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This is just another example of what the Great American Imperial Army is doing in the name of Liberating Iraq from the wretched Saddam Hussein and his Baath Party.

I hope you all know sarcasm!

Please note that this is not for the faint of heart. The photos can be quite graphic and ing. This is humiliation in its finest. May these Sons of Satan all burn in Hell.

SICK SICK SICK PSYCOPATHS... SCREW THE AMERICAN ARMY IN IRAQ.

The American government and British collaborationist regime shall suffer the worst revenge attacks and I hope it to be soon.....

This is shameful.

Please do not click on the news link if you are offended by such a thing. There are a couple of pictures that are pixelated in the right places but still it is gross.

Load the page without pictures if you can.

Here is the artical for those who want to read it without the offensive pictures though maybe looking at them if you can stomach it will change your mind about what you think is a "great service" being done by the Brits, Americams and their friends in the name of liberating Iraq and getting some oil...

Photos Show Rape of Iraqi Women
by US Occupation Forces
(Please Note: Many of the photographs showing the rape of Iraqi women and the sodomization of Iraqi POW's at the Abu Ghraib prison are now at USA pornographic websites pointing to the possibility of collusion between the depraved US soldiers in the pictures and US based Jewish pornographers. Many of these photographs were also freely disseminated to US occupation forces, perhaps to inflame their nefarious desires and to motivate them to strike out against the Iraqi populace in these perverse ways.)

by
Ernesto Cienfuegos
La Voz de Aztlan

Los Angeles, Alta California - May 2, 2004 - (ACN) The release, by CBS News, of the photographs showing the heinous sexual abuse and torture of Iraqi POW's at the notorious Abu Ghraib prison has opened a Pandora's box for the Bush regime. Apparently, the suspended US commander of the prison where the worst abuses took place, Brigadier General Janis Karpinski, has refused to take the fall by herself and has implicated the CIA, Military Intelligence and private US government contractors in the torturing of POW's and in the raping of Iraqi women detainees as well.

Brigadier General Janis Karpinski said to the Washington Post that Military Intelligence, rather than the Military Police, dictated the treatment of prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison. "The prison, and that particular cellblock where the events took place, were under the control of the Military Intelligence command," Brigadier General Karpinski said to the Washington Post Saturday night in a telephone interview from her home in Hilton Head, South Carolina.

Brigadier General Karpinski, who commanded the 800th Military Police Brigade, described a high-pressure Military Intelligence and CIA command that prized successful interrogations. A month before the alleged abuses and rapes occurred, she said, a team of CIA, Military Intelligence officers and private consultants under the employ of the US government came to Abu Ghraib. "Their main and specific mission was to give the interrogators new techniques to get more information from detainees," she said.

Today, new photographs were sent to La Voz de Aztlan from confidential sources depicting the shocking rapes of two Iraqi women by what are purported to be US Military Intelligence personnel and private US mercenaries in military fatigues. It is now known that hundreds of these photographs had been in circulation among the troops in Iraq. The graphic photos were being swapped between the soldiers like baseball cards.

Speaking on condition of anonymity, one Mexican-American soldier told La Voz de Aztlan, "Maybe the officers didn't know what was going on, but everybody else did. I have seen literally hundreds of these types of pictures." Many of the pictures were destroyed last September when the luggage of soldiers was searched as they left Iraq, he said

An investigation, led by Army Major General Antonio M. Taguba, identified two military intelligence officers and two civilian contractors for the Army as key figures in the abuse cases at the Abu Ghraib prison. In an internal report on his findings, Major General Taguba said he suspected that the four were "either directly or indirectly responsible for the abuses at Abu Ghraib and strongly recommended disciplinary action."

The Taguba report states that "military intelligence interrogators and other U.S. Government Agency interrogators actively requested that Military Police guards set physical and mental conditions for favorable interrogation of witnesses." The report noted that one civilian interrogator, a contractor from a company called CACI International and attached to the 205th Military Intelligence Brigade, "clearly knew his instructions" to the Military Police equated to physical and sexual abuse. It is not known whether these instructions included, or led to, the raping of Iraqi women detainees as well.

http://www.aztlan.net/iraqi_women_raped.htm

THIS IS THE MOST OUTRAGEOUS PHOTOS I HAVE SEEN MY ENTIRE LIFE!GOD fogive them for they do not know what they have done.

