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In Islam, going on Hajj is one of the five pillars of Islam and is considered obligatory for Muslims to on at least once in their life:

The Five Pillars of Islam (arkān-al-Islām أركان الإسلام; also arkān ad-dīn أركان الدين "pillars of the religion") are five basic acts in Sunni Islam, considered obligatory by believers. These are summarized in the famous Hadith of Gabriel.[1][2][3][4]

The Qur'an presents them as a framework for worship and a sign of commitment to the faith. They are (1) the shahada (Islamic creed), (2) daily prayers (salah), (3) almsgiving (zakāt), (4) fasting during Ramadan (sawm), and (5) the pilgrimage to Mecca (hajj) at least once in a lifetime.[5][6]

What is interesting though, is that the vast majority of Muslims living today will never perform hajj.

Based on various sources, there are approximately 1.2-1.5 Billion Muslims in the world today. Yet, the number of foreign pilgrims to Mecca each year (as of last year) was only 1.8 million. In the past seven years (2011-2005), 11,867,617 foreign (non-Saudi residents) Muslims made Hajj.

According to the below website, 56 million die every year - applying this figure uniformly to the Muslim population and simply multiplying the annual death rate by the ratio of Muslim:nonMuslim in the world, 1:5, (56 million*1/5) gives us 11.2 million deaths amongst Muslims annually. Deaths amongst Muslims far exceed the number of Muslims making Hajj.

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/About_ ... _rate.html

The facts are that vast majority of Muslims in the world will NOT perform a fundamental and obligatory pillar of their faith.

Why? The founder of Islam lived in the Arabian peninsula 1,400 years ago. During his time he envisioned Islam to only extend to the Arabs and there was no understanding of a world where with hundreds of millions and later billions of humans living thousands of miles from Mecca.

Islam was a religion for the Arabs and other people living in the region but clearly cannot handle the geographic and numerical challenges that crop up when Islam expanded beyond its intended frontier.

The Islam of today is impossible to properly follow. This isn't even an issue of individual choice - Mecca cannot handle 11-12 million foreign visitors per year. Islam's very success in growing and spreading prevents the vast majority of Muslims from fully following their religion.

Oh dear, eh and statistics - in support of an anti-Muslim view of the world. It is bound to end in tears.

Firstly, God only made Haj an obligation on those who can physically make the pilgrimage - and can afford to do so without making any debt. It has been this way from the outset. So from outset, not everyone can perform Haj (in the same way, not everyone will be able to fast - at that is a pillar of Islam too). So fail number one is relying on anti-Muslim blogger to tell him that it is obligatory on all Muslims - not even all those living in Arabia. It isn't, and quick Google would have disabused him of this simple failure of comprehension.

Secondly, the calculations eh has made are flawed.

For argument's sake, let us take a figure of 11.2 million deaths of Muslims this year. The figure eh wants to get to is how many of these Muslims didn't perform Haj. We don't know this directly.

These 11.2 milliion Muslims would have had, on average say, about 20 years at least to perform Haj (provided they could afford to do so, and were able bodied). So looking at numbers only in the past 7 years doesn't give a good indication of how many Muslims perform Haj.

But statistical flaws of logic aside, from the earliest time of Islam's spread - the majority of Muslims would not have performed Haj. In the 20th Century the numbers have picked up substantially (It was around 50,000 a year in the 1920s) - so the proportion of Muslims performing Haj has increased.

Those that could make the journey, it was an obligation. God's requirement for Haj as a pillar of Islam, had a built in logic that it was only obligatory on those who could make the journey.



It appears that rayznack's comeback attempt after his failure in the NT evidence that earliest Christians did not worship Jesus thread has crashed and burned.

