, treatment and rescue, which has intensified in the run-up to the publication of her biography.

Shortly after she was rescued by US soldiers anonymous American officials told journalists that the private had heroically resisted capture, emptying her weapon at her attackers until the last minute.

Subsequent investigations revealed that her vehicle had crashed after her unit lost its way, her M16 rifle, clogged with sand, had jammed from the outset and the Iraqi doctors had not only treated her well but tried to give her back when they were fired upon by US troops. Asked in an interview to be screened last night whether the military's depiction of events troubled her, Ms Lynch said: "Yeah, it does. It does that they used me as a way to symbolise all this stuff. Yeah, it's wrong. It hurt in a way that people would make up stories that they had no truth about.

"Only I would have been able to know that, because the other four people on my vehicle aren't here to tell the story. So I would have been the only one able to say, 'Yeah, I went down shooting.' But I didn't.

"I'm not about to take credit for something I didn't do. I did not shoot, not a round, nothing. I went down praying to my knees. And that's the last I remember."

Ms Lynch has also contested claims by an Iraqi lawyer, Mohammed Odeh al-Rehaief, who reported her whereabouts to the US military and who now lives in America. He claimed in a book that her captors had slapped her.

"From the time I woke up in that hospital, no one beat me, no one slapped me, no one, nothing," she said. "I'm so thankful for those people because that's why I'm alive today."

Jeff Coplon, who helped Mr Rehaief write the book, said last week that both he and Ms Lynch could be right: "One of the questions that could arise in the wake of this kind of trauma is that someone could believe they remember everything and their memory could still be incomplete."

Lionheart once again your opinion is biased in propaganda and unwilling to see another side of the issue.

Go and read the book BRavo Two Zero, and see what horrible things were done to captured RAF pilots in the first Gulf War - in the name of interogation, of which torture and mistreatment is an integral part - why do you think military personal go through rigorous training and told not to say anything apaprt from name rank and serial number - and wake up it happens on both sides, what you expect these things not to happen in a state of war, how completely naive of you.

It's not right on either side, but it happens non the less.

I have to admit this is the first time I've heard of allegations of rape etc of Private Lynch. It wasn't reported in the British media in a prominent way is my only explanation - I read papers and watch the news every day.

Choco - the mistreatment of combatants is one thing, that is war. In terms of torture to extract information, this is being done against innocents today - by the allies. All the fuss about 'renditions' - sending people captured to places where they can be tortured and be outside the Geneva conventions is exactly this issue.

Guantanamo bay is also a monument to the US flouting civilised rules of engagement and cynically holding men illegally without trial in Cuba just so that they can't avail of the laws that would have to be followed if they were held on US soil.

Reading through the article above - it is by no means clear that Pvt Lynch was raped or even abused. Her life was saved by Iraqi doctors - no one disputes this. She was un-guarded and the person who led them to her (her treating doctor) is living as a guest of the US in the USA.

I'm afraid that the scales of injustice in this regard weigh far more heavily on the allies than on the Iraqi insurgents.

Cheers,
Shafique

Shaf, With all due respect it was through the UK media that her plight was reported! Plus on virtually every news channel. Sadly I don't think we will ever know the truth as there are inconsistencies on both sides with regards to the rescue reports. But it's not all one sided, you have to look at the stories coming from both sides and make an informed judgement as to what the truth might be.

But I wish people would stop tarnishing whole regiments and people because of the actions of a few renegade people, certainly many of the insurgants are hardly innocent, nor were Saddam's men, nor were their actions towards captured allied forces in both Gulf Wars. You can round and round on the arguments till your blue in the face, it still won't change a single thing.

Plus I will say that no-one can ever really know what is happening unless you're there, therefore are any of us really qualified to comment on any of this?

Many people belive what they're spoonfed without taking a step back and looking at the situation objectively, just as Lionheart likes to tar all service and military people with the same brush, do you see people doing it to terrorists and bombers? With the majority no you don't because people are more intelligent than that - or I would hope so anyway.

Much of this stuff is smoke and mirrors and you'll only be given the info the forces, media etc want you to have.

As far as I know, there was no confirmation of rape in any of the reports of female soldier captives. Either they were unconscious and don't remember, and/or the doctors say there was no evidence of rape.

There are far fewer female soldiers or kidnap victims in Iraq to be s.e.x.ually abused, so I don't think that anyone should conclude that it wouldn't happen if there were more men exposed to more opportunity. Men are men after all.

