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An interesting read, although I don't agree with parts of it.For me as a single woman living in Tehran it is not as difficult as it is stated here.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/13/world/middleeast/single-women-gaining-limited-acceptance-in-iran.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2&ref=global-home

An interesting article Mel - thanks.

It seems that even though there is social pressure, women are able to live independent lives - at least in the cities. There is an issue with expensive marriages it says and that the government has sought to address that - so at least the issue doesn't seem to be oppression of women, as such, but rather with social pressure about unmarried women (and men).

Reports from Egypt state that there ae similar issues with marriages now taking place much later on than in the past - with grooms well into their 30s, all down to having to save up for the marriages, marital home etc. This has had a knock on effect on the numbers of single people.

The encouraging thing is that Iran is keeping up with the good example of not restricting women when it comes to education (and I hope employment also). All these independent single ladies who aren't studying I hope will be able to work and contribute to society that way. When/if they get married is up to them.

I also see nothing wrong in the promotion of marriage - that has many benefits for society, and is a part of Persian traditions too.

Anyway, glad you are not having as many difficulties as in the article.

Take care.

Cheers,

Shafique

I disagree Shaf. The root problem IS oppression of women. The only way to preserve the cultural norms is to have the young women marry and leave from their father's home to their husband's home, with no studies or work - straight to baby-making. That was the measure of success, as was claimed in the article. It was the expectation that women remain with their husbands, no matter the issues in the marriage, and if they did divorce, the women had to live in shame back in their father's house. Is it any wonder that modern women would want to escape from such societal norms? Simply making weddings more affordable doesn't solve the core problems at all. Women want to study, think, stand on their own two feet, and be economically independent from their fathers and husbands. Intelligent, strong, educated, and independent women will have a hard time finding a spouse willing to take on such a partner, because most men would be intimidated to have a wife they can't dominate or control mentally, physically, and financially. I would argue that these kinds of women are a huge asset to Iran, but men, and society in general, are going to have to shift their views about the role and treatment of women in society.

Well, with 60% of university students being women, I'm struggling to reconcile this with the view that the cultural norm is not to have educated women or liberated women.

From my experience, Iranians are quite cultured and have a variety of views on religion, the role of women etc. I think it would be wrong to think that there aren't as may 'liberated' or liberal minded Iranian men as there are Iranian women. Why should Iranian marriages be oppressive (or more oppressive than marriages in other societies?)

I wouldn't view marriage as part of the oppression of women, or the desire that single people should marry is a sign of oppression. It would be interesting to note how many of the women in work and education are married. The increasing rate of divorce is an indication of tensions - but divorce rates is a global issue.

Women in Iran have worked and played full part in society for a long time. Since the revolution there was a crack down, but the article is about what is happening now.

I make a distinction between Persian cultural norms - where marriage is viewed as a societal norm, and oppressive misogynistic views about women not working etc. But Mel is in a better place to comment.

Just agreeing to disagree with you K.

Cheers,

Shafique

Shaf, the article demonstrates that the views are changing and there are indeed more women in university and as the article said, more women living alone and couples are getting married later. (That has to do with money for the wedding and likely completing studies, as is what happens in other parts of the world as well) The article is describing how women are treated in society and how they have to hide the fact that they are single in order to rent apartments etc. The article describes the stereotypes of single women as being immoral. This tells me that society on the whole isn't fully onboard (yet) with how the new generation of women want to live their lives. I do consider passing women from fathers to husbands as an oppressive condition, especially if it means that women remain less educated and in a weaker position to earn money in the event of divorce.

Like in any society, if you meet the well-educated and more liberal class of people, you get one view of society, and if you meet less-educated and conservative class of people you get another view.

Interesting how we get different messages/meanings from the same article.

I'll just explain how I read it.

First the issue is indeed the social acceptance of single women living independently.

However the article states that those in power both want to preserve traditional social values and also encourage education. The article then states that the solution is marriage, and describes the moves to make marriage easier.

I'm not seeing how marriage in itself in this context is oppressive. Marriage is not at the expense of education or a career, but rather addresses the cultural issue on whether a unmarried life is an acceptable social option. Traditionally it isn't.

I'd hazard a guess that the majority of the 60% in university will choose to get married and won't face the issues highlighted in the article. I don't think they will all be oppressed in the marriages either..and if they do, they will have recourse to divorce (which given it is on the increase indicates it is an option that can and is being used).