Cheers,

Shafique

Firstly, God only made Haj an obligation on those who can physically make the pilgrimage - and can afford to do so without making any debt. It has been this way from the outset. So from outset, not everyone can perform Haj (in the same way, not everyone will be able to fast - at that is a pillar of Islam too). So fail number one is relying on anti-Muslim blogger to tell him that it is obligatory on all Muslims - not even all those living in Arabia. It isn't, and quick Google would have disabused him of this simple failure of comprehension.

I love how you make the following out to be a critical omission in this discussion. How many people in their entire lifetime will be prevented due to medical reasons from performing Hajj? Very few, obviously, unless they converted as senior citizens.

Your second point is adding grist to my mill. The further away people are from Mecca the greater the costs. Thanks, that's exactly an underlying issue here and how the Muslim world Muhammad imagined is vastly different from the reality. The cost of a Saudi going to Hajj is no where proportional to a Pakistani or Chilean. If you want to claim otherwise, just tell me the proportion of Pakistani/Afghan/Indian/Malay/Indonesian Muslims performing Hajj to Saudi. My guess ~90% of Saudis make the pilgrimage compared to...10-20% of the other group?

For argument's sake, let us take a figure of 11.2 million deaths of Muslims this year. The figure eh wants to get to is how many of these Muslims didn't perform Haj. We don't know this directly.

You're not very good at numbers, are you? If more Muslims are dying per year than going to Hajj then the difference is an approximate estimation how many never go.

These 11.2 milliion Muslims would have had, on average say, about 20 years at least to perform Haj (provided they could afford to do so, and were able bodied). So looking at numbers only in the past 7 years doesn't give a good indication of how many Muslims perform Haj.

11.2 million Muslims die ANNUALLY. If you want to talk about the last 20 years then address the number of Muslims who died during that time period and the number of Muslims who performed Hajj. In the past 20, 40, 60 year period FAR more Muslims died than went on Hajj.

the majority of Muslims would not have performed Haj. In the 20th Century the numbers have picked up substantially (It was around 50,000 a year in the 1920s) - so the proportion of Muslims performing Haj has increased.

Read back what I said about adding grist to my mill. Pointing out that in previous generations the proportion of Muslims going to Hajj was even lower isn't helping your argument but providing substantial points to mine.

Of course, shafique cannot address what I concluded in my last paragraphs - it is IMPOSSIBLE for all able bodied Muslims to make Hajj. Mecca cannot accommodate 12 million visitors annually. There is no dispute from shafique on this point. It's simply a numerical fact.

The criteria are simple: 1. Able bodied, 2. Can afford to go without debt.

Why are you excluding the 'can afford to go' bit? That automatically excludes a large proportion of the population (and has done from the start of Islam). God says Islam is not a religion that seeks to make harsh conditions on the believers.

Of the able bodied Muslims in the world that can afford to go, they will have about 20 or 30 years over which to go for Haj (perhaps even longer). When you factor that into your flawed calculation, you'll see that even on that score your not making much sense.

Oh, and just to be clear:

If more Muslims are dying per year than going to Hajj then the difference is an approximate estimation how many never go.

No, you're wrong. Just think about it some more.

Cheers,
Shafique

No, you're wrong. Just think about it some more.

I doubt it since I responded to your previous ridiculous argument that I should look at the past twenty years. You, of course, didn't factor in the last twenty years of Muslims dying which far outstrips the number of Muslims performing hajj.

The point that traveling from Pakistan to Saudi is more of a burden than traveling some place in Saudi to Mecca adds grist to my mill as I've explained before.

But regardless, if all able-bodied Muslims out of the entire 1.5 billion Muslim community could afford to go without debt, Mecca would be unable to accommodate that large number of pilgrims.

You just need to think about it some more - and consider my final points below.

Anyway, the fifth pillar of Islam is one that a Muslim needs to perform only once in their lifetime +if they can+. It is the last pillar and the one with the lowest frequency.

The first is the Shahada: testifying that God is one and Muhammad, pbuh, is his Messenger. This is a continuous condition and one all Muslims have no issue complying with all the time.

