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I know most of those whom I am speaking are Muslim. This post is just for my Muslim brothers. You may heard the name of Dajjal. The messenger of Allah (S) predicted on a lot of matters. One of His predictions is on Dajjal. He told Dajjal to the greatest fetnah for human being form Adom to Kiamot. He has given some symbols from which we can identify Dajjal when he comes. Basyazid Khan Panni, a Bangladeshi Emam, has claimed it to identify Dajjal. He has tried to prove according to the Hadith of Prophet (S) that Dajjal is nothing but the present Judea Christian mechanical civilization. He has given some logic and proof which can not be denied. What's is your opinion ?

Interesting website (the second link you gave is broken). This thread should really be in the religion forum - and I'm sure it will be moved in due course.

I think the Imam has picked up on some very good points - and to me too the links he makes note of are quite obvious when you read all the prophecies about the Dajjal. I was always impressed by the descriptions of Dajall's donkey and how these descriptions clearly are talking about trains, ocean-going ships and airplanes..

I think though that the Imam's conclusions are a bit weak - especially the speculation about why Isa needs to return to defeat the Dajjal. However to give him credit, he acknowledges this and invites others with better views to let him know.

However, on the identity of the Dajjal - I'd take exception over the labelling here. I'd rather label the Dajjal as the secular materialistic world rather than 'Judaeo-Christian' civilisation. After all, China's rise to the top is going to topple the 'west' dominance pretty soon and then the Imam will have to change the story (and perhaps the Dajjal will become confucian??)

That said, I agree that the prophecies of Dajjal have been fulfilled, and I agree that the prophecies relating to how Muslims should act (and indeed the prophecies on how fragmented the Muslims will be ) are there to be read, understood and followed.

The second coming of Jesus, as, is indeed central to the prophecies and it will be those who accept and follow the Messiah when he comes that will resit the Dajjal. The Prophet, pbuh, said that all the sins that the Jews committed will be committed by his Ummah - to the extent that the two will resemble a pair of shoes. All Muslims accept these prophecies as true.

What is interesting is that one of the greatest sins committed by Jews (in Muslim eyes) is their rejection of their Messiah. The majority rejected him, only a minority accepted him.

I'd be interested to hear your view on the combination of these two points - i.e. do you believe that the Muslims will commit this same sin and the majority will reject the Messiah when he comes? Doesn't this have to happen - as the prophecy says all sins of the Jews will be committed by the muslims?

So .. what if the Dajjal is a signal that the Messiah has come?

Cheers,

Shafique

I agree partially with Shaf it is closely related to one sided materalistic worldview blind from the consideration of afterlife, which I speculate will grow in the future. But I believe, dajjal is the person who will take advantage of it and take it to the highest level. But no need to speculate on it, when it will come it will be obvious. Hadith about arabs competing to build tall buildings was pretty obvious.

I'll quote the different variations of the mentioned hadith:

Among the signs of the Hour mentioned by the Noble Messenger of Allah – Allah bless and greet him and his Family and Companions – in Sahih al-Bukhari is “when the destitute (al-buhm) camelherds compete in building tall structures.”

In Sahih Muslim: “you shall see the barefoot, naked, indigent (al-`âla) shepherds compete in building tall structures.”

Ibn Hajar said in commenting this passage of the hadith in Fath al-Bari:
What is meant by them is the people of the desert country, as was made explicit in Sulayman al-Taymi’s and other narrations: “Who are the barefoot and naked?” He answered: “The Bedouin Arabs.”

My point is the major signs that are mentioned in authentic hadiths will be obvious and explicit when they will come, so don't bother with the speculation.

'building tall buildings sign' is before the dajjal's time, but it is difficult to get the 100% accurate chronological order. But it is pretty clear dajjal will show up during the peak of droughts. Droughts happen every now and then but if world starts to experience extreme droughts globally, that would probably a clear one *disclaimer: in my opinion*

So I believe neither dajjal (anti-christ) or Jesus second coming have happened yet.

Nouman Ali Khan has the right attitude *(in my opinion)*

Shaf wrote:What is interesting is that one of the greatest sins committed by Jews (in Muslim eyes) is their rejection of their Messiah. The majority rejected him, only a minority accepted him.

Muslims can be believe unfounded things, but that is not in the Quran. I read somewhere a commentary that was not just with the Jews but that is the example we have. Point was believing or waiting for a figure doesn't mean people will follow guidance, but it is dependent on taqwa. Whether somebody is waiting or not for Messiah, Prophet, or Mehdi doesn't really matter; but the people who have Taqwa will follow true guidance from God whoever brings it -- so focus should be on building taqwa. And in the Quran the major issue shown for the Jews was the Taqwa issues as a case study and warning for us to not to do the samethings that they did. For muslims, I see the same problem -- taqwa issues. Dr Lang touches very clearly on taqwa issues in muslim communities. Nouman Ali Khan also focuses on these in his lectures. I recommend reading Dr Lang's book even angel ask and watching Br Nouman's lectures.

Interesting post Nucleus. Thanks.

I agree that when the time of the fulfilment of the signs of Dajjal come it will be pretty obvious - as obvious as Arabs competing with each other to build tall buildings. The other signs of the Dajjal are as obvious - such as the donkey which will carry people across oceans in a single bound, which eats fire but the passengers are not affected - even describing how passengers will enter from the sides of the donkey and will be visible via windows on its side, and how the donkey will announce the departure and arrival. Pretty obvious to me.

Given that these have obviously been fulfilled, the logic for me is that Dajjal is here and that the other aspects of the prophecy should also be fulfilled/followed.

Dajjal is inextricably linked with the Messiah - and the state of the Muslims in these latter times is also well described.

This Hadith is well known and in the link afterwards is considered very reliable/authentic:

Abdullah bin Amar (RA) relates that the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) said "Surely things will happen to my people as happened earlier to Israelites, they will resemble each other like one shoe in a pair resembles the other to the extent that if anyone among the Israelites has openly committed adultery to his mother there will be some who will do this in my Ummah as well, verily the Israelites were divided into 72 sections but my people will be divided into 73 sections, all of them will be in the fire except one." The companions asked,'Who are they O Messenger of Allah,' Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) said, "They are those who will be like me and my companions."

http://www.real-islam.org/73_2.htm


What isn't very often done is the linking of this hadith with the Prophecies about Dajjal and the Messiah. The Prophet, pbuh, was categoric - all that happened to the Jews will happen to the Muslims. No room for doubt - 'surely things will happen'.

