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A compelling example why the burka should be banned is shown. The case is from a few years ago in Australia about a burka clad woman caught lying that an officer racially profiled her and then grabbed her garment.

After the officer's video was played in court showing the woman was lying, she and her lawyer quickly changed their story saying she wasn't the lady in the video (despite contacting the media before the trial to claim the officer had grabbed her, etc).

Thankfully, the judge in that case didn't believe her (her media appearances made sure to that) and sentenced her to six months in jail (the Islamic community in Australia objected the sentence); but this is nonetheless a perfect example of what can easily happen to people against someone in a burka. Can they prove the person in the burka is the same one they're in court against? Of course not.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ie-mdEeB ... ature=plcp

I don't think you have to ban full face coverings, BUT if they are required to be removed to confirm someone's identity, then people must comply and they should be given tough penalties if they do not.

France recently refused to let 3 women in because they refused to remove their veils to confirm their identity, so they put them on the first flight back to where they came from and rightly so.

I believe people should have the right to wear whatever they want.

Makes me cringe when see tourist in there swimwear walking around the strees and in supermarkets would they do it at home you dont see people walking round tesco in there underwear they would soon be ejected

To clarify, wear what they want within reason and within the local laws and customs - goes without saying really.

ETA: this thread wasn't talking about tourists and whatnot, it was regarding the burka.

Chocoholic wrote:I don't think you have to ban full face coverings, BUT if they are required to be removed to confirm someone's identity, then people must comply and they should be given tough penalties if they do not.

The problem is that the woman did not remove her face covering for the police officer, and then claimed she wasn't the person the officer stopped.

Most people won't be police officers and won't have the authority to ask someone to show their face in a dispute - that burka/niqab covered person will say they have the wrong person in court.

Talk about scraping the bottom of the barrel!

A case from a few years ago where someone didn't get away with a defence, and our resident muslim-hater wants to spin this as a reason to ban ladies from choosing to cover their faces. Is the ban proposed for the whole world or just in Islamophobialand?

I wonder what it is about a piece of cloth a woman chooses to wear that frightens/threatens young eh?

Cheers,

Shafique

I don't think anyone should be allowed to regularly wear things that cover their entire face, and they should always comply with removing anything covering their face for identification purposes. Protestors should not be allowed to cover their faces either, which isn't a problem with most protestors, only the ones who want to be violent, loot, and destroy property.

Convincing women that they are only safe in society and can only maintain their modesty for their male family members by covering their entire face is oppression - whether those women want to admit that or not.

I'm pro-choice myself.

If the women don't see it as oppressive - who am I to argue with them? Some people may believe high heels are a sign of oppression (and a mild form of torture) - but I'd disagree with them if they called for them to be banned. Let the women decide what they wear.

In any case, this was all discussed to death 2 years ago:
dubai-politics-talk/belgium-first-european-country-ban-burka-t41686-30.html#p335412

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:A case from a few years ago where someone didn't get away with a defence

Of course she didn't get away with her defense - she changed her story *after* she was found guilty.

The point in the OP is about burka/niqab woman who aren't as dumb as the lady in the video and from the beginning claim they weren't the person the plaintiff is in dispute with.

(Jee, I didn't think it was that difficult to figure out)

shafique wrote:I'm pro-choice myself.

[...]

Let the women decide what they wear.

Empty talking point. No one except nudists/naturalists are fully pro-choice when it comes to clothing.

You're either what the term "pro-choice" actually means or you aren't.

Tell me you have more than the one case from a few years ago to back up your desire to stop women from choosing to wear the burqa!

Your fantasies about what I actually think you can keep to yourself - my posts are pretty clear on the subject. Just see the link above.



Cheers,

Shafique

^^ You really should try smiling so now and then, you seem angry all the time.



Follow me:

we in the free world see sign of oppression and we don't like it so if you don't like it get back to where u came from if a white person goes to a cult state/country one would follow local laws and customs and if you think this is Islam phobia you need to get over it because the free world has woken up and not going to tolerate minority bullies and they will follow local laws or first flight back to where they came from

Shaf, you can hardly compare wearing high heels to wearing a burka. Do men force their wives and daughters to wear high heels before going out in public, lest they be considered inappropriately dressed to be around others, especially the opposite se.x? If wearing a burka isn't in the Quran, how do women justify completely covering themselves? If it is cultural, what benefit is there to covering their face in a culture where every other woman (besides those in the same small sub-group) in society shows her face in public?

kanelli wrote:Shaf, you can hardly compare wearing high heels to wearing a burka.

I can, and I do.

As I said, I'd oppose anyone calling for the banning of high heels because they thought it was oppressive and a form of mild torture to women.
(And high heels can cause real harm - and not just from the obvious falling over when on uneven ground or due to a bevvy too much: http://www.livescience.com/18690-high-h ... amage.html .. so they do cause harm, and arguably more harm than a face covering.)

Your question about why women choose to cover their faces has been covered in articles posted which are written by women, and give their reasons for choosing to cover.