I first encountered Iranians in 2003 and back then the professional women I met (doctors in this case) told us about the status of women in Iran, how they were educated and working, and also maintaining the old social values too. It was quite an eye opener for my colleague and me - as we had a totally different impression of the Islamic Republic.

Cheers
Shafique

In the West no one bats an eyelash about single women renting apartments, and it is the norm to have a large percentage of women attending universities. Women marry if they choose to, and stay single if they don't want to marry, or can't find the right person for them. If someone came out and said this was all a problem and the solution is to find a way to marry off all of these women, I'd say that is a form of oppression.

I can't do certain things because I'm not married. This is Dubai, and I'm a boy.

I know I'm talking from a biased perspective, so I'd really like to hear what Mel has to say on the issue. The Iranian women I know are all well-educated and are professionals, so are much the same as the women Shaf has met.

--- Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:50 pm ---

Nucleus wrote:I can't do certain things because I'm not married. This is Dubai, and I'm a boy.

What kinds of restrictions do they have in Dubai for men? I know singles can't go to the beach on certain days, but have never asked what other restrictions there are. There are extenuating circumstances of having so many men in the Emirate to work while their wives and children are back home - it puts the male-female ratio quite out of whack. I can imagine there is a lot of bias towards single men.

kanelli wrote:In the West no one bats an eyelash about single women renting apartments, and it is the norm to have a large percentage of women attending universities. Women marry if they choose to, and stay single if they don't want to marry, or can't find the right person for them. If someone came out and said this was all a problem and the solution is to find a way to marry off all of these women, I'd say that is a form of oppression.

Iran is not in the West though.

Some people may argue that the social evolution in 'the West' has not been all for the good. They may argue that it is not 'progress' to believe that Marriage and a stable home is somehow inferior (or oppressive) vs the social acceptance of men and women remaining single as an acceptable life choice. Morality and social norms change. Less than 100 years ago, to take an example, children out of wedlock was a shameful thing and the women were often hidden and babies passed off as siblings. Marriage had more meaning, perhaps back then.

If some societies still have this higher regard for Marriage than the West, I think it is a value judgement which is more socially advanced and which is more oppressive.

There are some who say that the objectification of women in 'the West' is also a form of oppression. I've even argued (humourously) that high heels and short skirts must have been invented by men and marketed as liberating for women, and done a great job at convincing women that they will be liberated if they dress alluringly in public. But that is another discussion.

Cheers,

Shafique

I don't think that many people in the West would feel that marriage and a stable home is inferior compared to singlehood. Actually, speaking as a woman from the West, married to a Western man, there are oppressive ideas about a woman's role in a marriage that I could do without. Many of my friends have a similar problem. Do we divorce our husbands over it? No. Does it make for more stress in a relationship? Sometimes. Could many Western men be better partners and more evenly share duties, especially when a woman is also working full-time and bringing a second income into the house? Yes.

What influences a higher regard for marriage and what does it mean in the end? Many country stats show a 50-50 chance of a marriage surviving. I'm thinking about one of my relatives who stayed with her abusive alcoholic husband until he died in his 60's. I guess she'd get a medal for honouring the institution of marriage, but she didn't live a happy life.

In the West, I don't cover myself in flowing loose fabric or cover my face, and yet I'm not harassed by men. If I wore 6 inch heels, a mini skirt and a top with a plunging neckline it would be a different story. I would argue that a society that allows men to wear t-shirts and shorts in public, and even swim with swim trunks and no shirt on, while women must be covered completely at all times, is oppressing its women by applying a separate standard that the men don't have to adhere to. The basis of it is the fear of female se.xuality and the shaming of women if they arouse impure thoughts in a man. Even on this forum someone was saying how a woman looks more beautiful wearing a hijab than without, so even a woman covering her hair can entice a man to admire her beauty.

First let me clarify, I think it is even more 60%. The portion of women entering universities in Iran is around 70% now. Although there is a new policy from government which is really shameful. They are trying to put a quota in number of men entering universities to keep it 50/50!

Cultural norm is ok with educated women, but still wants to keep them inside house. Kanelli has a really good point about if you meet well educated and liberal people you get a different view of the society. For me what I see is all my girlfriends have at least! Masters or doing their phd somewhere outside the country. But when you communicate with people from lower class, most of them get their bachelors and stay at home. Still I think it is a step forward to have educated housewives instead of illiterate!

