Dubai Forums Dubai Discussions Dubai General Chat

Linda sums it up well....

An extremist is like Bill Grahm... Or Pat Robertson... or GB...

samy_solo wrote:

kanelli wrote:

Liban wrote:What is created by Western "technology" is OK to use for the following reason. The Arabs launched the western development movement back from the time of the rennaissance, so no, it is not being a hypocrite.

Very humourous. I suppose there has to be an excuse for Arabs who hate the West to continue to suck up Western culture and buy and use Western-made products and technology.

Hey, we gave you 'westerners' jobs, business opportunities, and a safe haven to live in!

Funny, all you low life racist have the audacity to insult us in our own country! Your kind will simply will not learn - Don't bite the hand that Feeds You. And don't think you’re scarce; in fact many of you are very disposable! If you have a problem with my country, my religion, or my other fellow Arabs just do yourself a favor and get the hell out!

Thousand just like you are waiting in line to have the opportunity to SERVE us!

Bothers you what I'm saying huh, poor thing - Not used to Arab speaking to you this way huh. Get one thing in your thick head - your kind gave us nothing, we ever we have he Bought from you so get over your colonial attitude.

To others reading my comments, if you respect our traditions, culture, and way of life we have absolutely no problems or issues with you – just please do not try to impose what you view as ‘western values’ in our country as we do not share the same principles – that’s doesn’t mean we can’t respect each other, In fact we always welcome those who come to us in respect.

well westerners are here for money and dont give a damn on ur culture. As long as they are getting money and enuf to retire they wont even touch the dates and camels $hit and no no no not even the donkey. Arab nation was at its peak at 15th century. Now it's even worse than those daays - arabs tose days welcomed foreigners, were hard working & modest most of em. Now from gulf to iraq all are praying to God to send a messiah so they can unite arabs under one banner....so keep praying. meanwhile pay us good so we can work hard o sell u good weapons and toys.

I'm ecstatic we're actually having a discussion without somebody trying to turn it into a flame war. Am I in the same forum?

(Edit: Damn ..... Sniper has gotten online .... )

Unfortunately, this is happening on both sides. For example, you have religious clerics like Abu Hamza saying that Islam should take over the West, and you have the West trying to force democracy on countries that aren't ready for it. Both are unfair and unrealistic.

Hmmm. Everybody seems to be reading that "7Days" issue.

1-The power of which the two parties (East/West ...etc) are not equal or even comparable. The West owns and controls most of the media/military/economy/policy ...etc. The East (And specially muslim countries) own none of that. So it wouldn't be fair to presume the knowledge of what a muslim/eastern would feel, because you weren't subjected to the same "campaign".

2-Abu Hamza is nothing but one mere individual with extreme views. He only represents himself, and not a wide array of muslim sectors, that's for sure.

However western Governments/scholars/humanists/historians/media outlets, are generally -one way or another- utilized in the enforcement of that "Global" (when it's really western, not global) set of "values" that are deemed -wrongfully- uniquely western.

Every civilization has it's own unique way of expressing Love, intimacy, human life value, freedom. That way needn't resemble a model that should be certified by the West to attain credibility.

To label the "Other" as one mass of seeving fanaticsm is so unjust and ignorant.

The West's "throat shoving" is by no means exclusive to democracy ...... I'm at a loss to where to start concerning this. I mean I wish that it had only been enforcing democracy in countries which the West itself has nurtured the dictators.... It's much much more than that.

Let's just say that a prime example is you labelling Liban an extremist because he expressed an opposing view (outside of the realm of western-western arguement). You're not alone, and it's not your fault. Everybody where you come from does the same, individuals and enterprises....

Do you realize the amount of pressure when 20% of the World (Muslims) are all labelled extremists because of views that do not necessarily confirm with the Western experience and historical course? Need muslims walk that same path? I'm filled with incomprehension as to the unspoken policies/actions taken by our governments and elites.

If someone says that the West should fall and the Arab would should rise to overcome their oppressors - you don't consider that extreme?

Linda, I feel that you spend most of your time defending the plight of the Arab world, and don't often try to give a balanced view. Do you have any insight into or understanding of the West's behaviour?

For example, it is wrong to force democracy, but once you have lived in a democratic political system, would you really want to give it up? Should Africa, Asia, and the Middle East have some countries that suffer under the crushing rule of dictators? It is up to the people of those countries to free themselves, but can't you see why some Western countries would support the overthrowing of dictatorships? This is clear as day to me - and I can admit that meddling would be wrong, no matter how tempting it may be.

I'd like propose that big business is more of an evil than just naming Western countries as tyrants. The West is practically run by big business and its quest for wealth and expansion.

kanelli wrote:If someone says that the West should fall and the Arab would should rise to overcome their oppressors - you don't consider that extreme?

