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We think of planet Earth as very large. Consider the distances: New York to Dubai on a 747 takes 12 hours travelling at speeds of 400 to 500 miles/hour. That's far.

Earth is a planet, and only a medium sized one, circling around a medium sized star that we call the sun, that constitutes the Solar System.

The Solar System is part of what is called the Milky Way Galaxy. This Galaxy contains 300 billion stars! A more or less accurate estimation of the number. This number is about the same as the number of the grains of sand in all the oceans on Earth!! The diameter of the Earth is about 13000 kilometers, and that of the Sun (which is a star) 1.4 million Kilometers. So our sun, which is an ordinary medium sized star, is HUGE.

The no. of galaxies in the observable Universe are also about 300 billion!!!

Makes you wonder about man's significance on a grain of sand!

The nearest Galaxy to our Milky Way Galaxy is the Andromeda Galaxy. This is at a distance of about 3 million Light Years. A light Year, as we all know, is the distance light travels in one year; so if we start travelling at the speed of light it will take us 3 million years to get to good old Andromeda.

Now here is the clincher. The Milky Way and Andromeda galaxies are are heading for a head-on collision! They are approaching each other at about 6000000 miles an hour, and at that slow speed it will take them 4 billion years to collide. And what will happen when they collide?? Apparently no great fireworks, just a mingling of the stars, a few unremarkable collisions, and a change in the configuration of our own Solar System. Thats all

http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/sc ... andromeda/

yes, the possibility of intelligent life out there is far more possible than what religion orders us to believe.

to get an idea of how big or how small the universe is follow this link , its very intersting

http://htwins.net/scale2/

Interesting link, Bossman.
The Abrahamic religions (Judeo-Christianity and Islam) are nothing but a rehash of what the Greek thinkers were saying, in particular Plato and Aristotle (and Socrates), with the addition of a deity like the Son of God Jesus, or Allah. So study the originals, and you will feel more enlightened. In particular Plato.

I dont like any religion, which all sound like fairy tales to me, although they may have had their utility.

Spirituality is different. I vacillate between a belief in some Power that created all this immense complexity, and the theory of "Something from Nothing", depending on my mood .

I came across a rather interesting theory by a Swedish Philosopher/Physicist Nick Bostrom, working in Oxford England. It is called the Simulation Hypothesis which basically says that all the signs point to our Universe being more or less a computer simulation by a far advanced human civilization that is trying to recreate its own past!

Highly interesting and plausible, and considering the wanton destruction and mindless cruelty that goes on all around us, I can well beleive that God and Devil are rolled into one, i.e a Human Simulator playing a computer game.

Peace!

I personally think all those numbers about how many galaxies and how.big the universe is as rubbish. The universe is infinite. It goes on forever. We can't come up to any sort of "dead-end" or wall. So.anything could be out there- in the INSANELY vast expanse, certainly we aren't the only ones alive? The thing I fear is that if we do meet extraterrestrials, how would they react. Assuming they speak no English, they could classify us as a threat. Who knows how advanced their weapons systems are! I may seem like I'm speaking rubbish out of a sci-fi novel, but I think I have a point!

prowheels , they would have no need for us. they would have far superior technology that are probably millions of years ahead. we would be like ants to them. especially if they have the ability to travel several light years when ever they please. also if you notice people that are intelligent become less aggressive , i dont recall einstien picking a fight in a bar and being tossed out.

but who knows really until we find one alien hiding somewere

--- Feb 15, 2013 ---

FF2 ,

i was born muslim , but lost my beliefs after living in a muslim countries. after researching and studing several books i realized that Deism is for me.

Atheism is also possible , but they cant explain the complexity of the universe without pointing to evolution. who had set the rules of the universe for evolution to occur? thats why many physists are deists, or have other belief as you stated as the simulation program which is also plausible

islam is a copy of judaism and christianity, it emeged from an area which was a melting pot of all the religions. so it has a bit of everything. lot of the info in qoran are also from greeks , such as embrology, astrology etc. in qoran it states that the earth was like a spread out carpet. not round. so it picked up a few mistakes from other religions too.

even thou aristotle found out about 300bc that the earth was round , that became obsolete when religion came in the picture. sad ....