I think that everyone has agreed that rape and torture is wrong, no matter who does it.

I'd also like to point out that it wasn't just the US who was supporting Iraq and Saddam for strategic purposes. So pointing the finger solely at the US as being indirectly responsible for atrocities commited by the Baath party is not really fair. There are so many excuses given when the simple fact is that Saddam Hussein was a monster who set up his own kind of rule that was mainly responsible for the atrocities. Iraqis raped and tortured their own people and the US was not telling them to do it, it was Saddam and the Baath party.

Choco - what can I say, I have no recollection of the reports. I've gone back and looked at the BBC archives and they do report the allegations which arose in her book in Nov 2003. Prior to this there were no such reports - all said she had no recollection.

I do remember the other news stories about her - the film deals and also the documentary by the BBC which showed the spin around her release.

There was another female captive in the war - a black lady named Johnson. She was shot in the ankle and paraded on TV as a captive. She hasn't made any accusations of rape etc.

Apologies for not knowing of the rape allegations of Jessica Lynch.. now I do know them. Looking back at what I wrote though, nothing of substance is changed.

We live and learn.

Cheers,
Shafique

Shaf, Like I said there are many different versions of what's happening to people on all sides in these situations. I would hope that they are untrue, but sadly in many cases not so.

What can I say the whole thing is a mess and there are atrocities takig place all over the world, it is by no means unique to Iraq, Iran etc, just take a look at South Africa, now that whole thingh is really messed up!

No arguments about the situation being a mess Choco.

Rape as a tool of war is not without precedent - it is still being used in Uganda by rebels, and was used in the Bosnian war (so much so that there are significant numbers of children born as a result), the japanese had sex slaves in ww2 etc etc.

The situation in South Africa is crime related and compounded by the rampant HIV infection rate there.

At the end of the day though, we all seem to be condeming the killing of innocents in Iraq and all other reported abuses of civilians.

The fact that Lionheart praises insurgents - who have killed many muslim men, women and children indiscriminately as well as troops of various nationalities and hacked off the heads of hostages - speaks volumes about his warped views. These people use terror against locals trying to go about their daily lives and want anarchy, death and destruction in that country when the overwhelming majority of ordinary people just seek peace and stable government.

Do you really think the ordinary Iraqi people support the terrorists who blow up those attending markets or going to pray? Do you think the families of the many policemen murdered think "What a good, honourable job these insurgents are doing". Shame on you Lionheart. You are a disgrace.

Peddling your propaganda is one thing but praising those who kill people you say are your brothers is an abomination.

GoodBai wrote:The fact that Lionheart praises insurgents - who have killed many muslim men, women and children indiscriminately as well as troops of various nationalities and hacked off the heads of hostages - speaks volumes about his warped views. These people use terror against locals trying to go about their daily lives and want anarchy, death and destruction in that country when the overwhelming majority of ordinary people just seek peace and stable government.

Do you really think the ordinary Iraqi people support the terrorists who blow up those attending markets or going to pray? Do you think the families of the many policemen murdered think "What a good, honourable job these insurgents are doing". Shame on you Lionheart. You are a disgrace.

Peddling your propaganda is one thing but praising those who kill people you say are your brothers is an abomination.

Insurgents target police and the so-called Iraqi puppet army who they see as traitors like anyone who was imposed on police and army would see. The Insurgents have never deliberately targeted or beheaded any Iraqis... the insurgents who have targeted and killed fellow Iraqis have been condemned by most insurgents groups in Iraq. Unfortunately the insugents in Iraq don't have the media to spread propoganda like Americans and Britians have.


GoodBia...You talk about view beheading committed by masked man calling themself insurgents...but you seem to ignore the thousands Iraqis the American kill in their deliberate bombings, their sweeps thorough villages, example the little girl who witnessed her whole family being wiped by American GIA's...but I guess the beheading of one foriegn contracter by masked man is more important than the killing and raping of thousands of Iraqis. The beheadings are terrible and sad, but the same way you feel sympathy for the beheadings of view foriegner in Iraq, I feel more sympathy for the thousands of Iraqis that die at the hand or occuppier that you don't hear in your local news.