Linda, I feel that you spend most of your time defending the plight of the Arab world, and don't often try to give a balanced view. Do you have any insight into or understanding of the West's behaviour?

For example, it is wrong to force democracy, but once you have lived in a democratic political system, would you really want to give it up? Should Africa, Asia, and the Middle East have some countries that suffer under the crushing rule of dictators? It is up to the people of those countries to free themselves, but can't you see why some Western countries would support the overthrowing of dictatorships? This is clear as day to me - and I can admit that meddling would be wrong, no matter how tempting it may be.

I'd like propose that big business is more of an evil than just naming Western countries as tyrants. The West is practically run by big business and its quest for wealth and expansion.

well said. Linda's love for the handsome Syrian guy had turned her blind. kekeke . I am jking. Linda u have to see the negatives of Liban's statements. He is hypocritical MOSt of da times.

Liban wrote:An extremist is like Bill Grahm... Or Pat Robertson... or GB...

Yes, to me they are extremists. Doesn't let you off the hook though

If someone says that the West should fall and the Arab would should rise to overcome their oppressors - you don't consider that extreme?

No. I'm sure that Indians had the same sentiments concerning the Brits. French had the same concerning the Germans (in WW2)...etc. Wanting an ill fate to your oppressor is normal human behaviour. WHat's so extreme about it?

I always try to give other examples so you can get an unbiased view at things. If it were Zimbabwe oppressing Ghana, and you met a guy from Ghana who wished that Zimbabwe would fall, you'd understand. Why not if it has to do with the West? Because you're Western? Dissociate yourself from your background so you can see more clearly.

And by the way, when some Arabs say "The West", they say it casually, they don't really mean EVERY country in Europe/North America. I haven't met an Arab which has a beef with Germany, or Belgium, or Canada ...etc.

I mean Bin Laden, of all people, just shut up about Spain as soon as it removed it's forces from Iraq. The worries these people have are specific, not just general anger and extremism like our media spins it.

Linda, I feel that you spend most of your time defending the plight of the Arab world, and don't often try to give a balanced view. Do you have any insight into or understanding of the West's behaviour?

Actually I always try to give a balanced view. My intention is not to defend the Arabs or Attack the West. I have critisized Arabs/Muslims on this forum quite a few times. But also I'm a self-critique, and despise the "herd" mentality. If I see anything wrong with anything, I try to express it.

Since most of the threads occuring here are turning into an East vs. West battle, then I judge by the points mentioned, but I do not take sides.

And yes, I do have a pretty good insight of the "West's" behaviour. It's funny that you mention The "West" since westerners themselves rarely use that word. Most of the deaths/wars have occured between Western countries themselves. There is no West. The cronies in Washington (and elsewhere) try to imply that there is one "front" called the West to rally the people ...etc. I know that a lot of Brits can just love Arabs as opposed to Germans. I know that the Dutch seem to like dark-skinned immigrants from the Dutch Antilles more than the French ...etc.

I use the term casually so people would get what I'm saying.

For example, it is wrong to force democracy, but once you have lived in a democratic political system, would you really want to give it up? Should Africa, Asia, and the Middle East have some countries that suffer under the crushing rule of dictators? It is up to the people of those countries to free themselves, but can't you see why some Western countries would support the overthrowing of dictatorships? This is clear as day to me - and I can admit that meddling would be wrong, no matter how tempting it may be.

Interesting, you really seem unaware of the long bitter history between Muslims Countries and European (and later the US) countries ....

It is not limited to "demcracy" spreading. Actually it's a very small part of it.

Lemme sum it up. Who are WE to be the Arabs' NANNY? WE do not have any cridibility. The French/Brits were racist/colonial occupiers less than 50 years ago. WE are not TRUSTED in this region of the world.

Also considering our economic priorities and historical past, you'd be really naive to think that any country with a capitalist/cosnumerist economy would just rush to some desert to "free" the people.

Yes, our media and education convinces us that we have always been (and still are) the "good" force in this world. But our history (and current policies) are VERY FAR from that. The rest of the world aren't supposed to have the same conceptions/mis-conceptions WE have about ourselves...

It's day-clear to me that there are other "agendas" to be enforced after the dictators are removed. That's the way we are. We are not altruistic ... we go for our own benefit, which is fine, but lets not pretend otherwise. Or else it becomes a charade. Having said that, it is understandable why Arabs/Muslims are skeptical of the western role.

Europe was the one that disintegrated the Islamic "empire" in the first place, and created artificial borders and passed out entire countries in posh meetings in Paris and London, not to mention supporting dictators, creating Israel...etc. How do you expect these people to trust anything a successor government would do?

