Faith And Moving Mountains And Fig Trees

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Faith and moving Mountains and Fig Trees Jul 17, 2012
Rayznack/event horizon is still trying to convince me that he's right to believe that Talking Donkeys existed because the Bible says that a Donkey did talk. He also believes that the earth did stop rotating because that is what the Bible says.

This leads to an interesting point about what Jesus says in the Bible about what those with faith should be able to do:


I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."

Matt 17.20
and
He replied, "If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and planted in the sea,' and it will obey you.

Luke 17.6
and
Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done.

Matt 21.21

Now, I'd say that given that no Christian has actually moved a mountain or have we seen fig trees start throwing themselves into the sea, we either have to reject these verses as false insertions, conclude that no Christian has any faith OR interpret them metaphorically.

I presume that Christians will say that Jesus shouldn't be taken literally in these verses. (Correct me if I'm wrong).

If so, then why believe in talking donkeys literally? Or put it another way, if you believe in talking donkeys - then show me your faith by moving a mountain or order a fig tree to jump in the sea.

Cheers,
Shafique

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Re: Faith And Moving Mountains And Fig Trees Jul 18, 2012
I believe in the miracles of Allah Shafique, and I also believe that not all miracles can be explained with science.. but becouse islam had abrogated all the previous scriptures, we cannot be sure if those miracles told in the bible are what God had promised to the disbelievers in return for belief in prophethood and Allah's revelations or whether they had been subsequent entry..

Now you don't believe in talking donkey but do you believe in talking parrots? :) In the wild, parrots don't talk the language we do, but when we host them in our houses, they can talk? :)

Do you believe that illiterate prophets can read or recite scripture? To me it is illogical but with the miracle of Allah it happens..

Do you believe in inspiration or talent? I do but science cannot explain it...

Dou yo believe a staff can turn into a giant serpent and swallow everthing else around it? I believe so..

Do you believe a newborn baby jesus could talk from cradle? This is not scientific either...

Do you believe mi'raj of prophet muhammed had happened? I believe so...

Do you believe the jinn did ship the throne of belqıs within the blink of an eye? I believe in that too..

Do you believe in the ascension of prophets to a higher station of Allah, out of this world? I do..

Do you believe Adam and Eve' descension to earth from the heaven? I do..

Do you believe in moon split? I do..

Do you believe Allah created the universe? Well of course I do.. :)

There is no end to the power and ability of the almighty Allah, right? And certainly the extend(capacity) of his scientific ability or miracles goes beyond what humanity has been experiencing in this world, well he says so in the quran anyways.. There are verses and hadith explains that some of the features that are found in the paradise for example, goes beyond our understanding or scope of thought in this world.. But they are easy to create and establish by our creator!!.. We cannot explain them by human logic or human science since we are limited in knowledge in this world.. We can only work out scientific theories as much as Allah allows us and nothing more...

This is called full faith in Allah Shafique..
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Re: Faith And Moving Mountains And Fig Trees Jul 18, 2012
I believe in miracles, absolutely. I do believe that miracles by Allah are done within the laws of nature He has created - we may not know how they are done yet (Science is, after all, just a discovery of God's laws) - but I see nothing in the Quran or Hadith that says Allah breaks the laws of nature to perform miracles. Allah is all-knowing and would not ask us to believe in the illogical or silly. So I do absolutely believe in miracles - but not in talking donkeys.

I believe infants can speak sense from the cradle, Allah can cause hypnotic spells to be broken etc etc.

I don't believe that if you have faith in Jesus you can order a mountain to jump in the sea and it will do so. I doubt whether any Christian does either.

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Faith and moving Mountains and Fig Trees Jul 18, 2012
shafique: I do believe that miracles by Allah are done within the laws of nature He has created - we may not know how they are done yet (Science is, after all, just a discovery of God's laws)

The way he uses formulation/(scientific theory)to create those miracles are within his knowledge..(one of his miracle is how he created the first human from clay/earth). This is a specific theory that is confidential to himself, not to be disclosed to humans, so do you think we, man will ever work it out in this world?:) So not all miracles are scientific theories that can be obtained by human power/knowledge in this world!... He deceides how far we can engage ourselves, in our limited time and capacity in this life... This ofcourse doesn't mean that we should stop any effort to understand his formulations.. But what we should understand/accept is that no matter how we try, some things will never be answered, even if we try until doomsday(goes beyond our given abilities)

So in a nutshell we can say that we will work out those miracles(scientific theories) if it is going to benefit human life and enhance our worhsip to Allah in this world, otherwise miracles will be kept as a divine knowledge to their owner, Allah..
shafique:but I see nothing in the Quran or Hadith that says Allah breaks the laws of nature to perform miracles.Allah is all-knowing and would not ask us to believe in the illogical or silly.