Well, if aliens stumbled upon Earth, they would have some reinforcements, like an army. So there is always a possibilty for a aggresion.

prowheels , not required for army , all they do is give a few people power/technology , and watch us destroy/enslave ourselves. also if you think about it , we just learned how to make a hydrogen bomb which can level a large city. and thats only about 150 years after the industrial revolution. how about a speices that is a million years ahead? what type of weapons will they have in their arsenal? do they realy need an army?

if i were an alien , to clear the earth of humans , i just create a virus simply by merging whats exisitng right now make it more virulent. a great combo would be something like hep c , hiv and comon cold or birflu and cancer forming hpv strains.

prowheels wrote:I personally think

Pro, unfortunately the science involved is so complex that we have to pay attention to what the scientists are telling us. These are people who have lots of brains and have been working hard collecting the evidence and have dedicated their lives to it. There is no room for what we personally think. Anyways, you'll find that "truth is stranger than fiction".

bossman wrote: they would have no need for us. they would have far superior technology that are probably millions of years ahead. we would be like ants to them.

And that is right! Imagine what we can do with the technology of just over a 100 years! Then imagine (if you can) what we could do with the technology of say a million years. And that is where the Simulation Hypothesis comes in. A human civilization a million years ahead would have the capacity to simulate a Universe!

As for extra-terrestrials visiting us with huge armies, forget it! In the 4.5 billion history since this planet was formed, there is not one iota of real scientific evidence that the earth has ever been visited by beings from another world. The idea is very fanciful and enchanting, but if it has never happened, it never will! Just consider the distances involved: the Andromeda galaxy is 2.5 million light years away! Someone travelling at the speed of light would take 2.5 million years to get here! And according to Einstein, it is just not possible to reach those speeds because the mass of the object becomes infinite!!

bossman , True, but if I were an alien- my objective wouldn't be to annihilate the human race, but to observe them. How they live, social habits, cultures, just things in general. Obviously I'd have some weapons, in case anything gets nasty.

This is really a weird discussion because we actually have zero evidence of any sort of alien life other than the Roswell incident!

--- Feb 15, 2013 ---

FF2 , There is a first for everything FF! If they are so technologically advanced, surely they can create something to travel that fast. We can't just assume we won't get any visitors from the universe because our technology isn't as advanced as we think!
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hyperdrive

bossman wrote: in qoran it states that the earth was like a spread out carpet.

That's not what it says actually. There are cpl of places where the Earth has described as spread out and if you read before and after verses it will give some idea what they are talking about. Not same word has been used in every place and I don't have time to go into detail, but Nouman Ali Khan's lectures are good who focuses on lingusitic side of the Quran.

For verse 71:19 word used is "al-arda bisatan" see http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 733AALHiOJ

For verse 79:30 word is "dahaha" http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 014AAr9r9u

Both words have similarities and differences. Literally both means spread out and in the context they are talking about made something suited or hospitible to live if you read the before and after verses. But there are subtle differences in the imagery. First one has an imagery of a carpet; people put carpet on the ground because it brings ease and comfort. Similar idea is here but it is God who has done it so, and it can be interpretated in serveral ways scientific and poetic, but in the end idea is same that it has been made easy to live on.

Second, word relates to ostrich and its egg. It can be interpreted as egg shaped or something like that but imagery is similar, mother ostrich prepares the place/ground for her eggs.