In some ways, this explains why what happened to the Jews is given such prominence in the Quran and Hadith. Their sins are going to be repeated by Muslims.

There are Jews today who say that the Messiah for the Jews may come, but that they shouldn't worry too much about that for now - just concentrate on what scholars tell them the Torah says and to continue to live as pious a life as they can and follow what scholars and they themselves interpret of Judaism. Muslims and Christians would discuss with them that perhaps they have not accepted the Messiah that God sent to them. They would argue that Jesus was not the Messiah - because he did not literally fulfil prophecies (eg. Elijah did not bodily descend from heaven, he didn't fight wars and didn't give the jews physical keys to the kingdoms on earth).

For me, if the Jews rejected Jesus because he didn't fulfil prophecies literally - or because Elijah didn't bodily descend from heaven - then this is an example of a sin that the Jews committed. For me, therefore, the Muslims will also be guilty of a similar sin - rejecting the messiah because a prophet did not literally descend from Heaven or fulfil prophecies literally..

Or am I missing something in this logic?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:The other signs of the Dajjal are as obvious - such as the donkey which will carry people across oceans in a single bound, which eats fire but the passengers are not affected - even describing how passengers will enter from the sides of the donkey and will be visible via windows on its side, and how the donkey will announce the departure and arrival. Pretty obvious to me.

That sounds like 7 century description of a jet plane.

shafique wrote:Given that these have obviously been fulfilled, the logic for me is that Dajjal is here and that the other aspects of the prophecy should also be fulfilled/followed.

Technology that he will ride is here doesn't mean he is here. This technology can exist for another 200 years in similar form.

That site is blocked I can't read that page. But the hadith is simply saying that muslims will fell into same taqwa issues as their predecessors did. It is taking about the corruptions as the hadith mentions: "to the extent that if anyone among the Israelites has openly committed adultery to his mother there will be some who will do this in my Ummah as well".

Like I said it is related to taqwa issues.

As for the 73 sects, I don't know what that page says but it is figure of speech, but many people take it litteraly the number. It just warning against that our ummah will be divided more into sects and schism, so not to fall into this.

Taking this hadith for dajjal is stretching it too far.

shafique wrote:In some ways, this explains why what happened to the Jews is given such prominence in the Quran and Hadith. Their sins are going to be repeated by Muslims.

Both Jews and Christians have been given importance in Quran and hadith has both have lessons for us.

shafique wrote:There are Jews today who say that the Messiah for the Jews may come, but that they shouldn't worry too much about that for now - just concentrate on what scholars tell them the Torah says and to continue to live as pious a life

That probably would work better, since waiting for the Messiah and Prophet didn't really workout for them. When they came they rejected both of them. People who weren't waiting for them followed these two more.

shafique wrote:and follow what scholars and they themselves interpret of Judaism

I don't wholesale agree with that since scholars and themselves have interpretations that go against piety.

shafique wrote:For me, if the Jews rejected Jesus because he didn't fulfil prophecies literally - or because Elijah didn't bodily descend from heaven - then this is an example of a sin that the Jews committed. For me, therefore, the Muslims will also be guilty of a similar sin - rejecting the messiah because a prophet did not literally descend from Heaven or fulfil prophecies literally..

Jews of Madina also rejected Prophet Mohammad (pbuh).

shafique wrote:Or am I missing something in this logic?

I think you are stretching the logic to fit into something specific, while the hadith is generic. It even mentions "adultery," if biggest issue would have been not following Messiah then Prophet would have emphasized on that in the hadith, but rather he emphasized on corruption by giving an example of "adultery."

Second, that is not the reason giving in the Quran for rejection of the people they were waiting for. The reason is along the lines they were following their own whims rather than God. And when the person came whom they were waiting for, they became the biggest test for them against the weakness in their emaan.

So you believe Messiah is here and majority of Muslims have missed him?

Nucleus wrote:Technology that he will ride is here doesn't mean he is here.

Actually, the Hadith are clear - all people will use Dajjal's transport, including the believers. However, the Hadith do not say that this will be the transport that Dajjal will use.. but rather that this is 'Dajjal's transport' - i.e. it will be his. These are descriptions of Dajjal's 'donkey' after all.

It would be another thing if these were Hadith about 'transportation in the latter days before Dajjal appears' - but they happen to be descriptions of 'Dajjal's donkey'.

So, yes - the description of a jet plane is quite obvious to me as well. And hence, I think this clearly shows that Dajall's donkey takes the form of a jet plane.


I therefore struggle to understand the logic that we may see Dajjal's donkey before Dajjal appears. But that's just me.



As for the Hadith - the Prophet, pbuh, is saying clearly that ALL the transgressions/errors made by the Jews will be committed by the Muslims. He gives an extreme exmaple of adultery with mother.. to illustrate the point. The Hadith is emphatic - this will surely happen.

The question I'm posing is that whether the error of rejecting the Messiah for the Jews will be committed by the Muslims. The Jews, after all, rejected Jesus because he didn't take up a sword against the Romans, Elijah didn't phsyically descend from heaven etc. The Jews said he was false and didn't literally fulfil prophecies written in the scripture. A minority of Jews did recognise Jesus and did understand that Yahya/John the Baptist was the second coming of Elijah etc. The majority of Jews though rejected Jesus.

Now, if the Holy Prophet, pbuh, is right - when the Messiah of Muslims comes, the majority will reject him for not taking up arms against the then colonial rulers, ask where the physical descent of a prophet is etc . A minority will accept him and understand that the prophecies were fulfilled ...

If that happens (or happened), then the prophecy in the Hadith would be fulfilled to the letter.

We both agree that Elijah isn't going to descend from heaven physically - don't we? The Jews are still waiting for him to descend and still waiting for the Messiah to come - whilst you and I agree that Jesus came to them 2000 years ago. The Prophet said the Muslims will make the same mistake. Food for thought?



