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Women and men should wear exactly same clothes to be equal. Agree or disagree?

Being equal means having the same freedoms, having the same liberties (in choice). In many Western European countries gays for example are equal to heterosexuals, yet their sexuality is opposite. Wearing the same, being the same, is actually the opposite of a free pluralistic society wherein everybody has the same rights with the same freedoms of expression.

You have a completely different concept of what equal means, when speaking about equal rights. Sort of the national-socialist concept of equality. Are you feeling me?

Nucleus wrote:Women and men should wear exactly same clothes to be equal. Agree or disagree?

'should wear' - no, that would be silly. It would equally be silly to say men and women should compete against each other in sports (boxing, tennis etc).

I don't have problem with some men choosing to wear a burqa or a dress though, if that is what they want to do.

Cheers,
Shafique

But men don't wear burqa's because their virtue is never in question and apparently men can't feel closer to god by hiding under a sheet with only eyes peeking out, only women can.

Shaf, using the example of sports, are you saying that a male and female's different strength level is a a reason why they have to wear different clothes? Are we back to the "If women don't drape in cloth they are showing they are se.xually available and are not strong enough to fight off all the rapists they will entice by their dress"? Men can walk around with no shirts on because women won't be strong enough to rape them. This is why men and women MUST dress differently.

Nucleus, if you want to suggest a human uniform that can be worn by both men and women for equality's sake, I'd be in favour of that. So far it seems the fuss is always about how much or how little women are wearing, while men can walk around in whatever they want.

kanelli wrote:But men don't wear burqa's because their virtue is never in question and apparently men can't feel closer to god by hiding under a sheet with only eyes peeking out, only women can.

If men start to wear something like Burka would it make a difference. Arabic traditional dress of men is close, just they don't cover the face. I wouldn't be surprised if some men start to cover their face. But virtue of men in this area comes comes from not looking at women (ogling and stuff), which I'm sure would be more difficult than wearing something like Burka.

kanelli wrote: Men can walk around with no shirts on because women won't be strong enough to rape them. This is why men and women MUST dress differently.

That is not the reason given by women who choose to wear burka/veil. I don't agree with them on religious level, but don't see any harm.

kanelli wrote:Nucleus, if you want to suggest a human uniform that can be worn by both men and women for equality's sake, I'd be in favour of that.

I doubt that will happen except few exceptions.

kanelli wrote:while men can walk around in whatever they want.

Men can't walk around in whatever they want, they are supposed to dress modestly too.

kanelli wrote:Shaf, using the example of sports, are you saying that a male and female's different strength level is a a reason why they have to wear different clothes?

No, it is not strength that dictates the different clothing for men and women. In all cultures we see women wearing different clothes from men - I would hazard a guess and say it is because of biological differences - but I am happy to be corrected. What do you think?

As far as Islam is concerned, men and women are addressed directly (and separately) when it comes to modest behaviour and modest dress.

I agree with Nuc's other points in his post.

Cheers,

Shafique

Nucleus and Shaf, I'm under no illusions that we will ever agree on what is appropriate for men and women to wear. There is no fuss over men's clothing because se.xist men believe that only men are more visually stimulated and lustful when looking at women, and therefore the burden lies on women to cover up as much as possible. The reality is that women are visually stimulated and lustful as well. For men, t-shirts and shorts are perfectly acceptable attire, yet a woman is indecent if she wears the same. It is ridiculous!

kanelli wrote:The reality is that women are visually stimulated and lustful as well.

That is why Muslim men are also instructed to dress modestly and why Muslim women are also instructed not to ogle.

But you seem to be obsessed with dress being a means to control animal s.exual desires. It may surprise you that Muslims, like other people, do not primarily dress with an eye to s.exual attraction. Just saying.

As for men and women dressing differently because of their biological differences.. isn't that just a fact in all societies? Topless men and topless women aren't viewed equally in most societies - Tarzan is acceptable children viewing, whereas Jane without a bikini top wouldn't be in most countries. God made us that way, I'd argue.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:But you seem to be obsessed with dress being a means to control animal s.exual desires. It may surprise you that Muslims, like other people, do not primarily dress with an eye to s.exual attraction. Just saying.