Very few in my family wear the full veil - but some have chosen this and we respect their decision. One of them happens to be a white and French - she is married to my first cousin. She is also a convert and wasn't forced by her husband or her in laws to wear the veil (no one else in the immediate family wears it). She is a working woman and plays a full part in society (they live in the UK, btw).

Hence, I'm pro-choice on this matter.

Cheers,

Shafique

Shaf, you know full well that it is illogical to compare the two. Clearly your sister-in-law has received a bad education on Islam if she thinks that covering her face is required of her according to Islam. Has anyone cleared this up for her?

European - I think comb-overs are ridiculous and a complete joke in this day and age, and in whatever country. It is certainly a crime against fashion.

I think the sign of a tolerant society is to protect the rights of those who choose to dress, act, worship as they see fit.

This article from a couple of years back has British women explaining why they choose to wear the veil:

http://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/bey ... 32864.html

Just causing offence is not enough - that is why eh brought up a case from a couple of years ago to make his case for his calls for a ban.

The article above ends with a statement I totally agree with:

Whether one agrees with the choice London Muslims make (when they do choose) to cover their faces or not is irrelevant; protecting the freedom to allow that choice is a basic tenet of British life.

(Kanelli - I don't agree it is ridiculous. I'm quite sure that high heels cause more actual harm to women than face veils in Europe do. My sister-in-law would have to answer as to whether she feels her education and choice is based on proper advice or not. I think your prior view may be colouring your response. )

Cheers,

Shafique

I dont think women should wear the full covering or burka.
Makes them appear like stupid non-entities, whatever their religious beliefs.

I myself dont know how to act in the presence of a burka-clad woman with a full face covering or veil. Where does one look when talking to her?

I remember a funny scene of one night when walking along a dark and empty street, I came across this fully burka-clad woman with a veil in a hot and passionate kissing/embrace (heavy petting session ) with a young man!
You could have knocked me down with a feather then
Perhaps thats one good use the burka can be put to! Hiding your identity when having a bit of an illicit frolic

I believe the full veil should be worn by ugly women. Pakistani women should be forced to wear it whatever the circumstances.

Shaf, it is a fact that women are not told that they must wear high heels in public or else they are dressed inappropriately. That is not the case with a burka. Women are brainwashed that they are being immodest towards god and their families if they don't cover their faces in public. Shaf, can you quote anything from the Quran or Hadith that says that Muslim women should completely cover their faces? I seem to recall discussing with you before and you saying it was a cultural thing more than a religious thing. Now it seems you are claiming it is a valid interpretation of Islam.

Hell hath no fury like a woman scored, eh Frequentflier?

Yes Kanelli

kanelli wrote:I seem to recall discussing with you before and you saying it was a cultural thing more than a religious thing. Now it seems you are claiming it is a valid interpretation of Islam.

It still is a cultural thing - if you read the article I linked to above it says so. It also has a number of British Muslim women explaining why they choose to wear the veil. They don't sound brainwashed to me.

My position hasn't changed from the posts from two years ago - and unless I'm mistaken, I haven't actually said anything about Islam, Quran or Hadith in this thread to contradict myself either.

I remain pro-choice. And I still maintain that the British thing to do is to support this choice.

(Oh, and I'd argue that peer pressure to wear high heels is a form of coercion - and does still cause more harm than a veil.)

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:It still is a cultural thing

So did your French sister-in-law convert to a culture or religion?

Or are you saying wearing a bumble bee suit is "cultural" for the French?

shafique wrote:Tell me you have more than the one case from a few years ago to back up your desire to stop women from choosing to wear the burqa!

Wow, what a brilliant argument.

I bet you're saying that for every small town without a recorded murder in their town's history where murder is criminalized.

"Tell me, how many murder cases has Mayberry experienced for you to have murder criminalized?"

Shaf, you're still illogically comparing apples to oranges.

Did your sister-in-law convert from French into Mauritanian/British? How would that influence her to cover her face? If she is using Islam as the justification, and the Quran and Hadith say nothing about covering the face, she has the wrong interpretation of Islam and someone needs to speak to her. I'm not sure why your brother is ok with her hiding her face in public, especially when it is un-Islamic and goes against her French culture and Mauritanian/British culture.

Here let me quote from the article - it some people may not wish to click through and read it:

Does she feel it might be perceived as such? "No woman I know who wears a niqab is doing it to make a huge point. It's a personal, spiritual conviction. And I know that the niqab is a virtuous option and it is not obligatory."

Barktulla, an Arabic studies lecturer, says that taking up the veil simply allows her to feel closer to God. "It doesn't contradict my being British either," she insists. "I love this country — it's my home. Mine and my husband's parents come from India but it's alien to us.

People ask whether we wouldn't be better off living in an Islamic country' but it's only because we're brown-skinned and not part of the indigenous population. What would you say to the white English convert whose family has been here for centuries? Where would they go?"

Modesty in Islam is key for both men and women. But most Islamic scholars agree that the adoption of the full-face veil among Muslim women is more to do with culture than religion....

So for women choosing to wear the face veil, knowing it is an option, but seeing it as a virtuous thing for them - why would I want to stop them? It is a cultural issue more than a religious one - so say the scholars - but that still doesn't mean we should ban it.