__________________________________

GOD FORGIVE US OUR SOULS AND PLACE THEM INTO HEAVEN!

So many terrible atrocities are committed in war. I don't find anything shocking from a group of people trained to de-humanise and murder their enemies. Soldiers are trained killers who are supposed to obey their superior officers - this is no different in any other army on this planet. I haven't heard of a war yet where a few military officers haven't gone off the deep-end and done some really horrible things.

This part of the web page was interesting...

(Please Note: Many of the photographs showing the rape of Iraqi women and the sodomization of Iraqi POW's at the Abu Ghraib prison are now at USA pornographic websites pointing to the possibility of collusion between the depraved US soldiers in the pictures and US based Jewish pornographers. Many of these photographs were also freely disseminated to US occupation forces, perhaps to inflame their nefarious desires and to motivate them to strike out against the Iraqi populace in these perverse ways.)

perhaps there are some of us here today who looks on war as if glory..it is HELL! we can only bear the warning voice to the next generation to come there is no such thing as an envitable war..WAR SYMBOLIZES the failure of human wisdom...because in war whichever side may call itself the VICTOR? there are no winners...

________________________________
GOD HAVE MERCY ON OUR SOULS

Exactly, war is terrible and it brings out the worst in people. All civility goes out the window and people do atrocious things to each other.

Some people shouldn't be so smug or attribute some bad behaviour to one military or nationality in particular. From what I understand, Saddam Hussein's army and police also sexually abused female prisoners, and Saddam and his son Uday used to have young Iraqi girls picked up off the street if they caught their attention, and brought back to the house to be raped.

Here are some personal stories from people close to Uday and Saddam:

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_kill ... in/10.html
http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_kill ... in/11.html

http://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/IraqCove ... id=1349603

Here is a fact sheet about treatment of women who displeased authorities in Saddam's Iraq.
http://www.state.gov/g/wi/rls/18877.htm

And the sad part is that the abuse in Abu Ghraib made the US position as stated in the fact sheet look so hypocritical. Here is a chronology of Bush's comments as the Abu Ghraib scandal unfolded.
http://www.slate.com/id/2100014/

So, anyone thinking that rape is just a US soldier "thing" should wipe the smug smile off his face, because the raping of women happens everywhere and is perpetrated by men for many different reasons.

Sorry, I don't have any outrageous and ing pictures of Iraqi women being raped by Iraqi police, or Saddam and Uday. I hope that you feel as much sympathy and outrage at their suffering as you do for the Iraqis assaulted in Abu Ghraib by a handful of American military officers.

Liban i would totally agree with you how ing and disgraceful those pictures are.

But i have to also agree with K. You must remember Liban the same thinng happen to many Kuwait women when Saddams troops invaded Kuwait.

Like K, i am not saying any of it is "right", its just that this sort of digusting behaviour it isn't exclusive to the American Army.

kanelli wrote:Here is a fact sheet about treatment of women who displeased authorities in Saddam's Iraq.
http://www.state.gov/g/wi/rls/18877.htm

The credibility of a US government site such as the one above can be simply described as ZERO CREDIBILITY. This is the same government that claimed Iraq had WMDs to hide... Not credible as a source.

What people forget is this:

The Americans claim to be doing "good" in Iraq and "saving" the Iraqi people.

Saddam's Baath never professed to doing that.

So do not compare to Baathic Iraq the situation with the Americans becuase at least Saddam admitted to signing execution papers and to torture. The American / British attackers claim to be on the side of good and the side of democracy...

Gang rapes, sodomy, bukkakke, etc... are not what I would call the actions of liberators....

Liban, its not fair to "tar" the whole Army because of the actions of a few perverted and sick individuals.