The article is describing how women are treated in society and how they have to hide the fact that they are single in order to rent apartments etc.

This is the part of the article which I don't agree with much. I'm living alone in Tehran since I entered university (11 years ago) and I totally see the change. I remember at first years some landlords had some hesitations to rent us apartments but now it is really fine. I think the change has been really swift. Although of course it is not comparable with west, but at least in big cities like Tehran it became a norm for single woman to live alone.

The decrease of marriages and increase of divorces, I see it as a result of more powerful women. Totally agreed with K, that women are becoming more aware of their position and power and don’t accept anything forced to them. I don’t think fewer marriages are merely because of financial problems, but it is because women don’t need men for financial support or to live independently in the society.

Thanks Mel for the clarifications.

A very interesting thread indeed.

K - we'll have to agree to disagree on the causes/philosophy/reasons why some cultures value or encourage modest dressing, and whether it is out of fear or some other reason. I think you know my views on the subject by now!

Cheers,

Shafique

Mel, I'm glad to hear that single women living alone is less stigmatized in Tehran - sounds like a positive step to unburden women who would like to pursue higher education or wait a while to find the right man to marry.

Shaf, all I can say is that when I see a hot Arab guy at the beach with no shirt on, I'm not thinking about butterflies and kitten whiskers But it doesn't seem to matter if men provoke indecent thoughts in women. Many times you talk about how men should also dress modestly, but in practice it isn't happening, and furthermore, society does not enforce it so stricly as it does for women. That is an indication right there that there is a huge double standard applied to women.

^ Kitten whiskers

Women are treated differently in the West too.

But I agree with you, the same rules +should+ apply to the men too. At least the Quran is clear on this point - it specfically gives instructions to men and then to women on dressing modestlly. If men/boys get away with more then that is double standard.

And indeed, the first instruction to believers is to 'cast down your eyes' - i.e. you restrain your looks. This applies to both men and women.

But I would argue that rather than doing away with the ruling because one isn't following, it should be that the boys should be under the same 'pressures' to conform.

Again, just my opinion.

Cheers,

Shafique

kanelli wrote:What kinds of restrictions do they have in Dubai for men?

Can't open imigration file to sponsor, that kind restricts lot of things if you want to do business. I've to get it from other people from the family who have immigration file. Can't hire watchman or maid, if father is not alive that can be problem.

Well Shaf, I'm a Western woman and didn't feel safer with men in Dubai where men supposedly have more respect for women. I was gawked at in an indecent way, even when wearing loose long pants/skirt and 3/4 sleeve/ long sleeved tops. I prefer the more discreet observing of Western men. Again, it is about the underlying view of women - if you're not wearing an abaya and hijab, you are fair game to be salivated over because you aren't a pious woman. In the West, men seem to draw the line of open salivation at women dressed in very skimpy and tight clothes, in the East it seems it is when not wearing culturally/religiously-related clothing. And by the way, I'm not saying all men are like that. I met many respectful men, no matter what I was wearing.

--- Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:15 pm ---

Nucleus , wow, the restrictions don't seem fair

kanelli wrote:Well Shaf, I'm a Western woman and didn't feel safer with men in Dubai where men supposedly have more respect for women. I was gawked at in an indecent way, even when wearing loose long pants/skirt and 3/4 sleeve/ long sleeved tops.

No argument there. Dubai is not typical of the Mid East though - I'd say your experience is typical of Western women.. some of the reasons may be the legions of single workers, the readily available 'ladies of the night' and general 'clash of cultures' do make for an atypical experience. Etc. In short, I would not use the sub-cultures of Dubai to make my case either way.

By contrast, my wife (who wears an abaya) had a different experience - supporting your comment about 'fair game'.

I wonder whether the situation in Iran is markedly different? I'd expect the Iranian men to be more cultured. Mel?

Cheers,

Shafique

This quite timely given the imminent ruling on UAE clothing laws.

I would also expect the Iranian men to be more cultured Shaf, and if I were female I may feel safer alone with them than their neighbours across the gulf.

Welcome back ben - long time!

You'll forgive me for not taking the bait about me considering all who are critical of Islam as rednecks in the other thread. (And as a chav would say 'As if!' )

Anyway glad that we have the same impression (yet to be confirmed by Mel) about the Iranian vs Dubai male reactions to single women.

Cheers,

Shafique