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I'm usually tolerant of these things but this one takes the cake.

One woman was walking in the mall with bare belly and chiffon skirt, so basically almost everything was visible except the top. I doubt something like that would be allowed in US too in a public place, not sure about UK.

I don't wear white cotton pants because they can show something private that should be private.

I think we discussed this in the other topics by chocs, forget rest of the year, atleast in ramadan have some respect for local laws and traditions. And like mentioned in the previous topic now this has become a hot topic of discussion in local circles and even reached the FNC. If things do get tighter you will have these few dumb @sses to thank for making things hard for the rest of us. And I for one don't want to see things become Saudi-esque.

I saw a woman the other day with a strappy top on and very short shorts, that were cut off so the pockets were hanging out beneath. Never mind how revealing it was, she looked cheap and tacky.

Sorry guys, I can't accept any more arguments about you supporting a woman's choice to wear what she likes when I see comments like that. You want Western countries to accept women wearing the burka and niqab and hiding their faces, but can't accept women who don't cover up in Dubai. So much for women's freedom to choose what they wear!

I'm a feminist and support a woman's right to choose up to a point. I'm fully supportive of laws saying that women (and men) must not expose too much skin in public in the UAE (needs to be properly described though, so people can dress accordingly), and also supportive of laws in the West saying that women cannot wear the burka or niqab (though can wear abaya and hijab). Each set of laws is appropriate for the dominant culture/religion.

kanelli wrote:You want Western countries to accept women wearing the burka

Where? Other article was not about west.

kanelli wrote: I'm fully supportive of laws saying that women (and men) must not expose too much skin in public in the UAE (needs to be properly described though, so people can dress accordingly), and also supportive of laws in the West saying that women cannot wear the burka or niqab (though can wear abaya and hijab).

No disagreement there. But possibly ban on hijab maybe coming also.

Then K you should have no issues with women choosing to wear the veil in muslim dominant countries of the MENA reagion, but apparently that is not case is it, because in your view these women need liberating according to your comments in the other thread.

desertdudeshj , if MENA countries don't ban women from wearing it because others in society subscribe to what it supposedly means, that's fine. In the West we don't like people covering their faces and actually already have laws about people in crowds covering their faces. From a feminist perspective, I don't understand why any woman would choose to view herself as a se.x object that needs to be hidden from male view, nor set the standard for piety so high that unless a Muslim woman covers completely in a black sheet she isn't pious "enough".

They think they are liberating themselves by becoming invisible in public, but are they really? Well, I'm guessing Herve and Michael Jackson felt pretty liberated wearing a burka and niqab in public, so maybe I'm wrong.

Too bad more Muslim men weren't taking up the niqab to be more pious for their wives and mothers and their god. Men should know that women enjoy looking at handsome men, and have lustful thoughts when they see them. The secret is out!

Nucleus, I would never support a ban on the hijab.

kanelli wrote:Men should know that women enjoy looking at handsome men, and have lustful thoughts when they see them.

Muslim men are supposed to have modest attire too.

kanelli wrote:In the West we don't like people covering their faces and actually already have laws about people in crowds covering their faces.

No they don't, only recently a few countries like France and Belgium came up with it specially for the Muslim women.

This is in your country. Canada, Montreal May 1st 2012

kanelli wrote:I don't understand why any woman would choose to view herself as a se.x object that needs to be hidden from male view, nor set the standard for piety so high that unless a Muslim woman covers completely in a black sheet she isn't pious "enough".

And from this statement its quite clear you don't have much knowledge of what you talk about. Women who do veil themselves out of their own freewill do not view themselves as s£x objects or any thing such but because they want to emulate the most beloved Prophets families female members. Similarly a lot of men also do the same. Although keeping a short, well kept beard is not requirement many do along with a lot of other traits. Its only for the love of God and his beloved prophet and not for anyone or anything else. I guess you could kind of compare it to a nun's habitat. No one seems to mind them and they have to be in that attire 24/7. Muslim women have to dorn the Hijab only in front of non related males. At home and with family they can wear anything, unlike the nuns. Maybe they need some liberating too ?

