Britishness - Some Facts

Topic locked
  • Reply
Britishness - some facts Jul 04, 2012
The following results are not a surprise to me - indeed I said as much in earlier discussions where I maintained that British values had more to fear from the feral underclass in the UK than from migrants.

Good to see that research backs this up.

This contrasts with the myths that EDL and BNP supporters like to trot out about minorities not integrating etc. (And not to forget other fantasies such 'muslamic rayguns' etc )

Minorities 'feel more British'
(UKPA) – 4 days ago

Ethnic minorities living in the UK feel more British than their white counterparts, new research has revealed.

Muslims are the most likely of all groups to identify with the concept of "Britishness", the Institute for Social and Economic Research study found.

The report's authors say the results rubbish suggestions that ethnic groups are unwilling or unable to integrate into British society and show that fears over the negative impacts of immigration on cultural identity are considerably overstated.
The study, named Understanding Society, looked at the socio-economic circumstances of people living in 40,000 UK households.

Occupants were asked a series of questions, including how important on a scale of one to 10, being British was to them.
Pakistanis scored the highest with an average of 7.76 - despite common presumptions that they associate more strongly with their own national identity than to where they are living now.

Bangladeshi and Indian groups came second and third respectively, while the white population scored the lowest with an average of 6.58.

The study also found that identification with Britishness is higher among the children and grandchildren of migrants.
The research will be presented next week at the Economic and Social Research Council Research Methods Festival by Dr Alita Nandi.

She said: "Our research shows that people we might assume would feel very British, in fact do not - while others who we might assume would not associate themselves with feelings of Britishness, in fact do."
https://www.iser.essex.ac.uk/
(Institute for Social and Economic Research)

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpres ... 035705891A

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Britishness - Some Facts Jul 04, 2012
The article doesn't seem to give a working definition of what being "British" actually entails.

So, let's test the article's finding.

74% of the general British public hold favorable views on Jews; while only 32% of an unnamed minority share these feelings.

59% of the general public blame (non-Western) intolerance for the cartoon fiasco of 2005; while 9% of an unnamed minority similarly blame (non-Western) intolerance; fully 73% blame Western disrespect compared with 19% of the general public.

I don't have data for the general public's belief regarding 9/11 conspiracy theories, but a certain minority, by 56%-17%, believe Arabs did not carry out the attacks - far higher than for certain minorities in neighboring France, Germany and Spain, where opinion is at least evenly divided.

Lastly, 30% of the general British public ascribe three or more negative traits to a certain religious group while 69% of the unnamed minority ascribe three or more negative traits to unbelievers.

Certainly these are interesting statistics. It certainly puts the above report in a tail spin; especially since it's doubtful the general public's understanding of the term "British" is completely different from the unnamed minority's.
rayznack
Dubai Expat Helper
User avatar
Posts: 610
Location: inside

  • Reply
Re: Britishness - Some Facts Jul 04, 2012
Pakistanis scored the highest with an average of 7.76 - despite common presumptions that they associate more strongly with their own national identity than to where they are living now.
white population scored the lowest with an average of 6.58.

Muslims are the most likely of all groups to identify with the concept of "Britishness"


No spin, no hype, just the facts.

And let's recall Muslims are also less likely to condone violence against civilians:
dubai-politics-talk/poll-muslims-less-likely-justify-violence-t47068.html

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Britishness - Some Facts Jul 04, 2012
Pakistanis scored the highest with an average of 7.76 - despite common presumptions that they associate more strongly with their own national identity than to where they are living now.


Pakistanis (and others) associate more strongly with their religion than their country.

81% of British Muslims identify with their religion first and 7% with their country; compared to 24% of British Christians who identify with their religion first and 59% with their country.

http://pewglobal.org/files/pdf/254.pdf

A 2009 survey of the attitudes of British Muslims found 77% said they identified "very strongly" with the UK, compared to 50% of the general public.[10] However, only 7% of Muslims in Britain think of themselves as British first, with 81% thinking of themselves as Muslim first.[11] 40% of British Muslims want Sharia in the UK,[12] and 28% of British Muslims want Britain to be an Islamic state.[13]... A survey of young British muslims revealed that there has been a significant rise in Islamic fundamentalism amongst the younger generation. 36% of 16-24 year olds believe if a Muslim converts to another religion they should be punished by death, compared to 19% of 55+ year old muslims, 13% of 16-24 year olds admire organisations like Al-Quaeda compared to 3% of 55+ year olds. 61% of the questioned agree that homosexuality should be illegal, and 31 % agree that Muslim conversion should be forbidden and punishable by death.[15] Majority of British Muslim have strongly conservative views on moral issues such as extra-marital sex.[16] They differ dramatically from the views held by the rest of the British population.[10] 68% of British Muslims support the arrest and prosecution of anyone who insults Islam.[17]


Is this what feeling British means?
rayznack
Dubai Expat Helper
User avatar
Posts: 610
Location: inside

  • Reply
Re: Britishness - Some Facts Jul 04, 2012
Surely the question should be why Pakistani, Bangladeshi and Indian descended Britons are ahead of the white Britons?