Not saying they are all like that, but what I am saying is that they should not pretend to be on the side of what is good and just when they have scum like the Baathic army they evicted in order to gain access to the oil....

The majority are though Liban. Try not to focus on the minority.

arniegang wrote:The majority are though Liban. Try not to focus on the minority.

The American Army is not on the side of good. Neither is the US government and its puppet in GB.... They are hypocritical and are agressors....

Iraq never launched any attack on the US or on GB... And yet look how the Iraqis are suffering while the US recruits hicks from Alabama and Tennessee to go fight its wars of aggression in the ME....

Yeah, hicks are real good...

Liban

Im with u bro. as a brit im ed by what is being done in Iraq. but plz dont associate brits with americans in that respect...yeah the GB army is guilty of abuse, but the difference between the US and GB is that most of our population arent inbred hill billies and most of us didnt want let alone agree with the war in the first place...let the blame rest on tony and his bunch of merry men (who as of today arent lookin too good).

Yuppie

Liban wrote:Not saying they are all like that, but what I am saying is that they should not pretend to be on the side of what is good and just when they have scum like the Baathic army they evicted in order to gain access to the oil....

And arnie and I told we don't disagree with this! Why do you still want to fight?

What is really shameful is that you have evidence of Iraqis being tortured and raped by Iraqis (NOT US propaganda - IRAQI eyewitness stories) yet you seem to think that it is okay if Saddam did it because at least he admitted it! What kind of logic is that?

By the way Liban, if you were in the army and had to interrogate prisoners, I am guessing that you would have no problem abusing prisoners to get info out of them (even if not raping, just beating and torturing). Even as a non-military person you are bloodthirsty for revenge attacks against the US and UK. I wouldn't put anything past you.

yuppie wrote:Liban

Im with u bro. as a brit im ed by what is being done in Iraq. but plz dont associate brits with americans in that respect...yeah the GB army is guilty of abuse, but the difference between the US and GB is that most of our population arent inbred hill billies and most of us didnt want let alone agree with the war in the first place...let the blame rest on tony and his bunch of merry men (who as of today arent lookin too good).

Yuppie

Sounds to me like you might be an inbred country-folk from the UK with that kind of stereotypical attitude.

You know why I am so pissed off? Because the doings of a handful of people in Abu Ghraib are being focused on when tens of thousands of Iraqis were being tortured, sexually abused, and murdered under the Saddam regime. Where were all you complainers when Saddam was abusing his own people? Do you think that anything done by Arab Muslims in their own lands is okay - because idealised unity between one race and one religion is more important to you than human rights?

It is a no-brainer that US soldiers should not be abusing prisoners - there is no argument about that and the hypocrisy of "saving" people only to abuse the ones you take prisoner. What is not fair in this whole argument is a) the lack of acknowledgement that all armies are guilty of abuse all over the world - because war is dirty and uncivil - people behave like vicious animals. b) the double-standard between crimes committed by leaders and their armies in their own lands and those committed by other leaders and their armies in foreign lands - aren't all cases of rape and abuse worth standing up and speaking out against? Some of you only speak up when it is the US or UK screwing up.

K,

We will always go full circle here. The likes of Liban Lionheart etc find it easier to use the "west" as their "sounding board" to vent off their hatred etc.

But they have always ignored and will ignore the ing acts committed by their own against their own.

Lets be frank here, its cool to bang off the west and look like you care about your own and "hate the aggressors".

The reality is they actually dont really give a monkeys.

The west "cares" and to that end we will always be the subject of this hatred. Yes we make mistakes, but in representing and caring for the silent majority rightly or wrongly, at least we can say we tried and the intentions were there. This is more than any muslim or arab would ever do for their own. History over the last 30 years shows in particular, the Arab world as a bunch of Ostrich's that stick their head in the sand at the first sign of conflict between themselves.