Just a little piece of info very little people know (Arabs or westerners), The Arab governments post-colonialism, in the late forties and early fifties, were pretty much Pro-USA, since it was a country with no colonial past, and of which was colonized itself. Arab leaders used to praise the US system and wish for a transformation similar to it. But 50 years of complete idiocy/corporate interest/special lobby influence has made those people hate the US.

Linda_Stuiv wrote:

For example, it is wrong to force democracy, but once you have lived in a democratic political system, would you really want to give it up? Should Africa, Asia, and the Middle East have some countries that suffer under the crushing rule of dictators? It is up to the people of those countries to free themselves, but can't you see why some Western countries would support the overthrowing of dictatorships? This is clear as day to me - and I can admit that meddling would be wrong, no matter how tempting it may be.

Interesting, you really seem unaware of the long bitter history between Muslims Countries and European (and later the US) countries ....

It is not limited to "demcracy" spreading. Actually it's a very small part of it.

Lemme sum it up. Who are WE to be the Arabs' NANNY? WE do not have any cridibility. The French/Brits were racist/colonial occupiers less than 50 years ago. WE are not TRUSTED in this region of the world.

Also considering our economic priorities and historical past, you'd be really naive to think that any country with a capitalist/cosnumerist economy would just rush to some desert to "free" the people.

Yes, our media and education convinces us that we have always been (and still are) the "good" force in this world. But our history (and current policies) are VERY FAR from that. The rest of the world aren't supposed to have the same conceptions/mis-conceptions WE have about ourselves...

It's day-clear to me that there are other "agendas" to be enforced after the dictators are removed. That's the way we are. We are not altruistic ... we go for our own benefit, which is fine, but lets not pretend otherwise. Or else it becomes a charade. Having said that, it is understandable why Arabs/Muslims are skeptical of the western role.

Europe was the one that disintegrated the Islamic "empire" in the first place, and created artificial borders and passed out entire countries in posh meetings in Paris and London, not to mention supporting dictators, creating Israel...etc. How do you expect these people to trust anything a successor government would do?

Just a little piece of info very little people know (Arabs or westerners), The Arab governments post-colonialism, in the late forties and early fifties, were pretty much Pro-USA, since it was a country with no colonial past, and of which was colonized itself. Arab leaders used to praise the US system and wish for a transformation similar to it. But 50 years of complete idiocy/corporate interest/special lobby influence has made those people hate the US.

I am not unaware of these facts, and I am not disagreeing with you.

What I disagree with is religion being used in what is now a political and economic problem. We are not in the crusades anymore, and churches all over the West are not calling for the destruction of the Islamic world, unlike what is happening in many Mosques... There are religious extremists in every religion, but the rise in popularity of extremism in the Islamic faith is startling and scary. I hope it doesn't create a rise in Christian fundamentalism and then lead to religion becoming touted more in the political and economic dealings. That is the worst thing that could happen. Western countries need to smarten up, and I think the strong political lobbying that is going on on the part of big business is a huge threat. I am angry that the government panders to these special interest groups because of money and political power to the detriment to ethical and moral conduct towards its own people and other nations.

What I disagree with is religion being used in what is now a political and economic problem. We are not in the crusades anymore, and churches all over the West are not calling for the destruction of the Islamic world, unlike what is happening in many Mosques... There are religious extremists in every religion, but the rise in popularity of extremism in the Islamic faith is startling and scary. I hope it doesn't create a rise in Christian fundamentalism and then lead to religion becoming touted more in the political and economic dealings. That is the worst thing that could happen. Western countries need to smarten up, and I think the strong political lobbying that is going on on the part of big business is a huge threat. I am angry that the government panders to these special interest groups because of money and political power to the detriment to ethical and moral conduct towards its own people and other nations.

I entirely agree with you on this.

Also we must not forget that the nature of Islam as a religion, is different to what we're familiar with.

Islam seems to cover more/and play more role in the lives of Muslims, than other religions do in the lives of their adherents.

Therefore I expect Islam as a religion, to remain a major player in muslim countries' politics.

I think the real problem lies in the fact, that although "extremist" Islam is not representative of the majority of muslims, yet it is the one being advertised the most in the media, which creates the false illusion that most muslims believe that.

But who's fault is that? Who owns the media? You can guess.

And by the way, by "Extremist" Islam I don't necessarily mean armed movements, because I do believe that sometimes it is necessary to use force to regain your rights. Whether the ideology behind that is Marxism, Democracy, or Islam is irrelevant.