As a brother explained the imagery which has a wider meaning:

"The Quran is employing imagery OF A TENT in this verse. The earth is described as being spread out like a carpet, i.e. made comfortable for living. Entering into a beduoin tent, one would come across beautiful carpets that covered the ground and made sitting comfortable. The heavens being 'raised above the earth' is another imagery employed, i.e. the heavens are the roof of the tent that provide shade from the harsh environment. The Quran in other verses, also speak about the mountains as pegs providing stability to the Earth. The mountains are also playing off the imagery of the pegs of a tent which stabilize the foundation of the tent. The Holy Book is playing off the psychology of the Arabs and their concept of chivalry. Welcoming guests and providing them comfort as well as a place of rest for their journey was something looked highly upon. The tent he is currently staying in, God is the owner of it and God is the best at being chivalrous. Men have been provided, and are being provided with what the best the earth has to offer. God has spread out the carpets for men to rest, and has provided them with delicious fruits to eat. God has provided them shelter from the harsh sun, as well as given them a comfortable place to sleep and regain their energy.

This imagery takes us conceptually to the concept of temporariness of the world. Man is on a journey in this life. Just as a tent is one day folded up and men leave their temporary home, the heavens and earth will be folded up and man will proceed on the next journey of their life. The Quran often speaks about the heavens and earth folding up as well.

One of the interesting aspects of these type of verses, as Neal Robinson points out, is the sound of the recitation. The building of this tent sounds like the banging of a hammer when reciting it.

FF2 wrote:The Abrahamic religions (Judeo-Christianity and Islam) are nothing but a rehash of what the Greek thinkers were saying, in particular Plato and Aristotle (and Socrates), with the addition of a deity like the Son of God Jesus, or Allah. So study the originals, and you will feel more enlightened. In particular Plato.

I also think the Greek philosophers are more interesting to read than most religious books.
I dont like any religion, which all sound like fairy tales to me, although they may have had their utility.

FF2 wrote: I can well beleive that God and Devil are rolled into one

That is a very compelling idea. Good and evil being different sides of the same coin.

--- Feb 15, 2013 ---

prowheels wrote:The universe is infinite.

The infinity of the universe is hard to explain with a scientific approach.

Nucleus , why would god want insignificant creatures like us to pray to it 5 times a day?

why would god punish his own creations? why would he not create them without any flaw so he doesnt have to punish them?

if god wanted to be reffered to allah and the religion islam , why did he not pass that message to moses or christ , why till the end until the last prophet?

why didnt god state some incredible evidence in any of the books such as the round shape of the earth ? that the sun was the center of our solar system , any things that has not been yet discovered by the greek or romans?

why would a man that changes his religion from islam to another receive the death penalty?

so many questions , maybe need to start a new thread.

bossman wrote:so many questions , maybe need to start a new thread.

I don't have time to get into a discussion, so maybe post it on an Islamic forum. Understanding Islam has some good knowledgeable muslims http://forums.understanding-islam.com/ Islamicboard has some good ones too http://www.islamicboard.com/

bossman wrote:why would god want insignificant creatures like us to pray to it 5 times a day?

God can ask anything. But "salat" is called a gift, details I don't have time to get into. Post it on UI somebody can give comprehensive answer.

bossman wrote:why would god punish his own creations? why would he not create them without any flaw so he doesnt have to punish them?

There are no flaws in humans, in Quran God says He has shown both ways right and wrong, choice is up to the people.

bossman wrote:if god wanted to be reffered to allah and the religion islam , why did he not pass that message to moses or christ , why till the end until the last prophet?

If you read the Quran name is not that important, different places and time may have different names depending on the language. Although in Aramaic sound is almost same. Watch the movie made on Jesus (pbuh) where is calling the name of God in Aramaic. As for the nature of God and name(s) in Islam read, it will give better idea philosophy-dubai/god-were-one-t5633.html

bossman wrote:why didnt god state some incredible evidence in any of the books such as the round shape of the earth ? that the sun was the center of our solar system , any things that has not been yet discovered by the greek or romans?

And that would use intellect? For me studying the Quran helped, I started to see the fine details and it became much clearer.

bossman wrote:why would a man that changes his religion from islam to another receive the death penalty?

There is no such penalty in primary source of Islam. That is an issue of fiqh and different scholars have different opinion on this.