The data is very credible, 40,000 surveyed - with "1000 adults from each of the following ethnic groups: Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Caribbean and African"


This quote is from the ISER site linked to in the article - and makes an interesting observation.:
“Many people seem to manage dual identities, and it’s interesting to note that in all the ethnic groups we looked at British identity increases from generation to generation, while within the majority white population many maintain strong non-British identities, such as Scots or Welsh.”


But when it comes to condoning violence, which is after all what really matters when examining hype about minorities being a threat, we again find that Muslims are less likely to justify it than say American Christians:
58% of American Christians justified killing civilians for some reason, same question was asked to American Muslims and only 21% justified killing of civilians.
(see thread linked to above)

Facts vs hype. Yet again, facts win. ;)

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Britishness - some facts Jul 04, 2012
Surely the question should be why Pakistani, Bangladeshi and Indian descended Britons are ahead of the white Britons?


It's a good question why 81% identify with religious affiliation first and being British second.

It would look like they are way ahead of white Britons who see themselves as British first and identify with religious affiliation second.

shafique wrote:But when it comes to condoning violence, which is after all what really matters when examining hype about minorities being a threat, we again find that Muslims are less likely to justify it than say American Christians:


I thought we were talking about being British? How does your red herring have any relevance in this thread?

If you want to talk about violence, then discuss the Brits who support killing apostates or how well certain sub-groups of Britons are integrated into Britain's prison population (in fact, well over represented than their general population).
rayznack
Dubai Expat Helper
User avatar
Posts: 610
Location: inside

  • Reply
Re: Britishness - Some Facts Jul 04, 2012
I suggest you compare the results and numbers polled - and then take it up with the researchers. (My quick review is that the Pew research was done 6 years ago and interviewed 412 Muslims in the UK. This latest survey is way more representative.. and also more up to date.)

Facts rarely agree with your myths do they - especially the ones relating to violence! Muslims are less likely to condone violence - so say the surveys.

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Britishness - Some Facts Jul 04, 2012
Case of the midnight munchies shaf ?
desertdudeshj
UAE, Dubai Forums Lord of the posts
User avatar
Posts: 6258

  • Reply
Re: Britishness - some facts Jul 04, 2012
The one using red herrings should look in the mirror to see a troll.

Empty rhetoric isn't fooling anyone. Better luck next time. In the future, just make it clear you don't want opposing facts and viewpoints; and that your thread is for propagandist purposes only.
rayznack
Dubai Expat Helper
User avatar
Posts: 610
Location: inside

  • Reply
Re: Britishness - Some Facts Jul 04, 2012
Thanks for posting eh - I refer you to my previous post - the one with the numbers in, and the original one with the quotes from the latest survey.

No red herrings, just facts.

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Britishness - Some Facts Jul 05, 2012
shafique wrote:No red herrings, just facts.


You apparently don't know what a red herring is. I'll be happy to provide you an example of one:

shafique wrote:But when it comes to condoning violence, which is after all what really matters when examining hype about minorities being a threat, we again find that Muslims are less likely to justify it than say American Christians:


Since the topic is on Britons feeling Britishness, your off-topic comment is a red herring.

If you want to talk about violence, then give us the % of Britons who support death for apostasy and other acts of violence (stoning, amputations, lashing, etc).

You can cement your argument with cold hard stats relating to violent crime in Britain - there should at least be a correlation between whites and violent crime if you truly believe your claims.

I expect you to provide statistics showing whites are more likely to justify violence against others for differences in belief, greater intolerance and supremacist beliefs if you want to be taken seriously.
rayznack
Dubai Expat Helper
User avatar
Posts: 610
Location: inside

  • Reply
Re: Britishness - Some Facts Jul 05, 2012
Thank you for your views, again.

I personally have no reason to doubt the findings of the latest survey of 40,000 people, including 1000 each of the minorities listed. I don't doubt the earlier surveys showing Muslims being less likely to condone violence either.

I suggest you take up your doubts with the researchers. I'll stick to the facts.

Muslims are the most likely of all groups to identify with the concept of "Britishness"


Clear, hype-free and unambiguous.