Cheers,

Shafique

shafique wrote:Actually, the Hadith are clear - all people will use Dajjal's transport, including the believers.

I'm not aware of any such hadith where it is says all people will use Dajjal's transport.

shafique wrote:Hadith do not say that this will be the transport that Dajjal will use.. but rather that this is 'Dajjal's transport' - i.e. it will be his.

I would take with the appostophe "s" that he will own it, and travel with it, maybe not all the time but that probably one of his main travel mode.

Hadith does say that he will move with great swiftness around the Earth, "like a cloud driven by the wind." (Sahih Muslim) So I believe he will use it.

shafique wrote:I therefore struggle to understand the logic that we may see Dajjal's donkey before Dajjal appears. But that's just me.

I don't see why it is difficult to understand. Hadith is just describing a travel mode, unless it is invented by Dajjal, I don't see any logical issues appearing it before the coming of Dajjal.

shafique wrote:As for the Hadith - the Prophet, pbuh, is saying clearly that ALL the transgressions/errors made by the Jews

Hadith is not that specific and litteral.

shafique wrote: The majority of Jews though rejected Jesus.

They also rejected Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), and Quran gives an idea why, which is not inline with that interpretation. So I respectfully disagree with your interpretation.

shafique wrote:If that happens (or happened), then the prophecy in the Hadith would be fulfilled to the letter.

Not true. That is just partially ending the prophecy. What about the narrations which mention the gate of Ludd? That is just want to fit Jews rejected Jesus and want to end the prophecy there. I'm not following the logic.

shafique wrote:We both agree that Elijah isn't going to descend from heaven physically - don't we?

I don't know, I didn't study about Elijah in detail.

shafique wrote: The Jews are still waiting for him to descend and still waiting for the Messiah to come - whilst you and I agree that Jesus came to them 2000 years ago.

Jews, Christians, and Muslims all 3 are waiting for the Messiah to come. That would include Christians too, they missed the boat too I suppose of the second coming of Jesus (assuming he has already come and left, like the first time).

shafique wrote:The Prophet said the Muslims will make the same mistake.

That is based on the assumption interpretation is correct. While the hadith is generic and seems about corruption as it gives adultery as example. I disagree respectfully.

Ok I'll try to follow this thought. So he will return, how? Hadith say he will decend down, did he decend down. So by example of Elijah I presume decend down could mean something else, so it doesn't happen exactly the same way. It could mean reborn. Right? What else I'm missing. I recommend you take it on http://forums.understanding-islam.com Nice people there. Perhaps other people can ask relavent questions there regarding this point of view. My mind is too busy to ask all the quesitons I've in mind.

Quran doesn't give importance to second coming of Messiah/Jesus (p); perhaps it is not that important. Food for thougt?

Nucleus wrote:Ok I'll try to follow this thought. So he will return, how? Hadith say he will decend down, did he decend down. So by example of Elijah I presume decend down could mean something else, so it doesn't happen exactly the same way. It could mean reborn. Right? What else I'm missing.

Let's leave the Hadith refs about Dajjal for now (these can be looked up and quoted - the one I'm thinking of is of the airplane one where the announcements are made, in that it says the Muslims would use the transport), and stick to the rather simple point about Elijah, his bodily return and this being a sign for the coming of the Jewish Messiah.

Elijah is in the Bible as going into heaven bodily in a fiery chariot. The Bible says he needs to return before the Messiah appears. Christians and Muslims both believe that this was fulfilled in the person of the Prophet Yahya (John the Baptist). Elijah lived in the desert and dressed in animal skins. Yahya did the same.

Jews who reject Jesus say that Elijah did not literally return, therefore Jesus cannot be the Messiah. Elijah is Elias in the Quran - and if you

So, in this case an excuse for the Jews rejecting their Messiah is that a prophecy about a Prophet descended has not been fulfilled literally yet. Muslims and Christians say this is a mistake.

Now, if you look at the Hadith I quoted above and look at the Arabic - the Prophet, pbuh, starts by saying 'Surely' the errors made by Jews will be made by my Ummah. Not some, a few or most - but in Arabic it is 'all the errors'.

My point is that if we take this Hadith seriously/literally, then we should expect that the Muslims will treat the Messiah for them the same way that the Jews treated their Messiah. Indeed, that Hadith says at the end - just like the Jews were split into 72 (all wrongly rejecting the Messiah) so will the Muslims be split into 73 (72 on the path to hell, one - the minority - who are on the right path). Only a small minority of Jews accepted Jesus - and these would be the 73rd group among Jews.

Cheers,

Shafique

shafique wrote: Christians and Muslims both believe that this was fulfilled in the person of the Prophet Yahya (John the Baptist).

That's the first time I'm hearing and I'm a muslim lol. Not sure about the Christians. I mean Elijah being reborn in the form of John the Baptist.

shafique wrote:Jews who reject Jesus say that Elijah did not literally return, therefore Jesus cannot be the Messiah. Elijah is Elias in the Quran - and if you

In my talk with the couple of Jews I got to know, that reason never came up. The usual reason they gave was that Jesus (pbuh) didn't fulfill the mission [emphasis mine] of the Messiah.

Read their main reason on Jewish faq http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm#Jesus

shafique wrote:Not some, a few or most - but in Arabic it is 'all the errors'.

In arabic it is not all errors. In arabic it simply a figure of speech of warning somebody you will fall into same errors as your brother, doesn't necessarly mean it will be exactly all the errors and exactly the same way.

That is the problem I see with this point of view and logic, it is taking one hadith in strictly literal sense and in a particular specfic way; while other hadiths and part of that hadith about the return of Jesus (p) it doesn't want to take certain parts literally that doesn't fit that view. Can't have cake and eat it too.

And Jews of Madina were waiting for a Prophet too, but they didn't follow him either when he came. The reason in the Quran is not in that line of reasoning:

And when they (a group of Christians who came to the Prophet) listen to what has been sent down to the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), you see their eyes overflowing with tears because of the truth they have recognised. They say: "Our Lord! We believe; so write us down among the witnesses.