Yes, I too realise that Islam will have more of a role in the government. This scares me because there is a big danger in turning religions upon each other. Many Western countries favour a separation of church and state, but is perhaps an impossible task for primarily Muslim countries. I also fear for other Muslims of different factions because it seems there is too much intolerance between the different factions. There needs to be harmony.

I think the media does focus too much on the Islamic terrorists, but when non-extremists are using religious rhetoric against the West, perhaps it is difficult for people to recognise whether that is a mark of extremism or not. This is of course, related to the issue above - the lack of separation of religious issues and political issues.
-----------------------------------------------------
Sometimes I think aspects of Western culture are in decay, but that doesn't mean that Islam is the solution to the ills of the world. Christianity and other religions try to regulate the behaviour of followers just as Islam does, but this doesn't necessarily work.

REQUEST FOR MODERATORS

This thread has gone far off track from Choco's original subject. Can we splice this thread and put the back half of it into a brand new thread with a new title?

moderators of this column are long dead and having deep slumber. I guess admin will have to do it.

kanelli wrote:If someone says that the West should fall and the Arab would should rise to overcome their oppressors - you don't consider that extreme?

Linda, I feel that you spend most of your time defending the plight of the Arab world, and don't often try to give a balanced view. Do you have any insight into or understanding of the West's behaviour?

For example, it is wrong to force democracy, but once you have lived in a democratic political system, would you really want to give it up? Should Africa, Asia, and the Middle East have some countries that suffer under the crushing rule of dictators? It is up to the people of those countries to free themselves, but can't you see why some Western countries would support the overthrowing of dictatorships? This is clear as day to me - and I can admit that meddling would be wrong, no matter how tempting it may be.

I'd like propose that big business is more of an evil than just naming Western countries as tyrants. The West is practically run by big business and its quest for wealth and expansion.

First of all I would like to address to all the people who are advocating for democracy.
If the concept of democracy is 'majority wins' then who decides that the majority is right and if they are right, then what happens to the minority? The reality is that the minority is crushed. Is that a just system? So does that mean you have to follow the majority even if you dont believe in them?
For example Indian being the biggest democracy in the world has far more bigger problems then that of here. Majority of people are illiterate and dont hv access to basic amenities or to atleast get three proper meals a day.
This again is because the elected leaders are corrupt and who selected them? THE MAJORITY. The minorities are crushed and then there are revolts and clashes which works against the progress of the country.

Having said that the sample principle works for the world as a whole. We should be tolerant and respect each other.
This certainly doesnt mean that I support any other form of gov but these are questions which have been lingering in my mind for a long long time...


If something works for you, its not certain it will work for me so will democracy not work in the UAE. The first and foremost reason is that the local population is small in number and whatever they are doing is to protect their interest. Its their land and they have a right to it.

Peace out!

gamechee wrote:

kanelli wrote:If someone says that the West should fall and the Arab would should rise to overcome their oppressors - you don't consider that extreme?

Linda, I feel that you spend most of your time defending the plight of the Arab world, and don't often try to give a balanced view. Do you have any insight into or understanding of the West's behaviour?

For example, it is wrong to force democracy, but once you have lived in a democratic political system, would you really want to give it up? Should Africa, Asia, and the Middle East have some countries that suffer under the crushing rule of dictators? It is up to the people of those countries to free themselves, but can't you see why some Western countries would support the overthrowing of dictatorships? This is clear as day to me - and I can admit that meddling would be wrong, no matter how tempting it may be.

I'd like propose that big business is more of an evil than just naming Western countries as tyrants. The West is practically run by big business and its quest for wealth and expansion.

First of all I would like to address to all the people who are advocating for democracy.
If the concept of democracy is 'majority wins' then who decides that the majority is right and if they are right, then what happens to the minority? The reality is that the minority is crushed. Is that a just system? So does that mean you have to follow the majority even if you dont believe in them?
For example Indian being the biggest democracy in the world has far more bigger problems then that of here. Majority of people are illiterate and dont hv access to basic amenities or to atleast get three proper meals a day.
This again is because the elected leaders are corrupt and who selected them? THE MAJORITY. The minorities are crushed and then there are revolts and clashes which works against the progress of the country.

Having said that the sample principle works for the world as a whole. We should be tolerant and respect each other.
This certainly doesnt mean that I support any other form of gov but these are questions which have been lingering in my mind for a long long time...


If something works for you, its not certain it will work for me so will democracy not work in the UAE. The first and foremost reason is that the local population is small in number and whatever they are doing is to protect their interest. Its their land and they have a right to it.

Peace out!

Been taking a back seat on this one so far...my poor little fingers would just drop off if I tried jumping in! Anyway, Kanelli and Linda seem to be agreeing more than disagreeing on points at the end here!