It is very humourous that when an accusation is made against a Middle Eastern country, it is written off as Western propaganda by some people here. Iraqis have given evidence about systematic rape and torture of women in Iraq under Saddam - it doesn't matter if the link I posted was a US government fact sheet. They got their information from Iraq women's groups, and other independent reports. Just because there were no WMDs found in Iraq, doesn't mean that rape and torture of women didn't happen in Iraq under Saddam. That is faulty logic.

I worked with Iraqi Kurds in 1990 and they told me of the abuse that the Baathist regime in Iraq (with Saddam Hussein at its head) were carrying out. Many people were crying out against the abuses then, including the likes of Amnesty International.

However, the Baath party was helped to power by the CIA and Saddam was a friend of the west.

Note that the greatest abuses took place in this time period, and with weapons etc suppled by the 'west'.

Kanelli rightly pointed out that the hypocrisy is evident - hypocrisy in liberating a people and then finding instances of abuses by the liberators.

Whilst I have some sympathy for the argument that these abuses aren't representative of the whole US army, I also note that anyone could conceivably think that by any stretch of the imagination these abuses are ok (Abu Graib - for example).

The British troops would not be so stupid - sure the abuses that have come to light are horific, but not as stupid and gross as the Abu Graib photos.

I've just had a look at the web site link Liban has given - and I'm surprised I haven't heard of this before, the article seems to have been written in 2004. It smacks of sensationalism and I wouldn't be surprised if these are staged photos for pornographic purposes (which in itself is sick, but not as heinous as if they depicted real incidents). Then again, perhaps I'm just hoping that people wouldn't stoop to these levels.

I have to take exception to Arnies general theme a couple of posts up that it is the 'west' that has the heart and cares. The people of the world tend to be the same when it comes to hatred of violence and killings - the west isn't any better or worse when it comes to compassion. In fact, people in developing countries are close to experiences of suffering, poverty etc.

The difference is that the developed countries have the ability to do something about suffering. The tragic thing is that on the whole, the 'West' that is being vilified is the same 'West' that is causing suffering by either supporting regimes that cause suffering, supplying the arms or actually directly causing the suffering (as in Iraq).

I've said this before, we shouldn't get defensive and into a bunker mentality that the rest of the world hates the West. It's not the 'west' - it's the US and to a lesser extent the UK - for what they are doing to the world. No one would say that Sweden or Switzerland isn't part of the 'West' - but they aren't hated, precisely because they aren't causing suffering of other people.

The US and UK should be condemned for causing the current pain and suffering in Iraq. Many British and American people warned that this would be the consequence of an invasion/war - and they have been proved right.

It's a dangerous game to try and justify any violence - and that comment is meant for everyone and no one in particular. Just think about it.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:I've said this before, we shouldn't get defensive and into a bunker mentality that the rest of the world hates the West. It's not the 'west' - it's the US and to a lesser extent the UK - for what they are doing to the world. No one would say that Sweden or Switzerland isn't part of the 'West' - but they aren't hated, precisely because they aren't causing suffering of other people.

Well said

Shaf i take exception that you take exception.

I still stand by my comment that (and i was generalizing) we do care. Our society in general cares very much about others irrespective of their race religion colour or creed.

This has been mentioned before, where was the help when Kuwait was invaded?.

Everyone can speculate all they like about oil blah blah, but that wasnt the only reason the Brits and americans stormed in.

I think everyone needs to remember also 1914-18 and 39-45. The majority of the rest of the world including the ME, owes a lot to the British for those years. It was because WE CARE as a nation we care.

Who is the first to put their hand in their pockects and take positive action to help others in distress ?

Shaf, you tell me over the last month how many times in Dubai you have been asked to contribute to a worthwhile cause?

I have spent the equivilent of 18 months in dubai and not once have i ever seen a collection for anything.

No, we dont always get it right, and politics do get in the way and sometimes there are underlying agendas. But to say "we dont care" is totally unwarranted IMHO.

Any cases of abuse are appalling and it is right that when it does occur each is investigated and the guilty punished - which is what has happened with very public trials.

However, the biggest tragedy in Iraq now is the daily slaughter of muslims by fellow muslim in the terrible pursuit of trying to make the country descend further into chaos and anarchy. I don't know how these evil people can justify this large-scale daily killing of innocents for their own ends.