Also there is nowhere mentioned that the Hijab has to be black. The Hijab is not a uniform but rather a dresscode and as long as that is fullfilled a woman can pretty much wear what ever she wants and what ever colour she wants, pants, jackets shirts etc etc. Look at the women of the subcontinent or Malaysia and you see women in Hijab but in very colour attire. The black abaya is an Arab cultral thing and not the Muslim uniform for women.

desertdudeshj wrote: Look at the women of the subcontinent or Malaysia and you see women in Hijab but in very colour attire. The black abaya is an Arab cultral thing and not the Muslim uniform for women.

A good point. In Mauritius the equivalent of abayas (here they call them 'coats') are rarely black - indeed the black one's are usually abayas bought in Dubai and only worn occasionally - usually they are light coloured and of relatively light, thin (but opaque) material.

Similarly, headscarves are colourful too.



As an aside, today is Assumption day. Our Christian neighbours and friends all celebrate the day and the tradition is to have cakes (birthday/wedding cake style cakes) that are decorated with white icing, and light blue writing and depictions of the Virgin Mary. These are everywhere in the run up to today's holiday. Just yesterday I was looking at some whilst in the pattiserie and was admiring the icing work done on the depictions of Mary - and it struck me again how she is dressed in what would be called a Hijab today!

Cheers,
Shafique

You don't have to go that far back shaf. Just look at women attire around 100 years back or so in what is collectively known as the "west" Head coverings and long skirts till the ankles were the norm. What about womens suffrage in countries like the US ( 1920 with the 19th amendment of the constitution ). Equality for people of colour.

So I actually find it ironic if not out right funny, these people lecturing the "third world" about issues like human rights and womens freedom when within living memory of many none of these existed or were severly limited in their own. Most of countries being talked are relatively new, 50 years being a good average age for most, give them sometime. When it took the west centuries to come where they are today and even today their systems and laws are far from perfect.

And honestly end of this whole "discussion" ( from my side ) as you very well put it, just a piece of cloth. Nothing can be more fitting of for the saying. Making a mountain out of a mole hill.

desertdudeshj , Yes we do actually! In the UK people are not allowed to wear hoodies, bike helmets etc that stop them from being identified.

I wish to wear niqab when I go outside and take it off indoors (gym, malls, lectures etc.) as I can see difference between skin of those who cover their faces and us who don't. Natural sun protection...more effective then products of Clinique. Just I am concerned about car driving....and if I will look wired to people when I take it off once I enter the building or malls.... I don't know any part-time niqab holder to ask for expirience....

Wouldn't remioving it to go into public palces sort of defeat the object of wearing it in the first place? With car driving I would ask if you find it impedes your vision at all.

Chocoholic wrote:Yes we do actually! In the UK people are not allowed to wear hoodies, bike helmets etc that stop them from being identified.

Specific cases for specific situations, not blanket bans.

DDS, I'm well aware that Muslim women around the world can wear other colours besides black. I've seen Muslims in the Middle East, Europe, Asia and North America.

And you are wrong that some Western countries don't have laws about covering faces in a crowd. Just because Canada doesn't have one yet doesn't mean it won't. I would fully support a ban on face coverings in crowds, because the trend has been seen that the ones wearing the face masks in protesting crowds tend to be the ones who become violent and destroy property and loot shops.

Shaf posted a quote from a veiled woman who says it liberates her from men se.xualising her femininity. Is she lying DDS? We've already had discussions on this forum when Muslim men have concluded that men can't control themselves and if women show too much skin they are at risk of being raped for putting all of their body on display. As Mona Eltahawy pointed out, if women are raised from childhood to think that god will punish them for not covering up, do you think it feels like much of a choice to them? It doesn't seem to matter that the Quran doesn't say that women must wear the veil.