And why should we not believe in Allah and in that which has come to us of the truth (Islamic Monotheism)? And we wish that our Lord will admit us (in Paradise on the Day of Resurrection) along with the righteous people (Prophet Muhammad SAW and his Companions radhiallahu'anhu)." So because of what they said, Allah rewarded them Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise), they will abide therein forever. Such is the reward of good-doers.But those who disbelieved and belied Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), they shall be the dwellers of the (Hell) Fire) 5:83-86

And these guys were not even waiting for a Prophet like the Jews of Madina.

Another example which is from the Jinns:

"Say (O' Muhammed): It has been revealed to me that a group of Jinn listened and said; 'Indeed we have heard a marvellous Qur'an. It guides unto righteousness so we have believed in it, and we will never make partners with our lord'"
(Surah Al-Jinn 72:1-2)

That is in complete contrast with the prophecy this and that and that... I believe you know what I mean.

shafique wrote:so will the Muslims be split into 73

That hadith or its variation mentions Christian who did follow Jesus as Messiah, which the quote conveniently ignores. Anyhow, as I mentioned before, that is a figure of speech 73 is not a literal number to be taken. I've lot to do and don't have time for a lengthy discussion. We have to agree to disagree. But if you want a detailed discussion I recommend you go on the forum I gave and discuss it with Ron or/and Ihsan. Both are highly knowledgeable in Arabic and hadith. And articulation has never been my strong point, and they would probably articulate it better.

ciao

Nucleus. You believe that Jesus was the messiah for the Jews don't you? You believe that Yahya was a prophet as well. Well, if you look up what the Bible says about Yahya fulfilling the prophecy of the second coming of Elijah, and then ask other Muslims whether we believe in this too (that all prophecies concerning the Jewish Messiah were fulfilled in Jesus) - then you'll find out that we are all in agreement. However, if there are Muslims who don't believe in this - let me know and I'll stand corrected.

The point about the 72 sects is not the literal number 72 - but the fact that the Prophet, pbuh, says the Muslims will also be split like the Jews AND that all but ONE of the sects in Islam would be hell-bound. For me it is clear - the majority of Jews rejected Jesus, only a minority accepted him. The majority of Muslims therefore would reject the Messiah when he comes, and use the same excuses the Jews made. Only the one out of 73 will be on the right path - the majority will be on path to hell (according to this hadith).

There are some that argue that the ONE may be the majority, and the 72 may all be the minority - but this does not make sense, as the comparison is with the Jews who were in 72 sects - all of them at that stage having rejected their messiah.

So - I agree with you that 72 can be a figure of speech - talking of many.

Cheers,

Shafique

shafique wrote: You believe that Jesus was the messiah for the Jews don't you?

Yes, but because Quran mentions him as Messiah. Reason for that title is not given but purpose of sending him to the Jews is given.

shafique wrote: Well, if you look up what the Bible says about Yahya fulfilling the prophecy of the second coming of Elijah, and then ask other Muslims whether we believe in this too (that all prophecies concerning the Jewish Messiah were fulfilled in Jesus)

I don't really see the point of that since I don't know that part of Bible is entirely true.

shafique wrote:Muslims will also be split like the Jews AND that all but ONE of the sects in Islam would be hell-bound.

Hell-bound is another topic to entangle. I short, in my understanding it is NOT that there is will be this one sect in heaven and all will be in hell except that particular one. But I don't have time for this, I recommend you take it to the other forum.

But back to the topic, the hadith mentions Christians also. Here is the hadith in different narrations:

“The Jews were divided among themselves into seventy one or seventy two sects, and the Christians were divided among themselves into seventy one or seventy two sects. And My Ummah will be divided among itself into seventy three sects.” Abu Dawood, at-Tirmidhi, al-Hakim and Ahmad among several others, reported this Hadith. At-Tirmidhi said; “Hadeethun Hassanun Sahih”.

In another variation, Imam Ahmad recorded that Abu `Amir `Abdullah bin Luhay said; "We performed Hajj with Mu`awiyah bin Abi Sufyan. When we arrived at Makkah, he stood up after praying Dhuhr and said; ‘The Messenger of Allah (SalAllahu alaihi wasallam) said;

إِنَّ أَهْلَ الْكِتَابَيْنِ افْتَرَقُوا فِي دِينِهِمْ عَلى ثِنْتَيْنِ وَسَبْعِينَ مِلَّةً، وَإِنَّ هذِهِ الْأُمَّةَ سَتَفْتَرِقُ عَلى ثَلَاثٍ وَسَبْعِينَ مِلَّةً يَعْنِي الْأَهْوَاءَ كُلُّهَا فِي النَّارِ إِلَّا وَاحِدَةً وَهِيَ الْجَمَاعَةُ وَإِنَّهُ سَيَخْرُجُ فِي أُمَّتِي أَقْوَامٌ تَجَارَى بِهِمْ تِلْكَ الْأَهْوَاءُ كَمَا يَتَجَارَى الْكَلَبُ بِصَاحِبِه، لَا يَبْقَى مِنْهُ عِرْقٌ وَلَا مَفْصِلٌ إِلَّا دَخَلَه
‘The People of the Two Scriptures divided into seventy-two sects. This Ummah will divide into seventy-three sects, all in the Fire except one, that is, the Jama’ah. Some of my Ummah will be guided by desire, like one who is infected by rabies; no vein or joint will be saved from these desires.’’”
This hadith was also narrated by Abu Dawood (2/503), Ahmad (4/102) and al-Haakim (1/128) among others, with similar wording.

Pay attention to the bold parts.

Then we have a problem of two messiah, 3, or maybe more. Ahmadiyyah believe Mirza Gulam was the Messiah. Bahai believe it was Bahlullah, and then even have re-enactment of crucifixion scenario. Nation of Islam believes it was Alijah Muhammad. I'm gonna leave at that. Adios!

Well, it appears that you wish to sidestep the issue of how Yahya fulfils the prophecies in the OT as Christians and Muslims believe. The point is that in his case, he fulfilled a prophecy of a Prophet who supposedly was taken bodily to heaven and was prophecised to return - and the Jews take this prophecy literally, and use this as a sign to reject Jesus.