Anyway, Gamechee, you seem to have slightly confused 'democracy' with 'majority rule'. There is a subtle difference. There are various electoral systems used around the world in democratic process. The simplest is the 'First past the post' system which is what you refer to as the 'Concept of democracy'. This is the way it works in the UK: everyone has a vote and whichever individual politician in a local area gets more votes, then he represents that community in the general assembly (parliament) the political party that wins the most 'seats' then is appointed to govern whilst the other parties are 'in opposition'. In a 3 or more party system, the opposition can actually have more combined seats than the goverment. It is called a 'Hung Parliament' and there are often co-alitions formed. This is was case in Germany under Gerhardt Shroeder. The ruling party makes the policy and then relys on a majority to vote for their implementation. In a hung parliament, the government can have policy rejected by the ruling assembly. In the UK, since the times of the English Revolution, we have a dual house system and any policy approved by the parliament still has to have a higher approval by another set of 'independent' monitors before becoming a part of the statutes. This is the House of Lords.

There are other more complicated sytems such as 'Proportional Representation' where the parties, rather than the individual politicians, are allocated seats depending upon the total number of votes cast by the whole country. This provides a fairer representation for a minority but often results in a divided and less efficient ruling government.

The US system has a progressive series of voting where each political party gradually sifts through the presidential candidates until a main running candidate for each party is selected to run for president, then it is a straight dash for the line to see who gets more votes (this is a very simplistic description for the sake of this post as the US system also includes the election to the Senate and the House of Representatives which is a further complicated regional process)

In all systems, the actual process of 'government' is often handled by the civil servants who run the individual ministries and departments within an administration. These often remain in their posts, no matter who actually runs the ministry, as they are regarded as operational specialists in running these often large beurocracies. The government ministers are 'figureheads' and 'policy makers' rather than overall controllers. It can make the system very cumbersome.

Regarding India, yes it is the worlds largest democracy, however there are other influences in that particular country that are outside the political sphere and these pre-date any constitutional democratic system, which was only introduced after independence in 1944. The 'Caste System' has been prevalent there for centuries and may always be a part of their society. It remains unaffected by the democratic process, however a similar autocratic heirarchy was in existence in Europe for centuries. The aristocracy ruled most Western European and Eastern European countries until democracy effectively removed their totalitarian control and made the system fairer for all people. They are effectively reduced now to nothing more than ceremonial duties and, in countries such as France, they were all but wiped out in the Revolution in 1789. Interestingly, Spain was under Facist rule until quite recently, when it RETURNED to a monarchical state. It did not affected the democratic process and Spain has a duly elected parliament and government that actually runs the country.

There are still many countries around the globe that operate successfully under a monarchy, we live in one here in Dubai. Brunei and Malaysia are 2 more examples, however there are some African countries who are under a more totalitarian monarchical rule. A democracy in the UAE would not neccessarily work as the actual percentage of locals is lower than the transient immigrant population. This would be an imbalanced system and the one we have now is undoubtedly the best solution for the country as it stands.

I hope this has cleared a few of the points you are unsure about and look forward to seeing your comments!

The Force be with you!



Knight

Thanks Knights for elaborating on this issue but without going into details I would say that sometimes people have completely made mockery of the system of democracy. For example UK going to war even when the majority of population was against it. Leaders and gov post holders stood against it but nothing happened and the troops are still in Iraq.
On second thoughts if UK is a democratic country then what is the Royal family still doing there? The Queen fancies a tunnel across the english channel and billions from public money is spent. The project turns out to be a failure.
To conclude there are flaws in everything and there are some in the D system.

gamechee wrote:Thanks Knights for elaborating on this issue but without going into details I would say that sometimes people have completely made mockery of the system of democracy. For example UK going to war even when the majority of population was against it. Leaders and gov post holders stood against it but nothing happened and the troops are still in Iraq.
On second thoughts if UK is a democratic country then what is the Royal family still doing there? The Queen fancies a tunnel across the english channel and billions from public money is spent. The project turns out to be a failure.
To conclude there are flaws in everything and there are some in the D system.

This is only one of the problems with democracy, but then no system is perfect. No-one but a complete idiot wants to go to war, however the system decrees that we (the people) voted them (the government) into power, therefore we have given them the power to act on our behalf. It is called a Mandate. If they decide that going to war is in the interests of the country, then we have to abide by it. There has to be a majority of consent within the government before it can happen, but the people may still not agree. All that happens is the government gets kicked out at the next election and we get a new set of useless idiots to run our lives.