Nucleus, bearded men wearing caps can still be handsome. I found quite a few men wearing dishdashas good looking (though short ), even if I couldn't see the exact shape of all their body parts underneath. None of those forms of dress for men can compare to a woman being draped in a sheet (be it black, grey, blue etc.) with her eyes peeking out. As I mentioned before, I can't even tell you how many times I've seen women completely covered while their husband is wearing shorts, t-shirt and baseball cap. It is a glaring indication of a double standard about how men and women's bodies are viewed.

Shamoosa seems to be deciding about wearing the veil. Her main motivation is for sun protection outside, but she prefers to not wear the veil indoors. No mention of men or religion. Interesting! The funny thing is that other Muslim men and women will be looking at her and admiring her committment to god, her piety, and the honour she brings to her husband, father, and family by covering to the pinnacle of covering.

kanelli wrote: We've already had discussions on this forum when Muslim men have concluded that men can't control themselves and if women show too much skin they are at risk of being raped for putting all of their body on display.

From my memory, I don't recall any man (Muslim or otherwise) here blaming women for being raped and making excuses for rapists - by saying that men CAN'T control themselves. Perhaps you're projecting a view that hasn't been expressed (that women are to blame for men who rape etc).

And I do hope you're not making the case that all Muslim men think that men can't control themselves and force Muslim women to cover up.

And even if it was the case, why do you think that is why the women want to wear a hijab and a veil, rather than the reasons they give? The Guardian article states that wearing modest clothing for her is to make her less of a s.exual object and more of a person - which I think is more of a indictment of how women are viewed now-a-days rather than the hijab itself.

(Shamoosa is a wind-up, shurely )

Cheers,
Shafique

Leaving one's wallet out in public encourages the money to be stolen, so a woman who puts all of her body on display in public should also expect for it to be stolen too. Sound familiar?

I certainly hope that men think they can control themselves. I've met tons of decent men who don't harass women. Still, it is puzzling that when women give the reason for covering as protecting themselves from being se.xualized and harassed by men, who by their nature are driven by their stronger se.xuality, it is fully supported by the men. "Good women cover up." So I can only conclude that they agree (while they enjoy their t-shirts and shorts).

If married women who are raped are jailed for infidelity, isn't that blaming the rape on the woman? If a girl is married off to her violent rapist, isn't that blaming the woman for the rape? If she isn't being blamed, why is she being punished?

--- Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:32 pm ---

If I'm wearing a summer dress that goes to the knees and even has spaghetti straps, I'm just as much of a person as if I was to wear an abaya and hijab. In fact, Western men wouldn't drool over me and disrespect me because of the sundress. I'd get negative attention from Western men (and women) if my sundress was just below my butt-cheeks with a plunging neckline. Now if I was to wear the first mentioned version of the sundress in the middle of a crowd in the Middle East? Different story isn't it.

kanelli wrote:Leaving one's wallet out in public encourages the money to be stolen, so a woman who puts all of her body on display in public should also expect for it to be stolen too. Sound familiar?

Just to make it clear that is your interpretation, not mine.

Hey guys clothes is not measurement for belief. You can be fully covered and watch pornos for example....or backbiting or anything bad. Ihsan is something between us and God. To be pious when people are not able to see you.

I don't think that we are obligated to cover face. In Qur'an that obligation is for women of Prophet Muhammed, peace been upon him.

Yet if I know it is obligation for me I will strugle to put it even if that mean that I will do sports in it ( some guys wear masks for better performance, so it will just be good challenge for me). But why to over-do something when life is easier like this.
But as I said before the skin of face is really reason that I would wear niqab outside. And that is the reason that most of Gulf women wear it traditionaly. My local friends unveil as well when they are in restaurants or indoor.

Now if anyone force me to wear niqab I would never put it, and also if anyone force me to take it off if I put it then I would never do it. Just mind your own business, I know how to deal with those who might get hot if I am uncovered as well with those who would dare to put hand on my hijab/niqab.

Now why girls walk naked in Dubai is not big secret. Everyone is hoping to catch some rich shaikh....so people do not get excited when you see them....they are not like that because of you. Just lower your gaze and pray that locals have more sons who would pick up those poor girls so that you ordinary guys are not in trouble and fitnah: D

kanell wrote:Leaving one's wallet out in public encourages the money to be stolen, so a woman who puts all of her body on display in public should also expect for it to be stolen too. Sound familiar?