I asked initially in this thread - what do people fear or are threatened by this cloth. I understand kanellis view that the women are oppressed and brainwashed, and therefore she isn't frightened by the cloth, but I don't think that eh's concern is for the Muslim women. I could be wrong - hence why I asked him what he finds threatening by it.

But it's worth repeating the article, and my, main point:

Whether one agrees with the choice London Muslims make (when they do choose) to cover their faces or not is irrelevant; protecting the freedom to allow that choice is a basic tenet of British life.

It's very un-British to go round banning people's choice of clothing.

Cheers,
Shafique

--- Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:59 pm ---

kanelli wrote:Did your sister-in-law convert from French into Mauritanian/British?

She converted to Islam in France. She moved to England, met and married my cousin here. She wore the veil before marriage and before meeting her husband to be.

(My cousin is also British, his parents immigrated to the UK back when Mauritius was still a British colony.)

See extract above - I would say my sis-in-law has similar reasons for her choice to wear the veil. I can't really say for certain, I haven't discussed it with her. All I can say is that no one in her in-laws household and immediate family wear the veil.

Cheers,

Shafique

shafique wrote:but I don't think that rayznack's concern is for the Muslim women.

I actually explain the reason I'm against wearing the burqa/niqab in two posts in this thread.

Are you as poor a reader as you are in constructing a logical argument?

Apparently, yes.

shafique wrote:but I don't think

Bravo. The first factually accurate post you've made in your entire life.

shafique wrote:I wonder what it is about a piece of cloth a woman chooses to wear that frightens/threatens young eh?

shafique wrote:Tell me you have more than the one case from a few years ago to back up your desire to stop women from choosing to wear the burqa!

So far, nothing.

And thanks for proving yet again, that selective quotes and spin is all you seem to have.

At least kanelli is clear that she has the womens' interests at heart and stems from a belief they are brainwashed into wearing the veil. I actually have trouble believing women would choose to wear high heels without being brainwashed into thinking it is a good idea (seriously) - but that's just me. (And yes, Muslim women do choose to wear high heels!)

Cheers,
Shafique

Don't men want to feel closer to god too? If women covering their faces brings them closer, wouldn't that work for men too?

Muslim scholars should spend more time denouncing the veil than justifying its use and speaking out of both sides of their mouths - that women feel it brings them closer to god, and that it is primarily cultural and not religious. Where would women get the idea that covering their faces in public brings them closer to god if there are no verses from the Quran or Hadith to support that? If it is cultural, where does it originate from?

For me this is a feminist issue, and I am convinced that if women look at what the Quran says and the historical reasons why the veil was worn, they too will come to the conclusion that covering one's face in public does not make one more virtuous or closer to god.

New converts to any religion tend to be a bit over-zealous though, so perhaps this is the case with your cousin's wife. Maybe she's trying to be a better Muslim convert than natural-born Muslim women and falsely views hiding her face in public as one way to do that.

I actually have the interests of everyone in mind if you were able to read/understand my posts.

shafique wrote:Tell me you have more than the one case from a few years ago to back up your desire to stop women from choosing to wear the burqa!

Does a small town need to have more than one murder case before banning murder? Why?

I'm curious to hear your brilliant logic since you seemed to have skipped over my response the last time.

shafique wrote:And thanks for proving yet again, that selective quotes and spin is all you seem to have

That's opposed to special pleading, tu quoque, strawmen, circular reasoning, red herrings, etc., etc.

shafique wrote:I actually have trouble believing women would choose to wear high heels without being brainwashed into thinking it is a good idea (seriously) - but that's just me. (And yes, Muslim women do choose to wear high heels!)

Great, your red herring is irrelevant to the thread; if you want to talk about peer pressure to wear head covering or high heels, then take it to another thread.

Otherwise, address the OP and video where someone in a niqab/burka claimed her sister, not her, had been pulled over by the police. Her major fault was that she changed her story after it was too late.

I honestly don't know the reason why you're incapable of basic reading comprehension; is it bad education or were you raised to not think abstractly/conceptually?

Why is it you're accused by more than one individual of relying on fallacies in your arguments - on more than one forum!?

Tell me you have more than the one case from a few years ago to back up your desire to stop women from choosing to wear the burqa!

It appears the answer is 'no'.

Thanks for demonstrating whataboutery arguments eh,- most fascinating.

I'm sticking the British line on this point though:

Whether one agrees with the choice London Muslims make (when they do choose) to cover their faces or not is irrelevant; protecting the freedom to allow that choice is a basic tenet of British life.

Kanelli - agree that some converts can be over zealous. But note that many women are choosing to wear the veil who aren't converts and who are under no pressure. It is even now a growing trend in Mauritius where Muslim women didn't wear veils 20 years ago - but now many young women are choosing the veil.

Oh, and yes there is the male equivalent . Look out for the long beards and short trousers look. (seriously)

However, I stil maintain that if a person chooses that look - she should be allowed to do so. I totally agree that women shouldn't be forced to cover up against their will, and certainly shouldn't be told that Islam forces this on them - but that is not the same as advocating it should be banned.

Cheers,
Shafique