Our Royal Family is a powerless entity. This power was removed when the parliamentary constitution system was introduced after the English Civil War about 600 years ago. The Queen is just a figurehead, she has no say in the running or the political side of the country at all. She certainly didn't decide to have a tunnel...that was a purely political issue introduced by the beurocrats, approved by the beurocrats and screwed up by the beurocrats. It was actually an Anglo/French beurocratic rooster up. Sometimes they work (Concorde) sometimes they don't!

I heartily agree with you, Democracy is as flawed as any other system but at least it has more opportunity for a free society than Communism or Facism.

Knight

Cant believe how far this post has gone!!!

Didnt it start with "Emirati Homegirls"??!!

nought new there SheikaS

samy_solo wrote:

kanelli wrote:

Liban wrote:What is created by Western "technology" is OK to use for the following reason. The Arabs launched the western development movement back from the time of the rennaissance, so no, it is not being a hypocrite.

Very humourous. I suppose there has to be an excuse for Arabs who hate the West to continue to suck up Western culture and buy and use Western-made products and technology.

Hey, we gave you 'westerners' jobs, business opportunities, and a safe haven to live in!

Funny, all you low life racist have the audacity to insult us in our own country! Your kind will simply will not learn - Don't bite the hand that Feeds You. And don't think you’re scarce; in fact many of you are very disposable! If you have a problem with my country, my religion, or my other fellow Arabs just do yourself a favor and get the hell out!

Thousand just like you are waiting in line to have the opportunity to SERVE us!

Bothers you what I'm saying huh, poor thing - Not used to Arab speaking to you this way huh. Get one thing in your thick head - your kind gave us nothing, we ever we have he Bought from you so get over your colonial attitude.

To others reading my comments, if you respect our traditions, culture, and way of life we have absolutely no problems or issues with you – just please do not try to impose what you view as ‘western values’ in our country as we do not share the same principles – that’s doesn’t mean we can’t respect each other, In fact we always welcome those who come to us in respect.

Now that really is a crap attitude! Thank goodness there are very few nationals that think like this moron.

If all the expats got up and left tomorrow, this place would grind to a halt. It's been built on the hard work and sweat of foreigners and lets face it no national is going to work as a labourer is he - think about that next time you make a dumb comment like that!

Yes the place is a great place to live and work 'for some' and no people are not here to 'serve' you either! These are human beings we're talking about.

You're attitude is shameful, I'd like to ask what this guy is contributing to the UAE, because for sure there are many expats contributing more than many nationals.

Like I said luckily this guys attitude is rare - loser!

Yeah, I really should just ignore those racists who call me racist. The poster is just another hater who tries to slam Westerners whenever he/she gets the chance.

We are here for advancement of my hubby's career (and maybe mine too) and a new experience living in a completely different part of the world. Choco is right in saying that this place would grind to a halt if all the expats left. That would leave 20% of the population to take over jobs in all the businesses, schools, homes, transport, construction etc. etc. Many of the expats here aren't determined to try to change the culture. If it is issues regarding human rights and laws that apply to us expats, of course we speak up - wouldn't you? Are you suggesting that there should only be a pure Emirati culture here when over 80% of the population comes from somewhere else? Very unrealistic.

I still stand by my words. Anyone who hates the West should stop buying goods and services produced in the West. Put your money where your mouth is. I took "some Arabs" out because I don't just mean some Arabs - I mean anyone who loathes the West. Am I still going to be called racist for saying this? Probably.

By the way, I would drive many of you nuts if you saw my shopping habits. I have a long list of goods and services that I won't buy for political, ethical and evironmental reasons. I'm not perfect, but at least I try to put my money where my mouth is.

Good on you Kanelli, at least people like us try to do something for the causes we believe in. Unlike some other people who're all words and no action.

And I agree with what you say about western bashers, they yap on about it but still enjoy all the western things they buy and have at home. Ask them to give up their big cars and gadgets and fast food and they'd be crying like babies.

i would say samy-solo has been a bit harsh and insensitive. Nobody is bothered about serving you guys. In reality uae has invited people by developing this country and creating opportunities. And who has helped them in developing this country? So it works both ways!

Sorry to say but the arabs still consider the westerners as their masters since they were once colonized by them. They may deny it but unconciously they still do.

Facts :
- They would treat a westerner like god but at the same time treat an asian like a piece of shit.
- They would pay 4 time more to a westerner for the same job.
- Majority of the locals get educated in western universities and bring back western values when they return back and still they preach about their own culture which they themselves dont follow.
- They call themselves Muslims whereas dubai is one of the worlds biggest market of flesh trade

YOU GUYS ARE BIG TIME HYPOCRATES

YOU DONT BELIEVE IN EQUALITY OF HUMANS

YOU DONT PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH

I know some arab will come up with some justifications just to prove me worng and to satisfy his own ego. Please bear in mind that many people are unhappy in uae because of unjust and unfair ways of handling issues. Every person has self esteem and wants to be treated equally.