This is an error, and one that Muslims may, or may not, repeat.

For me, it is clear that the prophecies about the signs of the latter days - especially the ones about Dajjal, what he will do and his transport etc are 'obvious'.

Another one that comes to mind is the one where it says his one bright eye (left one) will see riches below the earth and he will exploit these riches. The right eye will be all shrivelled up. I tend to agree with the interpretation that this means he will be bereft of spiritual sight - but materialistically will be very 'rich'.

I don't think Dajjal is a person though - just like the donkey isn't really a donkey.

Cheers,

Shafique

shafique wrote:Well, it appears that you wish to sidestep the issue of how Yahya fulfils the prophecies in the OT as Christians and Muslims believe.

So muslim believe Yahya was rebirth of Elijah? Wow, just wow! Muslims don't believe that to my knowledge. Why don't you discuss this on an Islamic forum? Forum I mentioned, is welcoming of views that they don't agree with. It has some knowledgeable muslims like Ron and they will give their views on the issue. DocW(he is a doctor in UK) very nice guy. Don't accuse me for side stepping the issue when you don't want to discuss in detail in the right place.

shafique wrote: Jews take this prophecy literally

And you are taking the hadith of Muslim resembling the Jews literally, while ignoring the same part of the hadith that explains what Prophet meant. While you ignore other hadith that goes against this pov. Hadith mentions Dajjal will show up while there will be extreme drought. Jesus will decedent from sky, doesn't say it he will be reborn. Further more, it says Jesus will kill Dajjal at the gate of Lodd in Isreal. You are taking a part that suits your pov literally, while ignoring so many others that goes against it. That looks like inconsistant logic.

shafique wrote:I don't think Dajjal is a person though

What he is then? Civilization?

shafique wrote: just like the donkey isn't really a donkey.

A jet would have made a lot of sense then? It simply means a mode of transportation, people had no concept of jets then.

--- Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:38 pm ---

I don't really see the point of discussing this further here, take it there: http://forums.understanding-islam.com/

Nucleus, these issues are quite straightforward and use logic, and straighforward Hadith and Quranic verses. I don't see any point in me joining another forum to discuss the specific (and to me clear) issues raised in this thread.

We can have a civil discussion and agree to disagree with different views. I have no issue in you taking some Hadith literally and others metaphorically - that is a choice. However, there is no need to mock another persons view or indeed try and twist what they've said. That does not lead to a nice discussion.

I do think that challenging a belief or logic is ok - especially if one holds a different belief - but it should be done respectfully. The other person should have a chance to explain their point of view - and if in the end this is their belief, then all should respect this, even if they hold different views.

Nucleus wrote:So muslim believe Yahya was rebirth of Elijah? Wow, just wow!

Where did I say that?

I said quite clearly that Muslims and Christians believe Jesus was the Messiah for the Jews, and that the prophecy of the second coming of Elijah was fulfilled in the person of the Prophet Yahya, a.s. Elijah dressed in skins and lived in the desert, so did Yahya - but Yahya was not Elijah reincarnated - Christians and Muslims don't believe this.

It is the Jews who do not agree that the prophecy was fulfilled.

Perhaps you can check with 'Ron' on this point and let us know whether he disagrees - rather than mocking a simple verifiable point.

And you are taking the hadith of Muslim resembling the Jews literally

Yes, I am - because the Prophet, pbuh, was emphatic that all the errors of the Jews will be committed by Muslims - to the extent that if a Jew slept with their mother, so a Muslim would sleep with their mother. All sins. No exceptions.

Jesus will decedent from sky, doesn't say it he will be reborn.

The Jews say:

"The Biblical prophecy is that Elijah will descend from the heavens, not that he will be reborn". Muslims and Christians (and Jesus) say otherwise.

The Jews also say that their Messiah needed to fight the oppressors and literally give them the keys to paradise on earth. They expected their Messiah to fight, literally, but he didn't. Were they right?

If the Hadith is right, then some Muslims will reject the Messiah for not fighting - just like the Jews who criticised Jesus. Food for thought?



Incidentally... The Hadith about Dajjal talk about a donkey. You don't take that literally - but interpret this as a plane etc. So why the double standard in other Hadith about the same period? What made you choose one set of Hadith on the subject as literally needing fulfilment (Jesus fighting Jews at Lud's gate, descending from heaven etc). It does not appear that I'm the one using inconsistent logic - or am I?



As for what I think Dajjal is - yes, he isn't a giant person with just one eye who rides a giant donkey. Dajjal is the secular anti-religioun establishment that Noman etc all preach against. Think about what the Prophet, pbuh, said would protect Muslims against the Dajjal. He said that if we recited certain Quranic verses, we'd be protected. Now, when you read those verses and understand the meaning of those verses - we can indeed indentify and protect ourselves from teh Dajjal. Those verses are the first and last 10 of Surah Al Khaf, Ch 18.

Cheers,

Shafique

shafique wrote:Where did I say that?

I said quite clearly that Muslims and Christians believe Jesus was the Messiah for the Jews, and that the prophecy of the second coming of Elijah was fulfilled in the person of the Prophet Yahya, a.s. Elijah dressed in skins and lived in the desert, so did Yahya - but Yahya was not Elijah reincarnated - Christians and Muslims don't believe this.

It is the Jews who do not agree that the prophecy was fulfilled.

Some obscure prohpecy in Bible is not our reason. Like I said, Jesus is mentioned in Quran as messiah -- simple as that. If Quran said he was not messiah then we wouldn't have considered Jesus (p) the messiah. Clear enough?

shafique wrote:Perhaps you can check with 'Ron' on this point and let us know whether he disagrees - rather than mocking a simple verifiable point.

So far I've only seen roundabout arguments, why don't you sumerize your point of view, rather than going the roundabout way and I'll post it on the other forum.

Nucleus wrote:Some obscure prohpecy in Bible is not our reason.

To me the Prophet Yahya and the reasons why the Jews rejected their Messiah is very relevant in a discussion about hadith about Dajjal and the Messiah etc.

I understand you don't want to tackle the simple point - and I fully understand why.