Once you worship Allah as all powerful, then there is no need to be explained whether he can break his laws of nature in order to perform miracles:)

As i said, as far as I am concerned some of his miracles are of those types of "scientific theories" that are not allowed to be found out...We are not going to reduce the power of the creator, to the level of the created, are we? There has to be differences to differentiate the creator from the created...
shafique:I believe infants can speak sense from the cradle, Allah can cause hypnotic spells to be broken etc etc.

:) The point is, as in the case of talking baby jesus, Allah can break his laws of nature when he wishes, wheather he uses another method to achieve this is a different matter or question, all I know is that he's not gonna allow us either hypnotic spell or scientific theory in order to achieve newborn speech:)
shafique: I don't believe that if you have faith in Jesus you can order a mountain to jump in the sea and it will do so. I doubt whether any Christian does either.

By the will of Allah it is not diffucult to move a mountain into the sea shafique.. Creating a giant universe with all the masses in it, in proportional distance and order of work is much more diffucult than moving a mountain mass into the sea.. What we don't know for sure is whether this was his promise, otherwise this is within his power..

Our globe, the world, in a year, rotates a distance of about 188 hours in a minute; it covers the distance of twenty-five thousand years in a year. Can't the power that makes it cover great distances in a short time and rotate it like a catapult stone, move a mountain into the sea? :)...
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Re: Faith And Moving Mountains And Fig Trees Jul 18, 2012
There is a difference between believing that God is all powerful and could move a mountain at the command of a human who has faith, and believing that all who have faith can order a mountain into the sea.

The verse in question says that if one has faith, then you can order a mountain to the sea.

Hypotheticals are all good and well, but I still maintain that Allah did not give us logic and intellect and tell us to study His creation and challenge us to find flaws in it, only to have us believe that Allah does actions that offend the logic he gave us or go against the laws of nature He created. Creation is flawless, and therefore should have the capacity for Allah to use it to perform miracles, without having to break it first.

That is my belief anyway.

My discussion with eh is really over whether he chooses to take Jesus' clear words in the verse literally, or whether he believe it is a metaphor. If he takes it as a metaphor - then the question becomes why this verse is metaphorical but the Talking Donkey verse isn't.

I suspect he will choose not to answer. But let's see.

Cheers,

Shafique
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Re: Faith And Moving Mountains And Fig Trees Jul 18, 2012
There is a difference between believing that God is all powerful and could move a mountain at the command of a human who has faith, and believing that all who have faith can order a mountain into the sea. The verse in question says that if one has faith, then you can order a mountain to the sea.

Here, are you differentiating that miracles could only be granted to "one person" only and that a group of people supplicating for a miracle cannot have it? When Allah wills a miracle I don’t think he would discriminate us on an individual or a communal bases.. A prophet, on “one person” level,only commands a miracle,becouse everyone around him as a group asks to see it.. A prophet does not necessarily need a miracle himself after his prophethood declared..
You know that the history of humanity is full of miracles for people with belief and disbelief, initally disbelievers would only commit themselves to phophets and the books of Allah if only prophets showed miracles...Moving mountains is no different than moon split or the birds that Abraham cut into pieces that came back to him alive,jesus’ giving life to the dead people,... Or miracles showed to the believing people as in the cases of noah’s flood, carving of the red sea, protecting abraham from the heat of the fire, ishmael’s protection from the sacrifice, the miracle performed by the small birds during the attack on the Kabah by Abraha’s army with its elephant. Jonah's miraculous saving after being swallowed by a whale, Zechariah’ having a child in his old age or marry having a virgin birth after her parents pray for a blessed child.

The fact is that until significant amount of people became followers of prophets,most of them were allowed to ask for miracles to keep them in covenant with Allah . Miracles used to be a motivation for believers as Satan also used to deceit whilst they used to be subject to humiliation,discrimination and persecution from disbeliever. But as society advanced and belief in Allah and his books established, miracles were gradually banned both for believers and disbelievers as we see it in the case of islam.

Hypotheticals are all good and well, but I still maintain that Allah did not give us logic and intellect and tell us to study His creation and challenge us to find flaws in it,

What flaws shafique? There are no flaws in his creation but only his will which is what we call to be “destiny” in order to become test and trial parts of our lives.
only to have us believe that Allah does actions that offend the logic he gave us or go against the laws of nature He created.

Yes Allah does go out of his way to offend our logic so that we know that they are all coming from him and that sometimes the only cure is by worshiping him alone and asking goodness/help by sincere supplication. So many miracles happen at death bed shafique, haven’t you heard any story at all? So many patience told that the science is no longer helping, only to find out that god is working in miracleous ways:)
Can you explain how someone who commits suicide from a 200 mt bridge, can survive only with minor injuries? Or that perfectly healthy couples(generation of families) one day have a child with genetical disorder that is not seen even one in a few million chance? Do you think your logic or intellect can explain these? We should be gratefull for what we are given, all the time, you know that we could have been put to test by being deprived from so many things at the same time that we cannot explain by laws of nature..
Creation is flawless, and therefore should have the capacity for Allah to use it to perform miracles, without having to break it first.