[qoute]These people use terror against locals trying to go about their daily lives and want anarchy, death and destruction in that country when the overwhelming majority of ordinary people just seek peace and stable government.[/qoute]

I'm sorry but you been watching too much CNN, FOX, and the rest of crap televised to Americans...Iraqis are more terrorified and violated by the Americans who bomb them, rape them, arrest their man without reason, terrorize their children everyday. If anything the insurgents whether they be Sunni or Mahdi insurgents, they are the only real protection Iraqis have against Americans and puppet Police/military force, which have excuted more innocent Iraqis than any of the insurgent groups.


[qoute]Do you really think the ordinary Iraqi people support the terrorists who blow up those attending markets or going to pray? Do you think the families of the many policemen murdered think "What a good, honourable job these insurgents are doing". Shame on you Lionheart. You are a disgrace.[/qoute]


The insurgents are oridinary Iraqis, the same way the Vietcongs were oridinary Vietnamese forced to fight against foriegn invaders. i don't think the insurgents goal is target Iraqis, matter fact no insurgent has taken credit for the bombing of the shrine, they have condemned the bombings of market place and the bombings of masjids. The bombings in the market place and shrine are the work of the Americans/British occuppiers who want a civil war or Iraqi public opinion against the insurgents... I think a month ago I posted the story of the British soliders who cought planting car bombs in Basra. If these soliders succeed in their plan and the car bombs went of in Basra market, the media immediately lay blame at the insurgents, even though the occuppier planted it. The Iraqi Police and Military have killed excuted more Iraqis than any of the insurgents...Iraqi puppet police and military are tools of the occuppiers to oppress the Iraqi people, so they are fair target in the eyes of the insurgents. The American revolutionaries who fought for the their independent used to kill traitors who worked for the British imperlist...The Vietcongs used to kill the Southern Vietnamese who aided the Foriegn force... so why is it different when insurgents target the traitor who aid American/British occuppiers.



[qoute]Peddling your propaganda is one thing but praising those who kill people you say are your brothers is an abomination[/qoute]


I'm supporting my brothers who fighting for their rights, land and their people. Whatever you say about them to me is propoganda in the same manner whatever I say about the occuppier is propoganda to you.


In Iraq the only terrorists are American/British soliders....

Chocoholic wrote:Lionheart once again your opinion is biased in propaganda and unwilling to see another side of the issue.

Go and read the book BRavo Two Zero, and see what horrible things were done to captured RAF pilots in the first Gulf War - in the name of interogation, of which torture and mistreatment is an integral part - why do you think military personal go through rigorous training and told not to say anything apaprt from name rank and serial number - and wake up it happens on both sides, what you expect these things not to happen in a state of war, how completely naive of you.

It's not right on either side, but it happens non the less.

Choco.... Like Iraqi doctors who treated her said, any rape or trauma would have killed her. Besides she herself admitted that she was unconscious the whole time until she was treated, so how did she remember rape she couldn't even remember how she got to the hospital??




"We only had a few minutes to save her life, we found a vein in her neck to give her fluids and blood," Dr Shwail told Reuters at his home in Nassiriya. "It was our duty to look after her and we did. Now people are saying she was raped, it pains us. The thought did not cross my mind.

"Her injuries were consistent with severe trauma, a car crash, nothing else."

Mahdi Khafazi, who operated on Ms Lynch's fractured right femur, said he had cleaned her body before surgery: "I examined her very carefully. I cleaned her body including her genitalia. She had no sign of raping or sodomising."

A fun assault of that nature, he said, would have killed her: "If she had been raped there is no way she could have survived it. She was fighting for her life, her body was broken. What sort of an animal would even think of that?"

[qoute]and wake up it happens on both sides, what you expect these things not to happen in a state of war, how completely naive of you.[/qoute]

So far Iraqi insurgent or solider before have not raped American/British female soliders they captured. By saying this happens both sides you are justifying the Iraqi woman who have been raped by American soliders...but this is nothing new American service man who have been raping woman every country they been to. If you thing this propoganda please look into Japan, South Korea, off course Vietnam, Somalia, and know Iraq. American female soliders are million times more likely to get raped by AMerican solider than Iraqi capture.

Lionheart - in regards to the insurgency, what people are referring to in terms of terrorising the population are the bombings of civilians and religious shrines.

The attacks on Shia targets can't be viewed as anti-US. What are your views on this?

Women and children were killed by 'insurgents' according to reports we see on the media.