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Britishness - Some Facts Jul 05, 2012
Excellent OP Shaf

I hope the poor Britons of Pakistani descent will have some little respite from the non-stop racism and harassment that they are subjected to in Britain now, with the findings in this rather credible report. At least I hope so. 8)

Being ostracised because one looks Pakistani cant be a very good feeling. No fault of theirs now is it? :o

I also dont find anything wrong with your reference to a red herring.
Quite appropriately used I think :?
Frequentflier
Dubai forums Addict
User avatar
Posts: 230
Location: Area 51

  • Reply
Re: Britishness - Some Facts Jul 05, 2012
The report's authors say the results rubbish suggestions that ethnic groups are unwilling or unable to integrate into British society and show that fears over the negative impacts of immigration on cultural identity are considerably overstated.


The researchers actually did go out and interview 40,000 people - and put to the test whether my view expressed last year was correct (that immigrants aren't a threat to Britishness) or whether the vocal few were correct in their xenophobia.

The results are in. There seems to be a lot of sour grapes out there as a result. ;)

"Our research shows that people we might assume would feel very British, in fact do not - while others who we might assume would not associate themselves with feelings of Britishness, in fact do."

Indeed.

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Britishness - Some Facts Jul 05, 2012
LOL (European) - you're putting the cart before the horse.

The report was not compiled for the Pakistani results - the survey was of 40,000 Britons, of which 1,000 each were Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Indian, etc ..

The survey's results just happen to confirm what I said last year (correction in 2010) - I based my opinion on personal experience. I am sure that you think you are right - and that may just be that you are interacting with a given subset of society, OR you are making the assumptions that the report says aren't backed up by reality.

My comments about the descendants of immigrants being more 'British' than the 'feral underclass' were made in a thread about the racial make up of Britons in the future:

dubai-chat/white-brits-before-long-minority-the-t44214.html

The survey's results just happen to prove my observation to be correct.

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Britishness - Some Facts Jul 05, 2012
jackpott wrote:Fact is, freedom of expression is a core British value.


But it has nothing to do with feeling "Britishness" - a majority of those most British people polled want critics of religion imprisoned.

shafique wrote:whether the vocal few were correct in their xenophobia.


True xenophobia doesn't discriminate.

Strange that both you and the authors of the poll went out of their way to discuss how Pakistanis have specifically been accused of not integrating properly.

Britain has many ethnic and immigrant populations - Chinese, Koreans, Sikhs, Hindus and so on. But it seems the vast majority of your "xenophobic" fellow citizens never say a critical word against these groups.

I thought they were xenophobic? Or is it their views are actually based on more than "irrational fear of the other" as you'd be happy to portray them as?

As usual, you ignore countervailing evidence and dismiss critics of your flimsy fantasies as "xenophobes".

To actually admit there are rational objections regarding this topic means you'd have to do more than name call and put your head in the sand when confronted with opposing facts and arguments.
rayznack
Dubai Expat Helper
User avatar
Posts: 610
Location: inside

  • Reply
Re: Britishness - Some Facts Jul 05, 2012
shafique wrote:The data is very credible, 40,000 surveyed - with "1000 adults from each of the following ethnic groups: Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Caribbean and African"


Facts will undo your rants every time.

Pakistanis scored the highest with an average of 7.76 - despite common presumptions that they associate more strongly with their own national identity than to where they are living now.


Stating which group came out the highest is called reporting the findings.

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Britishness - Some Facts Jul 05, 2012
rayznack wrote:As usual, you ignore countervailing evidence and dismiss critics of your flimsy fantasies as "xenophobes".

To actually admit there are rational objections regarding this topic means you'd have to do more than name call and put your head in the sand when confronted with opposing facts and arguments.


As usual, you don't disappoint.

shafique wrote:Facts will undo your rants every time.


Not the facts you ignore out of your inability to argue on the basis of logic.
rayznack
Dubai Expat Helper
User avatar
Posts: 610
Location: inside

  • Reply
Re: Britishness - Some Facts Jul 05, 2012
Thanks for your perspective.

I'll stick to the facts about the results of the 40,000 strong survey and see no need to encourage your strawmen arguments.

Cheers,

Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Britishness - Some Facts Jul 05, 2012
Which of my arguments are a "strawman"?
rayznack
Dubai Expat Helper
User avatar
Posts: 610
Location: inside

  • Reply
Re: Britishness - Some Facts Jul 05, 2012
Nice try. ;) Almost had me there.

This thread is about a very credible survey of 40,000 Britons which included 1000 each from a range of minorities and reported that the Muslim Britons were the most British from all the ethnic groups - more than the White Britons. Earlier surveys from 6 years back covered fewer Brits, and was from 6 years ago.

Anything other than that, please start a new thread.