This my last reply. I can't get into discussion I don't have time. I run cpl of businesses. But UI has some good posters you can start a discussion there. And "Even Angles Ask" and "Destiny of Man" are two good books on the type of questions you posted. Worth reading if you interested in these topics.

FlyingDutchman wrote:I also think the Greek philosophers are more interesting to read than most religious books.

In particular, Plato was the quintessential thinker of all time! It has been said that all human thinking since Plato till today, has been just a series of footnotes to what Plato taught. His "Theory of Forms" is the basis of the soul, the Hereafter and Paradise in all the monotheistic religions; but while he based it all on meticulously argued discussions and reason, religions took off into fantasy with a god and a bunch of angels in attendance! Another fascinating story is his Allegory of the Cave-dwellers. You can read it all on the internet.

FlyingDutchman wrote:That is a very compelling idea. Good and evil being different sides of the same coin.

I am a proponent of Nick Bostroms idea and the Simulation Hypothesis. The more I think about it, the more I get convinced that there would be something like it running this show. I am a little scared though, if the Simulators learn what I know about them, they might switch my button off, and "Game Over!"

As for the infinity question, I think at the very cutting edge frontiers of science, it is hard to distinguish between Science, Philosophy, and Mathematics. At that level, its all mind games.

bossman wrote:Nucleus , why would god want insignificant creatures like us to pray to it 5 times a day?

Bossman, all your questions to Nucleus are very pertinent. Now you've made him run away with some excuse about his business activities. Should he stay and defend his Allah, or run to his business?

Prowheels, if you buy into Bostrom's Simulation Hypothesis, then there are never going to be any aliens visiting our planet, because they simply dont exist! The Universe has only been created for you to observe. Only things and people near to you are real in the sense that you can touch and feel them. But things at a distance, like the distant galaxies are just pixels; you will never get to them; there is nothing there!!

FF2 wrote:Bossman, all your questions to Nucleus are very pertinent. Now you've made him run away with some excuse about his business activities. Should he stay and defend his Allah, or run to his business?

he seems to give us the run around instead of answering directly. most muslims do that , they either try to justify the phrases in quran in someway or the other , or they point at some long bearded scholar to get answers, those answers soon will end up having nothing to do with the actual phrase.

the best defence that they can come up with is that each arabic word has so many meanings. yea, thats why its NOT a good idea to write any book in arabic. imagine if i were to write a medical book in arabic , yeah just take out the heart, oh wait heart can also mean spleen , or tonsils , testiscles. whata great book that would be.

Allah doesn't need defending, look at the universe does the creator of that needs any defending?

I'm sure I've many short comings but those were pretty pretty straight answers. "Bisatan" doesn't mean carpet. It means laid out or spread out. It can be used metaphorically, and the way it is used in Quran as imagery is brilliant. In verse 79:30 word "dahaha" is used which does come from ostrich's egg. "Daha" means ostrich's egg. But in the context, again, it is talking about something laid out or spread out. Classical arabic is in-depth and words are rich in meaning but it is not difficult to understand.

Mustansir Mir has good article for anyone who is interested in the topic: http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/ ... liter.html

--- Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:13 pm ---

And these a basic Islam 101 questions, I recommend taking Islam 101 from reputable university.

Nucleus wrote:Classical arabic is in-depth and words are rich in meaning but it is not difficult to understand.

I agree, classical Arabic is very rich (and a beautiful language). I respectfully diagree though that classical Arabic is not difficult to understand. Trying to understand what is meant by the words of the Quran requires years of study of the language of the Beduin, as it is assumed Arabic spoken by nowadays Beduin is closest to Quranic Arabic (which is different than Modern Standard Arabic). In order to try to understand the Quran, you also need to study the Arabic of the Beduin of the 7th century, which is difficult, as it was not written down a lot, so have you to base your studies on mouth to mouth poetry. Words and sentences in the Quran can have different meanings and have changed throughout the centuries (ironcally with the Dome of the Rock as proof). Which brings me to one of the most compelling argument that the Quran, the Bible or whatever scripture is man made. If god wanted to make something clear, he did a lousy job in the Quran, which is open to so many interpretations.