I agree with you though, that the reporting of Iraqi civilian deaths isn't given as much prominence as a european hostage killing, but that is the nature of reporting - image sells.

shafique wrote:Lionheart - in regards to the insurgency, what people are referring to in terms of terrorising the population are the bombings of civilians and religious shrines.

The attacks on Shia targets can't be viewed as anti-US. What are your views on this?

Women and children were killed by 'insurgents' according to reports we see on the media.

I agree with you though, that the reporting of Iraqi civilian deaths isn't given as much prominence as a european hostage killing, but that is the nature of reporting - image sells.

If insurgent groups in Iraq bombed the Shrine they would have taken credit for it like he the bombs of police stations, but no insurgents group so far has taken credit for the attack on the Shrine...what do the insurgents gain from targeting the shrine and Iraqi people other than give the Americans some more reason to stay. I know not all insurgents groups are playing by the rule, that some of them are targeting civilians either by deliberate or by mistake, I don't know. But the fast majority of the insurgent groups in Iraq are not targeting the Iraq civilians or masjid.


[qoute]The attacks on Shia targets can't be viewed as anti-US. What are your views on this?[/qoute]

I'm against any attack against shia muslim civilians...the same way I'm against any attack against Sunni muslim civilians in Iraq. The occuppier created this atmosphere of dividing Iraq into Shia, Sunni, Kurd and Chrisitan Iraqis, because its easier to rule and conquer people when they are divided....But I hope Iraqis could see thorough this deception and realize that their interest is unity.


[qoute]Women and children were killed by 'insurgents' according to reports we see on the media.[/qoute]

Insurgents have killed woman and children accidently when they were targeting the Iraqi police or Army... But I don't think they would target a old lady or children purposely, the same way American GIA's who have connection or feelings for Iraqis would.

Lionheart, coaltion military personnel do not target women and children. They target men who are involved in insurgent activities. Both insurgents and coalition forces have killed women and children because they happened to be in the line of fire.

You cannot say for sure that Muslim men wouldn't rape female coalition soldiers. It seems to me that there are Muslim men think that Western women are so loose and deserve s.e.xual abuse. Look at the group of Emirati men who kidnapped and raped the British flight attendant. In Finland there was a group of Somali guys who dragged a woman off and raped her in a park while her baby sat in its carriage. I can get propositioned in Dubai just by waiting for a taxi on the street after a doctor's appointment in the middle of the day! Being Muslim doesn't deter these men from engaging in horrific behaviour. How do you know there aren't some insurgents who want revenge for Iraqi women killed and abused? Do you suddenly speak for all insurgents and can you vouch for their character?

You know what, I can vouch for insurgents' lack of character. There is no honour in destabilising a country - it is bad enough that coalition forces went in in the first place. Who are the insurgents to say that everyday Iraqis who volunteer for a police force are "puppets" who deserve to be blown up? Many of the insurgents aren't Iraqi and they seem to have their own agenda. What makes them any different that coalition forces who aren't Iraqi and are pushing forward their own agenda? Let me guess, because they are Arabs and Muslims? Now that is a pretty stupid reason. The fact that you even justify insurgents' behaviour is a disgrace Lionheart.

Lionheart, I disagree with you saying that allied forces have caused the conflict between the various factions, these guys just needed and excuse that's all! They've been at it for years and now they just want to cause unrest and civil war.

Yesterday the Iraqi President met with seven of the different groups in a bid to get them to lay down their arms - it's a move in the right direction.

A stable and prosperous Iraq which is ruled by its own people and not puppet regimes is the ONLY way to liberate the land of the foreign forces led by the US and the UK.

Armed conflict is not working at this stage because ordinary Iraqis are sufering more.

Copying the Palestinian model is simply not working here because of the geopolitical situation in Iraq.

gosh that is just ing i didnt know that women were raped by americans
i saw those pics on tv where that demented american woman was posing infront of naked prisoners.
i didnt know there where more how come they didnt show this in the media

neways

muslims all around the world are in the worst state ever, we brought this on our selves, we need good and brave leaders, we dont need leaders who kiss american arse.

Actually Shafique, every time there are bombings or military actions, the civilian and other deaths are reported in the news. I am always seeing and reading news reports daily about how many people have been killed in Iraq. They may not be 100% accurate about numbers and are only reporting violent deaths, not other deaths that happen behind the scenes but are related to current instability in Iraq, but they are reporting deaths daily. Hostage situations are more dramatic because everyone waits to see if the hostage will be killed or released etc. You cannot compare the two kinds of news, because hostage taking is a continuing news story until the hostage is released or killed, while reporting on deaths is not.