Arnie - the British people do have compassion and do donate to good causes.

The victories in the two world wars weren't done out of compassion for other people - they were for national interests. It was only when Hitler invaded Poland with whom we had a treaty that we entered the war.

After the war was over, Winston Churchill and the rest of the west stood by while Stalin committed genocide - in fact history shows that they knew this would happen and made a calculated decision to allow it.

British troops similary committed acts of brutality and mass killing in India and Africa, and Australia. These are a bit further back in history, but not that long ago - in the times of our grandfathers.

Now, where I will agree with you is that Western governments have shown a greater will to intervene than Middle East, African etc governments. We shouldn't equate this with the compassion of the people of the countries - this is the point I was making and taking exception to.

The Mid East people weren't less interested in helping Kuwait than the British people...the Mid East governments/powers that be were/are too used to doing what their paymasters want them to.

I just think you can't equate actions of those in power with that of the people they govern. Would it be right to think of the average US and UK citizen (which includes me, btw) as a person who agrees with illegal invasions and killings of innocents/collateral damage? All those who marched against the war would suggest otherwise.

Similarly, the inaction of leaders who were put in place and kept in place by other nations do not necessarily reflect the will of the people they govern.

What needs to be borne in mind is the hypocrisy that is evident in international politics these days - Iran is a democracy with a popular leader, yet is being threatened. Kuwait is an autocracy where there is no political freedom, but complete subjugation to the will of the US and free rein to the US to station troops etc on its soil.

It is not the countries that abuse their citizens the most that get the most criticism from the US and UK - if it was, then there would be sabre rattling against Burma, Saudi, Zimbabwe etc etc.

Instead, Syria and Iran are painted as axis of evil, for daring to voice dissent against what the US is doing. Libya hasn't changed, in fact Libya is building a massive underground lab to make chemical weapons, but since Gaddafi found his sense and decided to become friends again with Washington - they are best of friends now. All it took was for him to pay damages for Lockerbie when all the evidence is actually that Iran was reponsible for Lockerbie as a retaliation for the Iranian jet (full of passengers) that was shot down by US fighter planes a few months before.

History shows that the man in the street (any street) will show compassion and contribute.

As you asked Arnie about had I been asked for contributions since being here.. well the first time was on the Emirates plane with envelopes for charity. The last time was two days ago at the City Centre shopping mall where people were collecting for some charity - I thought they were trying to sell things initially and only realised they were charity people after I had passed. There were people signing up - locals I might add.

Also, all the malls I have been in have deposit boxes with glass signs for charity - and these are invariably half full of notes.

Also today on the TV there was an ad for 'The Kuwait Fund' - which does global work for poverty..

Human nature is no different in the temperate zones than it is in the tropics or deserts.. humans are humans ... if you feather them they bleed, if you tickle them they laugh (apologies to Shakey).. if you wrong them they will seek revenge.

A message from a friend:

From what I understand, Saddam Hussein's army and police also[emphasis mine] fun abused female prisoners....

Is that suppose to be a trick question? In other words, both armies are ethically equal.

Here is a report from trusted source - Amnesty International.

Amnesty: Iraqi Women No Better Off Post-Saddam

LONDON -- Nearly two years after the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq, women there are no better off than under the rule of ousted dictator Saddam Hussein, the human rights group Amnesty International said on Tuesday.

In a report entitled "Iraq -- Decades of Suffering," it said that while the systematic repression under Saddam had ended, it had been replaced by increased murders, and sexual abuse -- including by U.S. forces.

Washington promised that the overthrow of Saddam would free the Iraqi people from years of oppression and set them on the road to democracy. But Amnesty said post-war insecurity had left women at risk of violence and curtailed their freedoms.

"The lawlessness and increased killings, abductions and rapes that followed the overthrow of the government of Saddam Hussein have restricted women's freedom of movement and their ability to go to school or to work," Amnesty said.