Trying to understand what is meant by the words of the Quran requires years of study of the language of the Beduin

Well, we're going off topic so I'll contribute. I remember a Western Arabic scholar saying, let's say, 1/3 of the Koran was honestly incomprehensible to him.

Another scholar who believes certain Arabic words make more sense in Syriac said the same - and the Koran verses he translates to Syriac certainly make more sense in Syriac than Arabic!

I can't read Arabic but I wonder how much of the Koran actually makes sense to Arabic readers.

Unfortunately, the English translations are a semi-comprehensible stream of consciousness and verses require multiple readings to understand (for me).

How much is lost in translation or is the Arabic often as confusing and contorted as the English?

rayznack wrote:How much is lost in translation or is the Arabic often as confusing and contorted as the English?

As in Hebrew, in Arabic most vowels are not written (which means the same string of letters can result in different words). Next to that, Arabic is a much richer language than English, which also has its downside, namely one word can have multiple meanings (you can also see how Nucleus is struggling with this, next to interpretating texts literal or non-literal). On top of that nobody, and I mean nobody speaks the Arabic of the Quran anymore since birth, it is nobody's mother tongue. Beduin Arabic is supposed to come closest (but real Beduin almost are extinct). As a comparison to another semitic language Hebrew, speakers of modern Hebrew need to focus hard to get their head around the meaning of Biblical Hebrew to get a sense of meaning out of it, and modern Hebrew is closer to Biblical Hebrew than Modern Arabic is to Quranic Arabic. I have heard the comparison made by Arabic scolars that MSA is to classical Arabic, as French or Spanish is to Latin...

I believe this is what you're referring to:

Arabic is a 'defective' script: only consonants can be written with it, vowels are omitted. Furthermore, when the Qur'an was codified a script was used in which several consonants shared the same signs. Only 17 signs were used to write 28 consonants. Just 7 signs in this alphabet, called rasm, are unequivocal. About a century after the first compilation of the Qur'an the various consonants were distinguished by adding 'diacritical dots'. From that moment on the five consonants for example that were written with a 'hook' ﺒ b, ﺘ t, ﺜ th, ﻨ n en ﻴ y could be distinguished. Eventually, three centuries later, after some experimenting with systems for the notation of vowels, the vowels were also added.

It's no wonder there were 7-12 different Korans until the standardisation in 1923.

And that was after the Uthmani codification!

philosophy-dubai/which-koran-was-the-one-first-written-t51269.html

Nucleus wrote:Allah doesn't need defending, look at the universe does the creator of that needs any defending?

Then why do people get all defensive about Allah and his favourite religion, that we all know is Islam?
Why is apostasy (ie for a Muslim to declare himself a non-Muslim) punishable by death, according to the majority of Muslim Scholars?
Allah doesn't need defending, and yet look at all the killing going on in his name!
You are right about the massiveness of the Universe and man's delusion in thinking that there is a creator of all this out there watching his every move and it matters to that creator what he says, or does, or believes.
By the standards of the known Universe, our sun is smaller than a grain of sand on the beach! The Earth is 10 times smaller than that. Just think of the significance of that!
Lets enjoy the 2 seconds or even less of "LIFE" in all this, before we fade away, and with it our "conciousness" and everything else that we think is out there.........

--- Feb 16, 2013 ---

FF2 , John 20:29- Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

prowheels ,I think you must have missed what I said about ALL religions: they are fairy tales. There is actually no proof that such a man as Jesus Christ ever existed. No contemporary has come forward to say that there ever lived someone like him. The Gospels are just a collection of hearsay, and their authors are at best of dubious origin, and way after the date when Christ was supposed to have been killed. Read this : http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm

You missed the entire point of that passage bro. If Jesus just came down one day and said "Yes I do exist." Then bviously most athiests or people from other religions will convert to Christianity. Now, due to the fact that there is little evidence, Jesus wants to know who the true believers are. BTW you can't deny the fact that everything in this universe was created by a higher form of intelligence. I don't buy into the Big Bang bulls**t Theory!

prowheels wrote: I don't buy into the Big Bang bulls**t Theory!