I still don't remember anyone here blaming women for being raped or excusing the rapists. In the analogy the person who said it (was it Berrin?) would have to say that the theif wasn't at fault or that theft is ok. I don't recall him saying that. A theif is still a theif, and theft is still a crime.

I also don't recall anyone here saying they agreed with rape victims being victimised or jailed either.

kanelli wrote:If I'm wearing a summer dress that goes to the knees and even has spaghetti straps, I'm just as much of a person as if I was to wear an abaya and hijab.

Agreed. And a person choosing to wear a veil in Europe is as much a person as anyone choosing to wear a summer dress. That's our argument. Your's is that the lady choosing to cover up is somehow 'invisible' - and eh's is that she's 'dehumanised'.

Someone wearing what Dave Chappelle calls the 'whore's uniform' is sending out a particular message. Someone wearing a veil is sending out another message. But both are still persons.

I'm simply not agreeing with you that covering up your nose and mouth should be a criminal offence. I don't agree with your logic for wanting it criminalised or indeed why you are opposed to women choosing to cover up to this extent.

Cheers,

Shafique

This is my country. Shocking for others but normal for us. No males jump on any....pious guys lower their gaze, the others stare.... It is easy to be religious in ME. The challenge is to be pious in Sarajevo

Btw guys go visit Sarajevo it is cheap
http://Www.bosniatravels.com

shafique wrote: In the analogy the person who said it (was it Berrin?) would have to say that the theif wasn't at fault or that theft is ok.

It was me and I didn't say it encourages I said it is better to be careful. There is a difference between encouraging and careful, K totally changed the meaning. The two examples I have given should have cleared any doubts what I meant, Dubai were there better rule of law, safety is not much an issue as opposed to places like congo. It was not they way K is reinterpreting it. US, congo and some other places have highest rate of sexual violence in the world, little common sense to be careful not sure how that can be misinterpreted. And it is not just about the hijab, care is not just limited to hijab, most rapes in US happen when people are drunk. And then their are stalkers, it is common sense to be careful. Nobody blamed the victim here on this forum.

Thanks for clarifying Nucleus that you were not blaming the victims. That is how I read it as well.

Many studies also show that the majority of rapes around the world aren't reported, and that many (if not the the majority) are committed by men known to the woman - typically male friends, boy friends or even spousal rape. Alcohol plays a major part in violence against women in most parts of the world. Cultural issues are also a factor in many parts of the world and shouldn't be minimised - be it in Asia, Latin America, Arab countries or Africa.

Criminalising the few women who choose to cover their mouth and nose in public in the West seems to me to be missing the wood for the (small and few) trees.

Cheers,
Shafique

Shamoosa ,Girls dress skimpily because they're gold diggers? Come on, you don't seriously believe that!

Who said anuthing about gold lol ask girls, if yoi don't believe me.

Shamoosa , I am a girl and certainly neither I nor any of my friends or people we know are like that. The way someone dresses very rarely has anything to do with money grabbing. 'Gold-digging' is a term for someone who is after a man for his cash.

Your problem if you understand that running after shaikhs is because of their cash..... It is not all like that. There is something in fame, pride, style of life, position, achivements of vilage girls....

You can see many really beautifill girls, they are working, indenpendent and yetthey refuse everyone hoping one day prince will come....so they became old, frustrated and negative energy holders. Just run away....

And those fake blonde...O God....
Did you ever observed their stances, lips, moves. It seems they get pain after hours of acting outside....Why they think any blond hair and fair skin and Arabs will fall down ha ha ha

Yet there is also something phenomenal about some specific races as my own. After war many girl decided to many Arabs even that was not habbit before, just because few Arabs came and showed their manhood, ability to protect women, where local people sometimes failed....

It is much deeper then money.... Girls like security and loyality. If they don't find it in their countries because their boys drink, use drugs, change girls every night etc. They will come in conservative comunity hoping to get man for themselves.