"Women have been subjected to sexual threats by members of the U.S.-led forces and some women detained by U.S. forces have been sexually abused, possibly raped," it added.

Amnesty said several women detained by U.S. troops had spoken in interviews with them of beatings, threats of rape, humiliating treatment and long periods of solitary confinement.

The Pentagon said it had not seen the report, but took any allegations of detainee abuse seriously.

"We have demonstrated our commitment to ensuring that kind of behavior is identified and dealt with properly," spokesman Lieutenant-Colonel Joe Richard said in Washington.

"With this report, we would like the opportunity to review it and to test the validity of the allegations."

Amnesty said women's rights activists and political leaders had also been targeted by armed insurgent groups.

Women continued to suffer legal discrimination under laws that granted husbands effective impunity to beat their wives and treated so-called "honor" killers leniently, the group said.

"Within their own communities, many women and girls remain at risk of death from male relatives if they are accused of behavior held to have brought dishonor on the family," Amnesty said, noting some attempts by religious zealots to make the laws even more repressive against women.

But on the positive side, the report said several women's rights groups had been formed -- including ones that focused on the protection of women from violence.

Amnesty called on the Iraqi authorities and newly elected members of the National Assembly to enshrine the rights of women in the new constitution.

This included treating honor killings as murder, outlawing violence within marriage and making sure that the punishment was commensurate with the crime committed.

Source: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0222-08.htm

Whilst we can all express our particulare viewpoints and interpretations of events, let us not forget that we all are revulsed at the killing and humiliation of human beings.

Rape is a crime and a heinous one at that.

I hope that we can agree on that and condemn all injustice and amically discuss any differences in opinion we have with this notion in mind.

The problems with forums is that the written word is not always a good medium to convey one's actual sentiments or intentions, and sometimes the words are given sentiments or emotions that aren't intended by the author.

I felt at ease in pushing back at arnie in the posts above, knowing that I have built up a rapport and that he would know I am not being malicious or vindictive. There is an element of being provokative and playing Devil's advocate as well in the posts - I just thought I'd clarify that for others in case the impression that arnie and I disagree about the big issues - we don't. We just happen to be discussing peripheral opinions on the state of nations' - and at the end of the day, they are just that - opinions and interpretations.

Anyway you cant disagree with me too much Shaf.

I have your ipod battery dont forget

As I have said before, atrocities have happened from BOTH sides in any WAR and it is always unacceptable, but all this is absolutely nothing new! The only reason we find out about it, is that people are dumb enough to take digital photos and videos and then take them out of these places. What you think before this technology brutalities like this weren't taking place? It's alwasy happened, just now it's easy to document - but it doesn't make it right either way.

Female officers from allied forces have been raped and tortured as well, but nobody harps on about that or brings that to light. As with anything, it's the sad actions of a few morons who managed to get into the armed forces in the first place that bring the credibility down of the rest of the troops. The majority act with the utmost prefessionalism.

Female officers from allied forces have been raped and tortured as well, but nobody harps on about that or brings that to light.

Sad... very sad...

Arnie - as long as you have the battery hostage, of course I agree with you!

Choco - I hadn't heard about females from the UK and US being raped and tortured in Iraq.. so you are right about no one 'harping' on about this. Was I mistaken in believing that there weren't any such abuses commited?

The one incident that did make it to the media was that of the female US private that was 'liberated' from a hospital, despite the fact that the doctors had told the US army where she was and that there were no guards imprisoning her. She was treated well she says.

I'd also like to put the record straight as to my view of the British army - I have 2 uncles that served in WW2 and my dad was a reservist (TA). I have great respect for the army and their professionalism.. they do a lot of peacekeing aroundthe world and keep us Brits safe.

I disagree with some political decisions and I am proud that I have the freedom to express these views.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Choco - I hadn't heard about females from the UK and US being raped and tortured in Iraq.. so you are right about no one 'harping' on about this. Was I mistaken in believing that there weren't any such abuses commited?

I not sure if she meant these, but following page has some stories http://www.aztlan.net/latinas_us_military_raped.htm