Then I suppose you must be working on a Theory of your own!
Btw, did you read that link? It's very interesting. The story of Jesus Christ almost exactly parallels the story of Hercules in Greek mythology! The only difference is that the Greeks knew their story (of Hercules) was just myth; not so the beleivers of Jesus Christ

FF2 , I read about 1000 words or so, just the same atheist stuff. Nostradamus predicted the world would end in 3797 and he also predicted the assasination of JFK. Now was that a myth as well?

prowheels , nostramus words are just mumbo jumbo that people justify it somehow to make sense. all his sentences could mean anything really.

big bang theory exists because scientistic deduced it from experiements/equations and logic. unless we build a time machine and go all the way back to the past , this will always remain a theory. there are also other theory such as the collision of multiverses that causes the creation of new universes and others , all have complex mathematical equations and logic behind them.

Religion states how its created without any proof , mathematical equations or even an atempt to deduce a theory by straight foward logic.

i cant believe people can be so gulible to believe everything they read. pick up the book , be it the bible or thorah/quran and READ it. really READ it and try to understand it. you will turn into an atheist or diest by end of the first chapter.

prowheels , I am sorry, but Nostradamus is just a sham! There are a lot of very creditable and credible sources out there that have debunked him as a fraud. Well, not himself, but those who have tried to project him as a sort of great seer.

Now here is a bit of "cut and paste" from the conclusion of the Link I have given you, which is enlightening:

"CONCLUSION

Belief cannot produce historical fact, and claims that come from nothing but hearsay do not amount to an honest attempt to get at the facts. Even with eyewitness accounts we must tread carefully. Simply because someone makes a claim, does not mean it represents reality. For example, consider some of the bogus claims that supposedly come from many eyewitness accounts of alien extraterrestrials and their space craft. They not only assert eyewitnesses but present blurry photos to boot! If we can question these accounts, then why should we not question claims that come from hearsay even more? Moreover, consider that the hearsay comes from ancient and unknown people that no longer live.

Unfortunately, belief and faith substitute as knowledge in many people's minds and nothing, even direct evidence thrust on the feet of their claims, could possibly change their minds. We have many stories, myths and beliefs of a Jesus but if we wish to establish the facts of history, we cannot even begin to put together a knowledgeable account without at least a few reliable eyewitness accounts.

Of course a historical Jesus may have existed, perhaps based loosely on a living human even though his actual history got lost, but this amounts to nothing but speculation. However we do have an abundance of evidence supporting the mythical evolution of Jesus. Virtually every detail in the gospel stories occurred in pagan and/or Hebrew stories, long before the advent of Christianity. We simply do not have a shred of evidence to determine the historicity of a Jesus "the Christ." We only have evidence for the belief of Jesus.

So if you hear anyone who claims to have evidence for a witness of a historical Jesus, simply ask for the author's birth date. Anyone whose birth occurred after an event cannot serve as an eyewitness, nor can their words alone serve as evidence for that event."

Cheers, my freind! The gulf between us is unbridgeable!

--- Feb 20, 2013 ---

Everybody really interested in the start and origins of Judaism and/or Christianity should read "Jerusalem, a biography" from Montefiori.

FlyingDutchman wrote:Everybody really interested in the start and origins of Judaism and/or Christianity should read "Jerusalem, a biography" from Montefiori.

Thanks for the tip FD, I've just ordered it from Amazon. I hadn't realised until I went on to Amazon that the author is Simon Sebag Montefiori, he used to write (and might still do) for the Sunday Times. I used to enjoy reading his column. He is married to Santa, the sister of Tara Palmer Tomkinson, who is a model etc and who's parents are friends of Prince Charles.
I might not know much about the Universe but I'm ok with useless info