To achieve that goal they will use all what they have, and in all ways they can... Observe deeply if tou don't believe me. When you got old as me and so expirienced then you will see how fake this world is.

http://www.rainn.org/get-information/st ... -offenders So in the US, 73% of se.xual assaults are perpetrated by non-strangers. Based on what the research says, RAINN gives the following recommendation to help women avoid being in a dangerous situation,

RAINN wrote:AVOIDING DANGEROUS SITUATIONS

Be aware of your surroundings. Knowing where you are and who is around you may help you to find a way to get out of a bad situation.

Try to avoid isolated areas. It is more difficult to get help if no one is around.

Walk with purpose. Even if you don't know where you are going, act like you do.

Trust your instincts. If a situation or location feels unsafe or uncomfortable, it probably isn't the best place to be.

Try not to load yourself down with packages or bags as this can make you appear more vulnerable.Make sure your cell phone is with you and charged and that you have cab money.

Don't allow yourself to be isolated with someone you don't trust or someone you don't know.Avoid putting music headphones in both ears so that you can be more aware of your surroundings, especially if you are walking alone.

IN A SOCIAL SITUATION

When you go to a social gathering, go with a group of friends. Arrive together, check in with each other throughout the evening, and leave together. Knowing where you are and who is around you may help you to find a way out of a bad situation.

Trust your instincts. If you feel unsafe in any situation, go with your gut. If you see something suspicious, contact law enforcement immediately (local authorities can be reached by calling 911 in most areas of the U.S.).

Don't leave your drink unattended while talking, dancing, using the restroom, or making a phone call. If you've left your drink alone, just get a new one.

Don't accept drinks from people you don't know or trust. If you choose to accept a drink, go with the person to the bar to order it, watch it being poured, and carry it yourself. At parties, don't drink from the punch bowls or other large, common open containers.

Watch out for your friends, and vice versa. If a friend seems out of it, is way too intoxicated for the amount of alcohol they've had, or is acting out of character, get him or her to a safe place immediately.

If you suspect you or a friend has been drugged, contact law enforcement immediately (local authorities can be reached by calling 911 in most areas of the U.S.). Be explicit with doctors so they can give you the correct tests (you will need a urine test and possibly others).

Why didn't they mention that women should not wear skimpy clothing? Because the research studies have shown that it isn't a causing factor. Either the woman was already a chosen target by someone she knows (majority of cases), or she was targeted by an attacker because she was female and in the right place at the right time. Appearing lost or physically vulnerable are more important factors than what a woman wears.

So much for the theory that a woman showing too much skin in public puts her at a higher risk of being raped.

^Kanelli, that list actually strengthens the case in favour of the women choosing to dress modestly in public.

Instead of 'muslim woman in hijab' think 'nun in habit'. Nuns may get raped - but it is not a common occurence and is shocking when it takes place. It is not just because a nun wears a habit that she is less likely to be raped - it is down to her choice of behaviour and the situations she puts herself in, and her clear message to people that she is not s.exually available.

Remember that Islam does not prohibit s.exy or skimpy clothing at all. All it says is that this should be for private consumption.

If the 73% of women who are s.exually assaulted by men known to them were wearing the hijab, or a nun's habit, I totally agree they would still have been s.exually assaulted. The guidelines about watching your drinks, socialising in groups etc point to where the actual dangers of s.exual assaults from male acquaintances actually stem from.

The hijab (and veil and nun's habit) are therefore NOT primarily to stop a woman from being s.exually assaulted. They do signal that the woman does not want to be seen as a s.exual object, but it will be the social behaviour, environment and company which will be the main factor whether a woman is more at risk of being assaulted or not.

You seem to be working on the assumption that it is primarily or even mainly about avoiding s.exual harrassment from men who can't otherwise control themselves. I think this is flawed thinking. Hijab or not, women and men following Islamic principles can avoid many of situations where these assaults take place - the principle one being Alcohol related assaults, then the social environment - whether one is alone, in a group, lost etc.

Cheers,

Shafique