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Sorry Lionheart, but Islam was created long after Adam, there are religions far older - even if he ever existed. Plus I disagree with what you said. If there are people bringing the name of something into disrepute then they should be taken to task over it and shown the error of their ways.

I think that many of you have crapped on this thread when Liban just wanted to tell about something that moved him in mosque the other day. Maybe some of you are biased because you don't think it is such a big deal, but to people who are religious it is a big deal. Maybe Liban does want to talk about religion a lot in order to try to get people interested in Islam, or maybe he thinks that outward expressions of his religion make him a better Muslim. Who cares! What he said wasn't controversial, it was just a story about something nice happening at mosque.

kanelli wrote:I think that many of you have crapped on this thread when Liban just wanted to tell about something that moved him in mosque the other day. Maybe some of you are biased because you don't think it is such a big deal, but to people who are religious it is a big deal. Maybe Liban does want to talk about religion a lot in order to try to get people interested in Islam, or maybe he thinks that outward expressions of his religion make him a better Muslim. Who cares! What he said wasn't controversial, it was just a story about something nice happening at mosque.

Brings me back to one of my posts on page two...

Liban Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 10:44 am Post subject:

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Why is a post about the beauty of some people accepting God into their hearts twisted into a discussion on bad seeds in Islam?

Why is anything nice thing about Islam always twisted into something dismissive or unrelated to the subject?

These truely are sad times for mankind.

I speak of Islam because I beleive in God's teachings, I love God and the information in the Quran, I truely want to share in my beleifs with others interested in learning (not converting per sae just learning), and I hope that explaining Islam through beautiful events like this ones will touch people like it does to me....

Why this turns into a pissing match, I have no clue...

I have no problem with that Liban. And you are welcome by the way.

Ok so it was a nice thing. But sometimes it does go into over kill.

Chocoholic wrote:Ok so it was a nice thing. But sometimes it does go into over kill.

Your posts sure do...

K

Sorry but i am gonna have to disagree with you.

I can olny speak for myself, but i was merely saying i cannot comprehend the emotions regarding acceptance within Islam. It was not my intention to flame. I do not believe it was Choc's intention to flame either.

If we are too learn from these forums, then when i post as such i would hope it would further engage the topic into a "learning debate".

If you read back, i believe our original comments have been taken out of context. There are, if you notice some rather cutting and bordering on scacasic and belittling comments in the replies received.

This concept is no different to the example in the other gay thread where they cannot understand how we view gays etc. Certainly and similar, Chocs and i cannot grasp the concept of Libans post.

I too do not understand why all the fuss ,,,
as to subject of Jews and Arabs, Muslims, and issues of semitism and "anti-semitism"

Muslims and arabs should be able to exercise freedom to speak on issues of Arab and muslim affairs...

If there are people who like the lifestyle of living in arab or middle east countries , but do not like comments or other social issues.. theres always the alternative of

trying to relocate in occupied Palestinian lands known now as Isreal..
lifestyle is similiar if one does not like muslims or arab or the affairs that touches their hearts and emotions..

Intimacy wrote:

sniper420 wrote:good that they are converting but are they really practixcing in their hearts

With All respect mate.. this is something no one has to ask about.. and if there is something which should be learned to those new muslims (about how to practice .. etc).. then it shouldnt be this way .. the relation between the person and his God is a secret, private, and sacred channel that no one could ever judge

100% agree man,

Liban wrote:

MaaaD wrote:What islam needs is not more quantity but more quality

Are you God?

No... So don't speak ill of Islam.

Islam is not a thing which is reliant on quality or quantity. Rather it is God's Message to his servants (humans). Muslims, just like all humans, have faults. Do not link such faults to the religion.

Maad I dunno if you are a copt or a Muslim, but anyone from Egypt should know what I just said and shouldn't spew complete and utter b/s.

No i am not God, i dont think so. I wasnt speaking ill of islam i was just saying that Islam the religion needs more people who are touched by the religion in every aspect of there life. Which will give a better reflection of the religion to the world. (hence the quality) rather than millions or billions of people who pray 5 times a day but then cheat, lie, backstab, and kill.