Cheers,

Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Britishness - Some Facts Jul 05, 2012
I am not surprized at all 'coz that it looks like that the artificial "natinality" was invened for migrants only. Generational inhabitant of the UK as a rule identifies him or herself as Englishman, Welshman or Scot.

"Britishness" doesn't mean anything.
Red Chief
Dubai forums GURU
User avatar
Posts: 2256

  • Reply
Re: Britishness - Some Facts Jul 06, 2012
^Interesting view.

Most of the population do consider it to have meaning though - it's just that within the population some have higher regard for it than others. After all, the survey shows that whilst the Pakistani Brits scored 7.76, the white Britons still gave an average score of 6.58 (out of 10).

This is quite high for something you say 'doesn't mean anything'. Perhaps it is an assumption that you are making that is faulty?

'Great Britain', Britishness etc are all concepts that do have meaning and do have a history. I'm sure you can look it up and see whether your opinion that it was invented for migrants stands up to reality (and you'll see that only a minority don't consider themselves British at all):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britishness

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Britishness - Some Facts Jul 06, 2012
Another question would be - if you were a white British citizen, why would you consider yourself less British than your non-white fellow citizens?

Anyway - as the OP says:
Pakistanis scored the highest with an average of 7.76 - despite common presumptions that they associate more strongly with their own national identity than to where they are living now.


Being British does not mean you are ashamed or not proud of your heritage. Michael Portillo is quite British and is also proud of his Spanish heritage, for example, and the same applies to the other British people interviewed. Ed Miliband (to take a labour example) is the son of Polish immigrants - and yet is both British and proud of his heritage.

There's more than a whiff of racism when people are offended or question whether non-white Britons are truly British.

It's an understandable reaction though - when assumptions meet reality, people tend to lash out and be irrational.

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Britishness - Some Facts Jul 06, 2012
Yes, well 'your guess' is a good example of what the article says is a 'common presumption' that may or may not be true.

Unless your a Native American - all North Americans are ultimately from somewhere else - and pretty much all will say they are from the States or Canada. But it appears you'd ask all the one's who 'look foreign' where they were 'really from'. Interesting that.

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Britishness - Some Facts Jul 06, 2012
As I said, that is a presumption on your part - it may or may not be true. All North Americans are from somewhere else - just like Ed Miliband and Michael Portillo in the UK are children of immigrants.

Your issue seems to be one of skin colour - and only questioning those who don't fit your idea of 'British' or 'Canadian' etc.

There is another explanation - and that is that the Canadian, US or British citizens who 'look different' ARE actually now Canadian, US and British. You thinking otherwise speaks more about you than them, I'd say.

Cheers,

Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Britishness - Some Facts Jul 06, 2012
I dont understand why it should be presumed that one is "ashamed" to be from somewhere?

If a Jordanian migrates to the US for example, then he obviously prefers the US over Jordan. If the US Govt. has legally allowed him to be a citizen of that country, then he has got the right to say that he is a US citizen, particularly if he is well settled and happy in his surroundings and has no intention of moving back to Jordan.

Humans and animals have been migrating for millenia all over the globe. No one can stop them.
Frequentflier
Dubai forums Addict
User avatar
Posts: 230
Location: Area 51

  • Reply
Re: Britishness - Some Facts Jul 06, 2012
Racism is rather a sad thing.

If he had said he was from Jordan he would be accused of not integrating! A catch 22 situation.

I am not that intimate with any Emiratis so I dont know if they are or not. Thats another story.
Frequentflier
Dubai forums Addict
User avatar
Posts: 230
Location: Area 51

  • Reply
Re: Britishness - Some Facts Jul 06, 2012
European - thanks for sharing your thoughts. It perhaps explains your reaction to the facts in the OP. It is your perogative to feel sorry for the people and to disagree with what their answers are. I personally feel sorry for you.

I personally have come across many Irish Americans, Swedish Americans, Italian Americans, Pakistani Americans, Indian Americans (I've worked for a few American companies) and they'd all say they were from America when asked where they were from.

As for the information in the survey in the OP - the surprising thing for me was not that the non-White Brits were proud to be British, but rather that the white Brits were less proud.

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Britishness - Some Facts Jul 06, 2012
shafique wrote:and they'd all say they were from America when asked where they were from.
Exactly.
Why should it be anyone's business to say "He was actually Egyptian, but just pretending to be American." He was actually being American and proud of it most probably. And that is how it should be if you adopt another country.
Frequentflier
Dubai forums Addict
User avatar
Posts: 230
Location: Area 51

posting in Dubai Politics TalkForum Rules

Return to Dubai Politics Talk


  • Related topics
    Replies
    Last post
cron