You ask me to summarise my view, ok :

1. The majority of Jews rejected Jesus as Messiah.

2. They rejected him because he didn't pick up a sword and fight the Romans, and he wasn't preceded by the descent of a prophet from heaven - both of which were prophecised in the Bible.

3. Christians and Muslims say the Jews are wrong and that the second coming of Elijah was fulfilled in the person of Yahya/John the Baptist. They also say that the prophecies about him fighting physically were not fulfilled literally - but only metaphorically.

4. The rejection of their Messiah by the majority of Jews is a historical fact, and an error.

(You can check with your sources about all 4 points and let me know if there is anything factually wrong)

5. The Prophet, pbuh, said all the errors of the Jews will be made by Muslims - therefore the majority of Muslims will reject the messiah and expect him to fight physically and expect a prophet to physically descend from heaven. They will argue with the minority who do accept the Messiah - just like the majority of Jews argued with the minority who accepted Jesus.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:To me the Prophet Yahya and the reasons why the Jews rejected their Messiah is very relevant in a discussion about hadith about Dajjal and the Messiah etc.

Why that is relevant to me?

shafique wrote:I understand you don't want to tackle the simple point - and I fully understand why.

Straw Man. If there is any relavance I'll discuss but to me that has no relevance, since we don't believe in Jesus as Messiah for that reason.

shafique wrote:second coming of Elijah was fulfilled in the person of Yahya/John the Baptist.

I checked with a Christian friend I know, he said there is difference of opinion among Christians. Some denominations belicve this and some don't. So it is not a clear argument even among Christians.

shafique wrote:You ask me to summarise my view, ok :

1. The majority of Jews rejected Jesus as Messiah.

2. They rejected him because he didn't pick up a sword and fight the Romans, and he wasn't preceded by the descent of a prophet from heaven - both of which were prophecised in the Bible.

3. Christians and Muslims say the Jews are wrong and that the second coming of Elijah was fulfilled in the person of Yahya/John the Baptist. They also say that the prophecies about him fighting physically were not fulfilled literally - but only metaphorically.

4. The rejection of their Messiah by the majority of Jews is a historical fact, and an error.

(You can check with your sources about all 4 points and let me know if there is anything factually wrong)

5. The Prophet, pbuh, said all the errors of the Jews will be made by Muslims - therefore the majority of Muslims will reject the messiah and expect him to fight physically and expect a prophet to physically descend from heaven. They will argue with the minority who do accept the Messiah - just like the majority of Jews argued with the minority who accepted Jesus.

Still some thing is not clear. So you believe majority of muslims will miss on the messiah who may or may not have come, or even may passed. Is that correct?

chill out guys , and focus on your personal good conducts and worship , I would suggest that we avoid driftting from the pillars of islamic religion, the( fittna ) starts when people start speculation and interpret the islamic scripts according to thier imaginary world.

I would focus on paying charity , and maybe learning the quran by heart instead of being worried of the man's appearance. talking about him will never delay and prevent his appearance. by the way, the prophecy also states that the one-eyed man wont be able to enter Makka and Maddina.

The muslim world is being prepared now to be ruled by a single entity anyway, the same unknown power that has been already ruling most of the western world for quite sometimes now. perhaps its called ( Dimocracy)?? ,or the new world order ? anyway major muslim countries are already preparing themselves to be in compliance with the new system. only when the new world order is in place, only then, when conditions are prefect ;the man will appear officially. this is only my modest opinion.

inshallah by then, its not your generation that will have to confront him, its most probebly the weaker generations ( ipot, blackberry generations) which can easily bow down to the man. they would probebly bow down to him if he come out now.

I would suggest that muslims stay united and commit to raise better generations to sustain the worship of Allah on the planet earth until the end.

mesheditor wrote:chill out guys , and focus on your personal good conducts and worship , I would suggest that we avoid driftting from the pillars of islamic religion, the( fittna ) starts when people start speculation and interpret the islamic scripts according to thier imaginary world.

I would focus on paying charity , and maybe learning the quran by heart instead of being worried of the man's appearance.

My thoughts exactly.

--- Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:19 pm ---

shafique wrote:To me the Prophet Yahya and the reasons why the Jews rejected their Messiah is very relevant in a discussion about hadith about Dajjal and the Messiah etc.

And I remember, that is not the reason Jews give, I even gave you Jewish FAQ site. So you can believe that this was the reason but that is not what Jews say.

First let me state that my aim is not to offend or argue senselessly. If you feel offended or think I am over-stepping the mark, please let me know - that is not my intention.

I sometimes do state things to make people think - but I aim to be respectful and to at least explain my logic.

What the state of the Ummah will be in the latter days, the presence of the Dajjal and the remedies for the Muslim ummah are very important topics. IMO the injunction to recite the verses of Surah Kahf - first and last 10 verses - are crucial to this discussion. As this puts into context what the Prophet, pbuh, was saying to us to do in this time. That contains all the instructions we need - and gives us insights into what actually the Dajjal is and what practically we can do to combat it/him.

The discussion over whether the prophecies should be taken literally or metaphorically is where we seem to have a difference of opinion. I respect that you have a different view - but indulge me as I explain my view and the evidence I use to support it...

Nucleus wrote:Still some thing is not clear. So you believe majority of muslims will miss on the messiah who may or may not have come, or even may passed. Is that correct?

Let me start with this.

The point is that if Muslims are to commit all the same errors that Jews committed, then this is indeed the logical conclusion. For we all agree that the majority of the Jews did reject the Messiah. This would say that when the Messiah comes, the majority of the Muslims will be on the wrong path - and indeed, this is indeed what the Prophet, pbuh, stated the Ummah would be like - even saying that the majority (72 sects) will be hell bound.

So for me the choice is clear - either the Prophet, pbuh, is right and the majority Muslims will reject the messiah like the Jews did (and perhaps use the same excuses of wanting literal prophecies, literal wars etc) - or the alternative narrative that the majority of Muslims (who, remember, the majority will be in errant sects at the time) will recognise a spiritual being descending from heaven with 2 angels, who will then pick up a sword and then start killing all the pigs and breaking all the crosses, and then will start a war against the unbelievers and slay a giant at the gates of Lud, before marrying, having children and then finally passing away.