I already expained that while some miracles are allowed to be explained by human science, some of them aren’t allowed as they are confidential to Allah.
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Re: Faith And Moving Mountains And Fig Trees Jul 18, 2012
I agree with all that you say Berrin - you just misunderstood what I meant about Allah's miracles not offending logic. A miracle is an event that is extra-ordinary - and exactly as you describe, at deaths bed etc.

I actually believe that God's ways have not changed at all - whilst there will be no new scriptural revelation, I believe that Allah continues to communicate as He has always done- via dreams, indirect inspiration and even direct revelation. These are personal experiences and they include miraculous events which are personal.

I don't believe that miracles though are 'super-natural' - in the sense that they violate God's own laws. There is no need for them to be for it to be a miracle. The splitting of the moon is a miracle - and yet there is a plausible scientific explanation for how it appeared to split. For the people watching it is a miracle. For those who can understand the way it happened, it is no less a miracle - for Allah arranged for the conditions to happen at that moment.

I agree we don't (and won't) understand all God's laws - but that is exactly why I think that God creates miracles within His laws, and does nothing to offend logic.

But I come back to the point that this thread is about whether/why eh takes the Biblical verse about moving mountains literally or not. His silence is deafening.

Cheers,

Shafique
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Re: Faith And Moving Mountains And Fig Trees Jul 18, 2012
European wrote:Two exremists discussing the Bible. How very interesting.
Your are right. I do agree that in the sight of an atheist, two believers holding a discussion about religion is bound to be an extremist thing to do. Do you also believe that if you begin to have faith in religion, it would be the most extremist turn of your life? I mean it has to be as it is a great u turn for you, right?
shafique wrote:I don't believe that miracles though are 'super-natural' - in the sense that they violate God's own laws.
Well that's where we are differ from eachother, you'd like to limit God's power to human understanding of natural laws, whilst I say that he has super-natural laws that are confidential to himself, not for us to discover within natural laws of this world..

jsuper natural laws, doesn't mean that they don't fall within laws, it's just that they are specific laws kept to himself not for humans to discover. i.e human creation from clay, we know that this is a fact but we cannot explain it by the nature of laws but tell that to a disbelieving scientist...he thinks that it is illogical therefore we must have been evolved from the monkeys :) See it only becomes logical if you believe in evolution other wise it offends the logic :)
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Re: Faith And Moving Mountains And Fig Trees Jul 18, 2012
Berrin wrote:Well that's where we are differ from eachother, you'd like to limit God's power to human understanding of natural laws, whilst I say that he has super-natural laws that are confidential to himself, not for us to discover within natural laws of this world..


Berrin, if the laws just haven't been discovered yet - then obeying that law isn't super-natural. By definition.

In the past, something levitating by magnetism may seem magical and super-natural. But it is neither.

I'm stating that God is omniscient enough to create enough lee-way in the laws of nature that miracles He performs are allowed for. After all Allah is not bound by time.

jsuper natural laws, doesn't mean that they don't fall within laws, it's just that they are specific laws kept to himself not for humans to discover. i.e human creation from clay, we know that this is a fact but we cannot explain it by the nature of laws but tell that to a disbelieving scientist...he thinks that it is illogical therefore we must have been evolved from the monkeys See it only becomes logical if you believe in evolution other wise it offends the logic


At the start of the quote you seem to be saying what I said above about laws we don't yet fully understand yet. So we may be saying the same thing after all.

As an aside, I do believe that Islam teaches that mankind evolved from lower forms of life - as that is what is in the Quran. Allah did not create humans as complete humans in one go, but in stages - starting with mineral matter (ringing clay) etc..

(This is not to say that I believe we are evolved from monkeys - but I have no issue with saying that all life evolved from lower life forms - after all the universe itself evolved from the creation at the big bang).

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Faith And Moving Mountains And Fig Trees Jul 18, 2012
shafique wrote:As an aside, I do believe that Islam teaches that mankind evolved from lower forms of life - as that is what is in the Quran. Allah did not create humans as complete humans in one go, but in stages - starting with mineral matter (ringing clay) etc..
Yes, stages of creation is different than evolving from two entirely different species... and I also believe that all life evolved from lower life forms to accommodate life in environmental conditions in which they are created to live/survive, if not die out all together..

so have we closed this talking donkey business, apart from that being in the bible? :)

--- Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:36 pm ---

5881

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: A person had been driving an ox loaded with luggage. The ox looked towards him and said: I have not been created for this but for lands (i. e. for ploughing the land and for drawing out water from the wells for the purpose of irrigating the lands). The people said with surprise and awe: Hallowed be Allah, does the ox speak? Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: I believe it and so do Abu Bakr and 'Umar. Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: A shepherd was tendirig the flock when a wolf came there and took away one goat. Tile shepherd pursued it (the wolf) and rescued it (the goat) from that (wolf). The wolf looked towards him and said: Who would save it on the day when there will be no shepherd except me? Thereupon people said: Hallowed be Allah I Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: I believe in it and so do Abu Bakr and Umar believe.


http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display ... umber=5877

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