I am not Egyptian i am not sure where you got that from. And i wasnt spewing BS i was saying something which i think any Muslim (and even lnon-Muslim) would agree with me on !!! you just took it out of context and twisted what i was trying to say.

Intimacy wrote:

MaaaD wrote:What islam needs is not more quantity but more quality

Well, if i would take this with good intentions and i will.. then what you said is just true.. That Applies for anything in this universe.. right?

But even in science ( im not going to go thru the spiritual approch now) in order to quantify quality you need quantity.. in islam.. a new human means a new qualiy.. or at least thats how it is origianlly..

At the sametime the people who are not qualified to be A quality.. then..they could be developed to be up to the level. the main focus should be on the human him/her self..

Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt Intimacy something that your bro liban didnt even take the time to do. I Agree with all what you said and the fact the people should focus on themselves rather than others. There is too many muslims today who are too busy trying to get others to follow the "right path" and not concentrating on self-improvement. If you want to affect someone you have to do it subtly by being an example rather than directly preaching.

I have done quite a bit of 'preaching' in my time and people have converted to Islam as a result. I have also discussed religion with other religious people and been to their meetings etc.

I lived with Christian missionaries in Africa - and even joined in the bible readings in the mornings etc, and this was not contravening Islam in any way. (It was a strange turn of events that led to this situation, but everyone was cool about this)

Anyway, I'd like to make a few points based on the above:

1. The reactions Liban described in his first post are in no way unique to conversions to Islam. Therefore people's views that they find grown men getting so emotional at people accepting views they hold dearly that they cry, is actually an expression of incredulity that people could hold views so dearly to elicit such a reaction.

Evangelical Christians, Jehova's witnesses, alcoholic's anonymous, Hari Krishna members etc etc will have the same reaction when someone is babtised or joins their group.

If anything, the reactions Liban described are much more subdued than some of these other gatherings. You can imagine the allelujas in some churches!

It is actually just a function of sincerely held views and isn't strange once you see one. I've had the privilege of seeing this in different groups.

People get emotional watching movies or at poetry recitals... same human emotions were at play here. What I think Choco and Arnie are saying is that they find it strange that people would have such emotional reactions to the action of someone deciding to join the 'club' of their religion.

Fair enough - I don't get people's obsessions with sport and crying at the fact that some 11 guys lost a game half way around the world... I guess I find that strange too

2. Maad made a good point about preaching - it should be by example and not just words.

I totally agree - those that decided to make Islam the code by which they lead their lives are basically choosing to live their lives according to a set of rules in a book and choosing to turn their attention to God formally 5 times a day, informally throughout the day in every activity, view others as God's creations, give to the poor, feed the hungry and to strive to achieve communion with their Maker.

This decision cannot be reached by force of argument alone - it takes a change of heart. There are many intellectuals out there that know the right thing to do, but choose not to do this when it goes against their self interest. It takes a change of heart to literally surrender one's ego and to obey the rules which God has laid down.... (these rules are all totally in line with logic and reasoning, otherwise there would be internal conflict and not peace).

Islam literally means 'submission to the Will of God' - and the goal of this is to find internal peace.

This submission is in deed as well as will (intention). Therefore the people that I have seen join Islam have done so because they see the way Muslims live their lives, are at peace with themselves and their surroundings and decide that they want to follow the same rules to the same end. No one's heart is moved by rhetorical and theological debate - there is always a counter-argument, albeit an illogical one sometimes. It is harder to fake being at peace with oneself and others, and make others also experience this peace by following these rules.

To people who practice this way of life and then see others come round to the same conclusion that Islam is the way they wish to live their lives is very emotional. To me, at least, what Liban described is heart warming and cause for praise to God.

May you all find what you are seeking.

Wasalaam,
Shafique

Thank you Shaf for taking the trouble and time to explain to all of us your thoughts and reasoning.

I think on that note, and Liban i hope you agree its time to lock this most interesting thread. It started with an interesting post and finished also with an interesting post.

Liban if you disagree i have no issue to you deciding to unlock and continue. If you do please delete my post.


Cheers

I agree with the lock.

The point has been made.