I choose to think that the prophecies of Dajjal and his donkey are metaphorical. I apply the same logic to the prophecies about the Messiah as well. I look to see what the Jews believe and why they rejected their Messiah, and logic tells me that the majority of Muslims will resemble the Jews like two shoes in a pair, as the Prophet, pbuh, prophecised.

(You did ask what I believed.)


As for what your Christian friend told you concerning John the Baptist - I'm very surprised that he informed you that some Christians did not believe Yahya fulfilled the prophecy of the return of Elijah. Jesus teaches this in the Bible:

Matthew 17:10-13:

10 And His disciples asked Him, saying, h"Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?"

11 Jesus answered and said to them, "Indeed, Elijah is coming 2first and will irestore all things. 12 jBut I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise lthe Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands." 13 Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist.

The only dispute is how Yahya fulfilled the prophecy, not whether he fulfilled it. Most Christians don't believe it was 'reincarnation' but rather that John came 'in the spirit' of Elijah.

May I ask to recheck whether your friend really said that some Christians don't believe John the Baptist fulfilled the prophecy of Elijah's return. The Bible is quite categoric on this point.

As for the reasons Jews reject Jesus - not fulfilling the prophecy of Elijah's return is definitely one of the reasons - see the link for a list of reasons given by Jews, which includes:

Was he preceded by Elijah? (Malachi 3:23-24– 4:4-5 in KJV)

http://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/why-j ... rophesies/

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:First let me state that my aim is not to offend or argue senselessly. If you feel offended or think I am over-stepping the mark, please let me know - that is not my intention.

Same here. If I came off as rude or/and offending, I appologize. That was not my intention.

shafique wrote: but I aim to be respectful and to at least explain my logic.

I looked at your logic, and it looks false dictomy to me, I've answered why during the discussion. And you are repeating the same things again and again. But articulation has never been my strong point, I'll post your logic on other forum and see what replies it gets.

shafique wrote:I choose to think that the prophecies of Dajjal and his donkey are metaphorical.

Try same with this one:

shafique wrote:The point is that if Muslims are to commit all the same errors that Jews committed [emphasis mine], then this is indeed the logical conclusion. For we all agree that the majority of the Jews did reject the Messiah. This would say that when the Messiah comes, the majority of the Muslims will be on the wrong path - and indeed, this is indeed what the Prophet, pbuh, stated the Ummah would be like - even saying that the majority (72 sects) will be hell bound.

Important part so what we do?
-----

shafique wrote:May I ask to recheck whether your friend really said that some Christians don't believe John the Baptist fulfilled the prophecy of Elijah's return. The Bible is quite categoric on this point.

Not all denominations believe this, for example: http://www.raptureready.com/featured/duck/dd14.html

So he is right, there is different interpretations of that passage, there are denomination who don't even consider him Elijah in spirit.

But it is more for the people who believe that those prophecies are true without a doubt, no relevance here.

Nucleus wrote:Important part so what we do?

First we take heed to what the Prophet said in the prophecies about the latter days and look at what errors those earlier people committed and ensure we don't repeat them.

Practically, the Prophet also gave us the key to understanding the Dajjal and avoiding his/its influence - Surah Kahf, the first and last 10 verses.

Also, practically, we can examine the various opinions on what the Messiah will be and do - and choose which one of the competing explanations to believe. Whether we agree with those who expect a 2000 year old Israelite prophet to descend in Damascus, fight wars, kill swine etc.. or whether those who say the Messiah will resemble Jesus in the same way Yahya resembled Elijah. Did Jesus physically fight the Romans? Did the priests of Judaism accept Jesus? Do the Jews reject Jesus for not literally fulfilling prophecies etc etc.

Nucleus wrote:So he is right, there is different interpretations of that passage, there are denomination who don't even consider him Elijah in spirit.

The link you gave me said that the author does consider Yahya to have come in the spirit of Elijah:

Luke 1:17 reveals more. When the angel Gabriel told Zacharias about the birth of John the Baptist, Gabriel said John the Baptist will come in the spirit and power of Elijah. John the Baptist didn't come as Elijah. He came in the spirit and power of Elijah.

I therefore am still to come across any Christian that disputes these verses of the Bible - but I can now see that some who believe in Rapture also believe that Elijah will physically return before the second coming of Jesus. I think that's for Christians to debate amongst themselves - those believing in Rapture aren't the majority.

My point is that Jesus says in the Bible that John the Baptist fulfilled the earlier prophecy about the return of Elijah - but did so in spirit, not by descending from heaven.

Anyway - food for thought.

Cheers,

Shafique

this post is ok (any objections)? : http://forums.understanding-islam.com/s ... rn-Messiah

Read the later part:

Jesus would have accepted John’s coming in the spirit and power of Elijah as a fulfillment of the prophecy if the Jews had accepted Jesus as their King and believed that the kingdom had arrived. But the Jews didn’t do that. The “IF” didn’t happen. John the Baptist was killed. Jesus was killed. And the kingdom wasn’t established.

So Jesus didn’t accept John the Baptist as the coming of Elijah. And that’s exactly what John the Baptist said when the priests and Levites asked him “Art thou Elias” (John 1:21). He said, “I am not.”

It says he (pbuh) would have, but he didn't.

Nucleus, the point is that the article actually argues that Yahya DID fulfil the prophecy - but in this case it says it only PARTIALLY fulfilled the prophecy. Read it again - they are merely arguing that they believe Elijah will indeed descend, but this time with Jesus.

Jesus himself says in the Bible that Yahya came in the spirit of Elijah - your extract is saying that this statement is 'conditional' according to them. Perhaps you may be convinced with this logic, but in my experience all the Christians I've encountered take Jesus at his word in Matthew 17:

12 But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise lthe Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands." 13 Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist.

Pretty clear.

But this is moot - let's agree that most Christians and Muslims agree that Elijah NOT descending from heaven as the prophecies is NOT a valid argument for the Jews to reject Jesus, as they believe Jesus when he said Yahya fufilled this prophecy, but not literally. Indeed, your article supports the Jews who say that Elijah didn't descend, and therefore they are right to reject Jesus - as these guys say that the Jews can only accept Jesus AFTER Elijah does come down. (Rapture believers have a number of similar beliefs which I view as illogical).