If people are coming here to work then they have their own reasons. Peep into a labourers life and you would know what kind of problems they have.
Their intention to come here and work is not to SERVE YOU but to earn money.
It is infact YOU who is exploting them by taking advantage of their situation. You underpay them, you oppress them, so what are you talking about?
Making big buildings and growing grass in desert is not a sign of advancement. Your social system is what really matters. Many civilisations have taken to the top and perished and left behind are the ruins. We should check back in history what really caused their destruction and learn lessons from it. Vice and oppression will always be followed by retaliation.

When you take technology and from west then you should also pick up the finer points. Like in the UK they have given asylum to thousands of people. Majority of them have no skills and are no good but still they are given an equal status as any other citizen. They are given opportunities and taken care of.
I've heard some of 'em saying 'If you dont like it here then go back to your country'. What kind of escapist attitude is this? This means you cant handle it and show a dont-care attitude. This is about peoples lives and not a candy barter!
Sorry for being blunt but somebody had to tell you this... let it be me...

OK, two points in one post:

One: a quick trip to Kuwait should put everyone straight about the situation here:

Just to the south east of the city, there is an area called Fahaheel. It is the traditional home of the Kuwaiti fishing industry and the main fish market is still located there in a new, shiny and very expensive development with a mall, entertainment complex etc. Incidentally, this development was concieved and created by a local Kuwaiti developer at great cost.

No more than 3 kilometres from there, the local Kuwati people are living in traditional tents in the desert, of their own choice, however they can be found every day buying expensive technology, clothes and food in the shops of the new mall. They visit the cinema to watch western films, they eat in the Pizza Hut restaurant and drink coffee in Starbucks.

Just outside the new mall, there are a host of 'traditional' shops, restuarants and coffee houses...that are now empty.

This proves that, no matter what anyone says here about not wanting western values or systems to influence the middle east, the reason they are here is because of demand. Yes, the local Kuwaiti people there choose to live a strictly traditional Bedouin lifestyle retaining their heritage and values...but also choose to enhance that lifestyle with products and services from the far east and the west. It is therefore hypocritical to suggest that these products or values have been 'forced' upon an unwilling society. Historically, people will only adopt a new way of thinking if it is better than the one they have now or if it truly works.


Two:
Back in the 1970's the government of Saudi Arabia declared that their process of 'Saudisation' was complete in key industries and vast numbers of ex-patriot workers and advisors were told to leave the country and their contracts were summarily cancelled, their places being taken by the Saudi nationals who had been trained and educated by them. Within 6 months, almost all were re-hired (on larger and better salary packages) as the country nearly came to a stand-still. Yes the nationals had been trained, however they were unwilling to actually 'do' the work they were trained for. Who's fault is that? The western advisors (many were from far eastern countries too) or the people they were there to help?

There are double standards in every culture, but to try to believe that the middle east culture is any different and therefore perfect in every way, is a misnoma.

Dubai and the UAE has it's faults, but here the rulers have the sense to realise that, in order to be a force in the GLOBAL community, rather than the LOCAL community, there has to be a cosmopolitan population and international standards. This means admitting to themselves that, sometimes, other countries and cultures have a better answer than themselves. Its called humility and wisdom. It is also making their own national population better able to understand the international cultures around them and breeding a future sense of tolerance.

Knight

Great posts Gamechee and DK, very informative! and very true.

Being partly involved with the advertising industry I know what it takes to sell a penny worth of Coke for a pound. Its all about hype and mass propagation which makes flavoured soda, which is not good for health, sell like anything. The masses are quite vulnerable to media and usually accept whats infiltrated into their minds day and night.

And so is DEMAND created.

I have seen people pay a tenner for some stupid soda drink when they could get a healthier orange juice for a fiver!
Why do they do that? Just because they want to follow the trend (which has been conspired!). Secondly the presentation of the product and how it makes you feel.
Ever wondered why you shell out 600 dirhams for a pair diesel jeans when you could get something similar but unbranded for a mere 100 bucks? Its all about how you campaign and present it.

Over the years I have observed that the modus-operandi used by any evil power to control any community is :
- By manipulating their history, educational system and language
- By influencing their culture
- By controlling the youth

Like in turkey where the original written script which looked like arabic was changed to a script in which the alphabets looked more familiar to english. The outcome was that the new genaration lost touch with their old books and whatever was translated was given a particular direction of thinking. I am not too sure but i think but a similar attempt was made to change the Swahili script of Africa.
One more attempt was made to change the script of the Urdu language to english in the 70s.