Kanelli, I understand your point about the different nature of hostages and Iraqi civilians - if you read my point I was just conceding the fact that the media reporting gives the former more prominence, and I ended by saying that this is the nature of reporting.

One thing that does stick in the throat though is the difference in reporting of casualties in Palestine and Israel.

There are hardly any footage or pictures of the scene of Palestinian women and children killed, or their houses bulldozed etc. The recent suicide bombing in Israel was preceded by the killing of women and children in an artillery attack by Israel... I don't recall seeing any footage of the Palestinians suffering.. but by contrast we all remember the footage in Israel.

They even go so far as to mention the names of the people killed inside Israel... But when its a Palestinian, well the descriptor of girl, boy, man, woman or militant is used...

Very personal when it comes to an Israeli and impersonal for an Arab.... Thats not right.

True, guys, I have seen that sometimes, but not all the time. I have seen documentaries and news stories on BBC and elsewhere about the plight of the Palestinians, and also news reports that talk about the Palestinians killed - their names, pictures of them and interviews with the family.

Unfortunately, in places where so much killing is going on, they seem to only report numbers killed and injured and basic details. People are becoming immune to the bad news because there is just too much of it. To be honest, it is the same way with the hostage taking. When I hear about it now I think, "Oh, another hostage taking. What's the weather today." Sad, but I'm being honest.

u know, guys, i used to work with US air force back home and i came to realise that most of them were very ignorant, not all, i have to say there are a good number of well educated and nice ones, but there are some who never been out of their little town, who are stuck only with their own culture and disregard everything else. So, it is not hard to tell them something is bad and they will go believe in it. When the war in Iraq started, I remember how ppl in military were reacting, remember what my ppl thought of Americans going to Iraq. There were some military guys who were against the war, but that was their job, they were military, so, they would try to talk to their troops sayng that not all that government does or says is the right thing, do not get influensed by that. But there were ones who were all for the war, I even remember one of the guys was like, if not for this war, u would not have a job that is so well paid, can u believe it, yeah, i knew that i had a well paid job coz of the war, but it is wrong to thank the war for jobs or money it is bringing.
anyway, when the bombing in Iraq began, the whole office i was in (GIs) came in front of the TV and, man, they were happy seeing bombing, like it was fireworks, u know, most of the mililtary do not actually go to the war and fight, most of them stay at their desks and do their jobs, but they all were like, yeah, that's what they get for messing with us. U know, that was horrible how they were happy the war began.
When those videos started coming up online, about the ppl held in jails, tortured and raped by US troops all of the GIs of course were saying it was wrong to do so, but I know some of them, if they were in Iraq could have done the same.
They have rapes happen within military, so, what to talk about raping women from Iraq who they consider to be their enemies.
This is an endless topic, rapes by GIs happened in other countries where they are based without any wars, u should know that some of those guys came to military, coz that was the only thing they could do to have something in this life, I am not defending them, just trying to have ppl understand what kinda ppl are in military. NOT ALL, though.

[quote="kanelli"]Lionheart, coaltion military personnel do not target women and children. They target men who are involved in insurgent activities. Both insurgents and coalition forces have killed women and children because they happened to be in the line of fire.

You cannot say for sure that Muslim men wouldn't rape female coalition soldiers. It seems to me that there are Muslim men think that Western women are so loose and deserve s.e.xual abuse. Look at the group of Emirati men who kidnapped and raped the British flight attendant. In Finland there was a group of Somali guys who dragged a woman off and raped her in a park while her baby sat in its carriage. I can get propositioned in Dubai just by waiting for a taxi on the street after a doctor's appointment in the middle of the day! Being Muslim doesn't deter these men from engaging in horrific behaviour. How do you know there aren't some insurgents who want revenge for Iraqi women killed and abused? Do you suddenly speak for all insurgents and can you vouch for their character?