The second is offering the five daily acts of worship (preferably in congregation) - this is (by definition) daily prayers, 5 times a day. Worship of God in between these prayers is also required of Muslims (God instructs this in the Quran - and the practice is to offer supplementary prayers - Nafil prayers - and also meditation on God and silent prayers - Zikr illahi)

The third pillar is Fasting during the month of Ramadhan. By defintion this is for a month a year. As with Zakaat and Haj, this is done by those who can - and is not obligatory on all Muslims. Most Muslims should be able to fast during their lifetimes.

The fourth is Zakaat - a tax on unused capital during the year above a certain limit, that is used to help the poor. This is payable once a year, and only obligatory on those who have a certain amount of unused/unproductive capital over a given year. Thus this is once a year, by only those who have the means.

The fifth is Haj - once in a lifetime, if you can afford to go without incurring debts.


There is therefore a clear and logical progression in the frequency of the pillars of Islam - from continuous on everyone, to once in a lifetime for some.

The Saudis have introduced quotas for countries sending pilgrims. The statistic eh should be looking at is how many applicants for Haj die before they go. Each country prioritises the older applicants, and the younger ones will go in subsequent years. Therein is the main flaw in eh's argument.

eh, I suggest you finish the discussion on the evidence in the NT that shows that the earliest Christians did not worship Jesus as God. You made some false claims about Dunn's views and his book that I answered. Have you now conceded that I've accurately reported his conclusion - that the earliest Christians did not worship Jesus as God (and that Jesus himself was a monotheist and only worshipped one God?)

Cheers,
Shafique

The Saudis have introduced quotas for countries sending pilgrims. The statistic eh should be looking at is how many applicants for Haj die before they go. Each country prioritises the older applicants, and the younger ones will go in subsequent years. Therein is the main flaw in eh's argument.

Wow. You really are bad at statistics, aren't you?

It isn't a flaw - if you actually thought about what you just said you would see you're proving my point.

"younger applicants...later years" = older applicants by the time they actually make hajj.

Back listing also proves my point. Think about that.

You made some false claims about Dunn's views and his book that I answered.

Really? Name one false claim I've made about Dunn.

How about having several pilgrimages per year instead of just one - then more Muslims can attend.

^The Haj is over a specific number of days each year, so can't be extended multiple times a year. It follows the lunar calendar - so is like Ramadhan. The end of Haj is Eid ul Adhia, the end of Ramadhan is Eid ul Fitr.

That said, there is, the Umrah - which is the lesser pilgrimage and that can be done during the rest of the year (and only takes part of one day). I've done Umrah, but not Haj (yet).

Cheers,

Shafique

kanelli wrote:How about having several pilgrimages per year instead of just one - then more Muslims can attend.

Why not have more Carnavals for Catholics and Purims for Jews, so everybody can party all year around?

shafique , but I'm sure an exception could be made if the population of Muslims is so large and they want to perform the 5th pillar. Do you think your God would really mind? He doesn't seem to mind all kinds of other things done in the name of his religion...

Some people do celebrate Christmas in July - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_in_July

And the date of Christmas is arbitrary, since no one knows exactly the date Jesus was born. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas

kanelli wrote: but I'm sure an exception could be made if the population of Muslims is so large and they want to perform the 5th pillar.

Well, should it get to that stage, the 'powers that be' can debate the issue (there's pretty little chance of them agreeing though..) . For now we've gone from about 20,000 a year a century ago to 3 million a year. That's some increase - and more can be done, but it appears to me they are approaching the limit of crowd controls etc.

Given that Muslims only have to perform Haj once in their lifetimes, and only if they can afford it - I think for now the once a year pilgrimage doesn't need to be held again during the year.

But nice of eh to show concern for the pilgrims, don't you think?



As for Christmas in July - why not? Some Orthodox Christians celebrate on Jan 6 and other Christians don't believe in Christmas at all!

Cheers,

Shafique