I'm not obsessed with it, but people in the Middle East are...

Nucleus posted a blog of one Muslim convert living in Saudi Arabia and she was upset that other covered women were ogling her handsome husband. They stared, giggled, flirted and even offered their number! I'm guessing her husband was conservatively dressed as Saudi men usually are when in Saudi, yet this still happened - and they were covered women and therefore virtuous women who were closer to god.

Most of my Muslim friends dress to look nice when the go out. They wear clothing that is flattering to their body shape and personal sense of style, and the women wear make-up that is flattering, and the men groom their hair and beards nicely. They don't go out advertising to attract se.xual attention, and they aren't wearing a shalwar kameez or abaya or burka either. The majority of non-Muslim Westerners do not dress every day to attract se.xual attention from others either, despite the stereotypes that exist in the Muslim world.

Actually, in some societies both the men and women walk around in loincloths. Documentaries on such societies are found televised on many tv channels and children watch them too. Is that damaging? Hardly.

kanelli wrote:I'm not obsessed with it, but people in the Middle East are...

Well, if they are - then I'll happily join you and tell them to get over this obsession.

I'm glad you're reinforcing my quote that most people (Muslim or non-Muslim) don't dress to advertise se.xual attractiveness. Exceptions to this and bloggers reporting paranioa of jealous spouses is hardly a basis for making generalisations, I'd argue.

Thinking that the 'Muslims World' is obsessing over non-Muslims is a form of stereotyping as well

Actually, in some societies both the men and women walk around in loincloths. Documentaries on such societies are found televised on many tv channels and children watch them too. Is that damaging?

I mentioned the differences in modesty in different societies in an earlier post. That these societies exist does not change what I wrote about Jane going topless would be less tolerated that Tarzan's going topless in the majority of countries.

Cheers,

Shafique

kanelli wrote:Nucleus posted a blog of one Muslim convert living in Saudi Arabia and she was upset that other covered women were ogling her handsome husband. They stared, giggled, flirted and even offered their number!

Where? I don't remember that one.

--- Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:00 pm ---

From religious point of view men are not supposed to look at other women (I don't mean normal conversation), regardless of what a woman is wearing. Skimpy or modest dress doesn't make a difference, but I'm expecting this point to go over the head.

Nucleus, you posted the blog but not the specific article. I think it was the Blue Abaya blog or something like that.

"go over the head" Geez, I'm getting flashbacks to EH and FD who criticised my intelligence when I didn't agree with their point of view. Maybe its a male thing.

kanelli wrote: Geez, I'm getting flashbacks to EH and FD who criticised my intelligence when I didn't agree with their point of view.

Intelligence issue didn't cross my mind, but now j/k I'm coming from, it appears you are not reading what we are saying. So many times you have repeated the same thing, even though that was not what was said on the forum.

I disagree that it wasn't said or implied by other's comments. I can provide quotes should you like to see the evidence.

kanelli wrote:I disagree that it wasn't said or implied by other's comments. I can provide quotes should you like to see the evidence.

Sure, but implied can be interpretation, and is not something on objective basis. Going by that logic anybody can interpret anything to imply something based on bias, preconceived notions, or maybe a person is going through some sort of anxiety. Hence, my connotation.

If you give a specific instance where I have misinterpreted, please let me know and I can provide quote and we can discuss from there.

kanelli wrote:If you give a specific instance where I have misinterpreted, please let me know and I can provide quote and we can discuss from there

Here:

kanelli wrote: We've already had discussions on this forum when Muslim men have concluded that men can't control themselves

dubai-chat/what-with-some-people-t51988-15.html#p417081

kanelli wrote:There is no fuss over men's clothing

dubai-politics-talk/equality-dress-between-men-and-woman-t52362.html#p418201

Actually there is, at least it would be in Gulf countries. But we don't get men walking in revealing clothes. Let a few men walk with revealing pants in malls and see how much fuss it gets. These men will get in more trouble with the police than any women caught with revealing cloths in public.