But let's leave that to one side.



Let's come back to identification of the Dajjal - as this is what this thread is about.

Do you agree with the Hadith which state that Muslims should recite first 10 verses of Surah Kahf (some Hadith also say last 10 as well) - to be protected from the Dajjal? I don't believe this is just a 'magic formula' - but rather a message that if we read, understand and implement what is in these verses, we will be protected from the Dajjal.

What is your view on these verses and this Hadith?

For me, it seems that the first 10 verses is emphasising that the Christian belief that Jesus is son of God is wrong. Given that the Prophet, pbuh, has linked this to the Dajjal - does this not support the view in the OP that the Dajjal may be linked to Christian 'civilisation'? (Just asking the question..)

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Nucleus, the point is that the article actually argues that Yahya DID fulfil the prophecy - but in this case it says it only PARTIALLY fulfilled the prophecy.

Shaf that is between you and Christians who don't believe like that. It has no bearing on me, since I don't base my faith on Bible and neither consider everything in Bible to be true.

shafique wrote:Do you agree with the Hadith which state that Muslims should recite first 10 verses of Surah Kahf (some Hadith also say last 10 as well) - to be protected from the Dajjal?

Hadith is weak in chain of narrations. But there is nothing wrong in reciting those verses, just in case.

shafique wrote:I don't believe this is just a 'magic formula'

God knows, maybe it has some barakah (blessings).

shafique wrote: understand and implement what is in these verses

I agree, but probably I won't agree with your understanding.

shafique wrote:For me, it seems that the first 10 verses is emphasising that the Christian belief that Jesus is son of God is wrong. Given that the Prophet, pbuh, has linked this to the Dajjal - does this not support the view in the OP that the Dajjal may be linked to Christian 'civilisation'? (Just asking the question..)

(1) Christian civiliation that believed in Jesus as son of God was there already before Prophet (p). If it was that then he would have said it is them or their later civilization. But he said no such thing.
(2) That warning about belief "in son of God" is in other places in the Quran too, it is not unique to those 10 verses.
(3) Not everything fits Christian civilization e.g. they also remember God, pray to God, and look for afterlife.
So I don't agree with you there. But important part, in my opinion, in those 10 verses is the prayer of asking God to grant us his mercy and guidance "Our Lord, grant us from Yourself mercy and prepare for us from our affair right guidance."

There are couple of things going in both first and last verses of that chapter: don't ascribe partners to God and things we have no knowledge of, this world is a test for our deeds and temporary, there will be a day of judgement and we'll held accountable for our deeds, and remember God and ask for his mercy and guidance.

One thing that is there, and it maybe be another place too is that those who are doing good deeds without faith will have no importance in afterlife. Perhaps because they are not looking for afterlife and they will get according to what they were working for (this world only). Disclaimer: I may not have proper understanding of this verse.

Whether it is for a civilization, a figure, or in general; muslims are suppose to practice these anyway, so they are a good reminder. I don't agree with your specific interpretation, but lets not lose forest for the trees, they are a good reminder for ourselves anyways.

Nucleus ,

Nucleus wrote: But no need to speculate on it, when it will come it will be obvious

Sorry, I can't agree with you. Prophet (s.) predicted that When Dajjal will appear most of the people including my ummah will slavery to him. Will you slavery to dajjal if you know him so easily od it is obvious to you he is dajjal.

shafique wrote:Also, practically, we can examine the various opinions on what the Messiah will be and do - and choose which one of the competing explanations to believe.

Like which? You have one in mind? Don't tell me you are the messiah.

--- Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:50 am ---

sumonht1990 wrote:Sorry, I can't agree with you.

To each to their own.

Well, each does have to make their own choices.

One can choose to dismiss the many Hadith which the Prophet, pbuh, made about the Dajjal, latter days and the state of the Ummah at that time.

The prophecies about the Dajjal are quite explicit and have come true - and yet I find it a little odd that we can discuss the Hadith about the identity of the Dajjal and the donkey of Dajjal, but can be quite dismissive about a Hadith about reciting the 10 verses of Surah Kahf.

Why these verses in particular? And why for protection against the Dajjal?



Also, it is worthy to note that the Prophet, pbuh, was quite clear about the state of the Ummah in the latter days. He said that the Muslims will be divided, and that the ulema (scholars) will be the worst of the worst. This again shows the similarity of the state of the Muslims with that of the Jews when their Messiah came. The Jewish scholars and priests all opposed the Messiah when he came to them.



I can imagine that there were many Jews at the time of Jesus who said to the early Christians - 'why should we follow someone who did not fulfil prophecies, we'd rather follow what the Torah tells us and continue to follow our priests'. Indeed, the Jews still say this today!



Cheers,

Shafique

--- Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:03 am ---

As for what God says in Surah Al Kahf in the opening 10 verses... you seem to be quite judgemental:

Nucleus wrote:I agree, but probably I won't agree with your understanding.

What is your understanding and why do you think I will differ on this. God's words are quite clear - He's talking about Christians and their belief of Jesus' divinity. Do you have a different understanding?

shafique wrote:One can choose to dismiss the many Hadith which the Prophet, pbuh, made about the Dajjal, latter days and the state of the Ummah at that time.

My thoughts exactly to ignore parts, or take them out of context to fit their view

I haven't ignored or dismissed any of the Hadith.

We started with agreement about the Hadith about the Donkey being a metaphorical description. I've maintained that view when it comes to the Dajjal itself, but haven't agreed with you that the explicit Hadith about the Muslims and Jews resembling two shoes should be taken metaphorically.

But on the Dajjal Hadith, what parts do you think I'm ignoring? (I think I've addressed the explicit prophecies about Dajjal and Messiah fighting wars etc and compared that with the explicit prophecies that the Jewish Messiah would do the same. Jesus didn't fight and the Jews rejected him for not fulfilling this (and other) prophecy explicitly. This is not to ignore any Hadith though.)

Cheers,

Shafique