You know what, I can vouch for insurgents' lack of character. There is no honour in destabilising a country - it is bad enough that coalition forces went in in the first place. Who are the insurgents to say that everyday Iraqis who volunteer for a police force are "puppets" who deserve to be blown up? Many of the insurgents aren't Iraqi and they seem to have their own agenda. What makes them any different that coalition forces who aren't Iraqi and are pushing forward their own agenda? Let me guessLionheart.[/,bThe fact that you even justify insurgents' behaviour is a disgrace quote]



[qoute]Lionheart, coaltion military personnel do not target women and children. They target men who are involved in insurgent activities. Both insurgents and coalition forces have killed women and children because they happened to be in the line of fire.[/qoute]

Like said before American soliders have no feeling or connection to Iraqis, when they drop bombs over Bagdad they celebrate like they are playing video game, Iraqi lifes like the lifes of Vietcongs is not worth anything to American GI who has been programed to hate, kill, rape his enemy. American soliders feeling toward Iraqis is the same way Bin Laden gang feels toward Americans.

[qoute]You cannot say for sure that Muslim men wouldn't rape female coalition soldiers. It seems to me that there are Muslim men think that Western women are so loose and deserve s.e.xual abuse. Look at the group of Emirati men who kidnapped and raped the British flight attendant. In Finland there was a group of Somali guys who dragged a woman off and raped her in a park while her baby sat in its carriage. I can get propositioned in Dubai just by waiting for a taxi on the street after a doctor's appointment in the middle of the day! Being Muslim doesn't deter these men from engaging in horrific behaviour. How do you know there aren't some insurgents who want revenge for Iraqi women killed and abused? Do you suddenly speak for all insurgents and can you vouch for their character?[/qoute]


We went from talking about Iraqi insurgents conduct and Occuppiers conduct, to muslims around the world raping Western woman. What does horny spoiled Emirate raping Western Flight attender or horny Somali thugs raping Finnish girl have to do with Iraqi Insurgents who havent raped any of their female hostages, unlike American who raped the female Iraqi hostages they captured. Muslim man are human and are capable of rape, but in Iraqi and in Afghanisgtan there has not been a case were female hostage has been raped. For example the taliban who the west sees as the most abusive regime toward woman captured the English female journalist Ridley just a week before the bombing in Afghanistan started... The Taliban could have raped her beaten her like Americans, but they didn't anything to her...For a month or two she was their hostage... no Taliban or any other Afghan tried to rape her.


It was okey for Mujihadeens from Indonesia, Pakistan, Morroco, Algeria, Senegal, Ethiopia, Yemen, Saud Arabia, Syria, Etc to go to Afghanistan to fight against Russian occuppation in Afghanistan...But Today its not okey for Syrians, Jordanian and Saudis to fight alongside their tribal brothers in Western Iraq.

What makes the Jordanians, Syrians and Saudis fighting Iraq different from the coalition force is that the coalition force crossed a whole ocean to invade Iraq for its mineral riches and the protection of Isreal not Iraqis. The Jordanians/Syrians/Saudis most came to Iraq to aid their tribal brothers who have been invaded by foriegn enemies....but there are also some who came to Iraq for more sinister motivations.


Why do I justify or support the actions of the insurgent groups?

I don't justify all the action committed by the insurgents... example I'm against bombs near any populated..even if the target is police or the army.... I'm against the beheadings and kidnapping of foriegn journalist...even if they work for Fox or CNN...

I support the insurgents because they are fighting for a just cause...they are fighting against a foriegn enemies determined to install people they can controll and manupulate. I don't think the British/ American people would tolerate another country invading their land and install puppets who serve the interest of the invaders. I think just like the insurgents in Iraq the American and British people would fight to liberate their land... Of course the invaders would call them terrorists, thugs, etc..anything to discredit them in the eyes of their people and people around the world.

Further to my comments yesterday about the reporting of casualties in Palestine and Israel, today the BBC is reporting the details of a Palestinian mother that was killed in a shooting. The Israeli army has apologised for what it calls a mistake.

I hope that this trend will continue - taking care not to kill women and children. Cynics may say that in this case the killing was one they could hardly hide or conceal or justify - the irony is that more innocents are killed by artillery fire and we hardly see any apologies for innocents killed in these shellings.

The tragedy is that these killings just perpetuate the violence.

i never wished death for anyone, but i will say : MAY GOD HELL THEM ALL, AND BEFORE HELL I WISH THEM TO SUFFER 100 times more the pain they caused!
desgusting, simply horrible.
the shit thing is that most of people dont know all this, have not seen this pics, otherwise they will stop cheerleading for bush gov. and the so called "peace and eliberateing missions"!