There isn't a fuss over men's clothing. I saw men in swim trunks on the beach while their wives were in an abaya or niqab sitting and watching from the sidelines and not enjoying a swim themselves. In the mall I saw men in tank tops and shorts and t-shirts and shorts while their wives were in an abaya or fully covered with long sleeves, long pants and hijab. It is a glaring double standard. In Dubai I did see far more men dressed in the kandoora and shalwar kameez compared to in Western countries where I've seen couples walking together. It seems many men enjoy the freedom of dressing in a more "Westernized" way while the women do not. Perhaps some will just say that women are more faithful to their religion than the men I guess...

In Gulf countries, if a woman was to wear tank top or t-shirt and shorts she would be considered indecently dressed while the men are not seen to be indecently dressed in the same attire.

kanelli wrote: I saw men in swim trunks on the beach while their wives were in an abaya or niqab sitting and watching from the sidelines and not enjoying a swim themselves.

That is usually for families from gulf, women are highly conservative. But here swimsuit on the beach is allowed, and those who are not conservative wear differently.

kanelli wrote:It seems many men enjoy the freedom of dressing in a more "Westernized" way while the women do not.

Isn't that a loaded question? I wear pant and shirt frequently, "Westernized" never really crossed my mind. People normally are not that polarized, considering this is west or this is east. If I could I would prefer to wear traditional Chinese dress all the time, but not many wear it so it will look odd. It is much easier to manage than dishdash and more comfortable than pant and shirt, and still covers properly.

kanelli wrote:In Gulf countries, if a woman was to wear tank top or t-shirt and shorts she would be considered indecently dressed while the men are not seen to be indecently dressed in the same attire.

This is not a fair argument, normally all over the world men and women have different level of covering which is considered indecent. But if a man was wearing revealing pant he will get more in trouble with the police in comparison if a woman was wearing similarly revealing pant.

kanelli wrote: In Dubai I did see far more men dressed in the kandoora and shalwar kameez compared to in Western countries where I've seen couples walking together. It seems many men enjoy the freedom of dressing in a more "Westernized" way while the women do not.

I think that in the same way you notice all the other cars on the road that match the car you're thinking of driving or own, it is human nature to notice what one perceives reality to be. Perspective and prior prejudices influence what we notice and what we 'see'.

Another perspective would be that in Dubai the norm would be for men to cover up and not wear 'tank tops and shorts' whilst out with wives/sisters/mothers are in abaya - but rather for the men to be wearing loose fitting Kandooras and Shalwar Kameez - or wearing trousers and tops which cover pretty much the same amount of skin (and perhaps even a baseball cap for the youngsters).

Another perspective would be those who observe Arab women walking together where some are in abayas, some are in dresses and some are in jeans and t-shirts. That was our observation when I first visited Dubai about 10 years ago (what myself and my colleagues all noticed). This perspective hasn't really changed - and it showed that the women weren't homogenous when it came to covering up.

Anyway, my perspective and approach is quite simple. I have my views, and where possible I check out whether my views match the reality of the women making the choices. Where they tell me their reasoning for their choices, I give that quite a bit of credibility.

Cheers,
Shafique

So Shaf are you saying that I have not indeed seen men in t-shirts and shorts, tank top and shorts, and swim trunks next to their wives/sisters/mothers who are covered to a much higher degree - This is only my biased perception of the reality?

Nucleus, my point is that there are men who don't wear long sleeved shirts and long-sleeved pants all the while expecting their wives/sisters/mothers to cover down to their ankles, neck, and wrists. From my perspective, there should be more men showing the same "virtue" and "respect" for their bodies/wife/religion by covering to the same extent that their women-folk are expected to cover. Equality

kanelli wrote:So Shaf are you saying that I have not indeed seen men in t-shirts and shorts, tank top and shorts, and swim trunks next to their wives/sisters/mothers who are covered to a much higher degree - This is only my biased perception of the reality?

I used the words 'another perspective' and 'the norm would be' in my post - specifically about your comment about dress in malls. I didn't say that you have not seen what you describe, but said that another perspective is that 'this is not the norm' in Dubai.

Cheers,

Shafique