The biggest asset to a country is the youth. It can either help a country to flourish or get ruined . In some countries the youth is absolutely indulged in football, wine and women. This is a conpiracy so that the young minds dont think beyond a certain point. If they start thinking then their would upheavals which could lead to revolts.

They say you eat, drink and be merry and leave the rest to us! Don't bother if we kill thousands of people in Iraq for no reason but to get their oil. You just eat, drink and be merry while we make our money...

Perhaps some of them were cheering n enjoying an Arsenal vs Manchester United game on a 50 inch plasma in some downtown bar, sipping pint after pint of good 'ol guiness, when somebody's 14 yr old daughter was repeatedly being gang raped.
Mission accomplished innit?

Disclaimer :

I hv nothin against any country, community or individual. Its just that I am against any evil be it oppression, inequality or violence from anyone or any side.
Shdnt we all b against it? i m sure v all r.

I am in favour of peace, brotherwood and flourishment of all fellow human beings.

Lastly arsenal or MU fans, ppl who enjoy guiness and ppl who use the word 'innit' pls dont be offended as i hv nothin against u or the above said things

Sad to say that the youth of today innit are out of touch with many things, they don 't care as long as they have their computer games, hoodie tops and baggy jeans with the crotch down around their knees. Young people in the UK are awful, I certainly don't miss them, many are tearaways without discipline from the parents of teachers or anyone else.

It's really sad, it's like young people today have no goals or anything to strive for. Look at Iran the majority of the population are under 30!!!! And doing their own thing underground away from the hardliners, when they outnumber them by so many they should be rising up, using their voices and standing up for what they want.

I dispair of kids these days I really do.

No matter how much I may disagree with the general social fabric of the West today I must interject.

West bashing has become a popular sport in the world (not just the Arab world). Some of it is based on fact (ie. US foreign policy) and some itsn't (ie. all Westerners want to kill Muslims).

People who claim to be true to their religion (the monotheistic faiths of God) cannot at the same time condone mass murder or global hatred of all things different.

You can say, "I hate the West's policies of supporting Israel" and that would be fine. But you cannot walk around saying "we should gas all Jews" just for the hell of it.... Obviously I would say to "do onto others what they do onto you" or "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" which is an element of the monotheistic faiths. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction (Newton). But would I be correct to say "an eye for an eye", for example? Well I would apply this sparingly because no matter what, someone will always hurt you bad, but what good does it do to hurt him equal? If someone kills your dog, whats the point of going out to kill his dog? Thats what I mean... Just be careful in life.

Now lets get back to the basic topic being discussed.

I would like to ask the perpetrator of the comment about foreigners out of the UAE if he/she ever heard of the Global Village? No one country can isolate itself from the world and expect to prosper. If a country like Canada deported all immigrants and non-whites, the country would crumble. Same applies here. We are all linked and need each other. Protectionarism doesn't work today...

Here is a practical historically based example:

- World War II. The USA decided in the begining to keep out. As was in line with its isolationist principals (fortress North America). But alas, it could not keep out as Japan made it involve itself (Pearl Harbor).

Another example:

- Zimbabwe. This country is a bread basket. It is fertile, it is rich in food and very productive. Then Mugabe (twat) decided to kick out all the experienced farmers who were working in their fields for so long to replace them with others throygh intimidation or violence. Look at Zimbabwe now... The "bread basket" is poor and hungry. All that because they decided to close off their country to anyone who was not "local".

Now you may say, "Oh Liban" these are weak examples. So I will just respond to you "thats your opinion but I doubt you are correct".

What is a local?

People in Normandy or Alsace (France), or Western Checz Republic, or North East Greece, or Israel or the UAE even, are they true locals? Migration, nomadism, and tribal culture are human traits that cross the races, breeds, and cultures.

People, we are all local, we are all of this world, and we are all God's servants.

All I can say is, we should respect conservative cultures prevalent in the Middle East (generally speaking) and try to perhapes sway more liberal cultures to "return to the flock" so to speak (ie. stregnthen value system and less "s.e.x." stuff (for lack of a better word.

Sorry for this long thread guys but I was out of town all weekend so I have to make up for things

Shoot... That was one long post!!!!!!!

Did, I type all that!!!

Liban wrote:Shoot... That was one long post!!!!!!!

Did, I type all that!!!

Obviously, you did! And I have to say that this is possibly the best post I have read on DF to date! Thank you!

The migratory history of the human race means that we are all linked and we are all inter-related. That makes us one brotherhood and thus an integral part of the planet eco-system.

A surgeon knows, we are all the same colour underneath the skin.




Knight