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So are you saying a Western educated Asian, Indian, Arab or whatever would get paid less?

As a personal opinion, i belive company pays for who fits best to theri needs, despite color or race.

Companies are not a raciest group, but a money making machines.

Why the hell they would pay a european 6x more just to have white or blonde person in the organization instead of black, dark or asian???

Makes no sense to me.

I think Qualifications is #1
and btw, it is not one is better than the other, but one is more suitable for the position than another... thats it, also the harmony inside the organization is important.

Lets stop worry about who making more and who got more opportunities and worry about What is best for ME as a person, and for sure this will benfit the whole society as the person is the core cell of it.


Zapata,
Education in Egypt can cost you from 5 USD per year (yes 5 $) thats what i paid it and got the reciept if you want to check it , to 20,000 $ a year

All levels are there and you have the choice if you got the money, and note that it is not the higher you pay, the easier you get it
The highest price you pay in Egypt is in a university that was ranked # 9 in all africa (SA uni's are the top) and it is accredited world wide.
and to get there...... it is not only money, it is marks my friend.

cheers

Thanks. If it is an internationally recognized degree than I fully agree that Egyptians or whoever should be getting equal salary if they have the same years of experience.

Zapata wrote:So are you saying a Western educated Asian, Indian, Arab or whatever would get paid less?

I don't know, they might be if the recruiter is racist and has preconceived notions about the applicant's life, money needs, and work capabilities. Maybe it depends on the nationality of the passport?

Does anyone have experience with this?

Zapata wrote:

Well I am not Egyptian. That being said, Zapata, if you are Mexican like your name would suggest, then you need to look at your own sad example of a country before speaking about other countries.

Now that I got that out my system. Egypt has many internal problems. The American propped dictatorship of Hosni Mubarak just exacerbates the matter.

Nope. Not Mexican. Mexico is clearly fvcked up. It's fvcked and the Mexicans have nobody to blame but themselves.

Actually, just stirring some shite here really. I agree that it is not so black and white. Westerners enjoy certain priveledges to this day because of the successful rape and pillage of the planet in years past. But, they did have the balls and the ambition to do it (however barbaric it may have been). So they reap the benefits.

Back to stirring the pot though. How much does a university education cost in Egypt? How difficult is it to get the degree? How knowledgeable are graduates? Is it on an international level? If the answers to these questions are not good does it surprise you, or should it offend you, that an Egyptian would earn less than a "Western" graduate?

i dont know about the education system in egypt...but the education system in India is very strong...but still Indians are paid much less than their western counterparts....and the only reason i see is that they are ready to work for less....and if a good employee is ready to work for less than why would a company pay higher...i think people shud stand for what they deserve....if they accept whatever comes just thinking its good enough for me considering my country of origin...thing will always be like this...

cadmus wrote:

Zapata wrote:

Well I am not Egyptian. That being said, Zapata, if you are Mexican like your name would suggest, then you need to look at your own sad example of a country before speaking about other countries.

Now that I got that out my system. Egypt has many internal problems. The American propped dictatorship of Hosni Mubarak just exacerbates the matter.

Nope. Not Mexican. Mexico is clearly fvcked up. It's fvcked and the Mexicans have nobody to blame but themselves.

Actually, just stirring some shite here really. I agree that it is not so black and white. Westerners enjoy certain priveledges to this day because of the successful rape and pillage of the planet in years past. But, they did have the balls and the ambition to do it (however barbaric it may have been). So they reap the benefits.

Back to stirring the pot though. How much does a university education cost in Egypt? How difficult is it to get the degree? How knowledgeable are graduates? Is it on an international level? If the answers to these questions are not good does it surprise you, or should it offend you, that an Egyptian would earn less than a "Western" graduate?

i dont know about the education system in egypt...but the education system in India is very strong...but still Indians are paid much less than their western counterparts....and the only reason i see is that they are ready to work for less....and if a good employee is ready to work for less than why would a company pay higher...i think people shud stand for what they deserve....if they accept whatever comes just thinking its good enough for me considering my country of origin...thing will always be like this...

Good point Cadmus!

kanelli wrote:

Zapata wrote:So are you saying a Western educated Asian, Indian, Arab or whatever would get paid less?

I don't know, they might be if the recruiter is racist and has preconceived notions about the applicant's life, money needs, and work capabilities. Maybe it depends on the nationality of the passport?

Does anyone have experience with this?

you dont have to look far... i am now working for the last two years in a position where a british guy worked for 6 months.. he was fired because it was found out after 6 months that he didnt have the required qualifications and skills for the job...

now listen to this... me being an asian.. i am drawing 1/3 of his salary..but my boss is pleased with my work... he is scottish..he expresses his inability to go against the norms....it is an irony that i cant match half the salary of the british guy.

boss.... r u around

I personally do not consider this as unfair because:

Europeans are already getting paid well in Europe and they will [b]not[/b] take a job in countries as far as the Middle East if the pay is not BETTER than what they already get! Same goes for Americans. So companies have to pay them that much otherwise nobody would bother to come. And i think that employers would definitely prefer to pay westerners less if they had the choice! but they don't! Europeans have high demands.

Companies prefer to hire westeners because (1) universities in Europe and the US are 'considered' to be better than other unis.
(2) the Employer is a westerner and he prefers to hire westerners thinking that they would share a better understanding
(3) they have prior experience (plus education) in fields in countries famous for these fields (such as Engineering in Germany, Hotel Management in Switzerland, Medicine in the US, etc.)

As for (expat) Arabs and Asians, if they got better salaries in their home countries they wouldn't come to Dubai from the first place. And they are still ready to work for salaries less than their European counterparts. Employers are aware of that.

So if you think you are not treated fair, and that in your home country you can get better pay and appreciation, then why are you still in the UAE? Whatever you are getting is the best you were able to get. So stop complaining and just be grateful for what you get. And don't compare yourself abroad to western employees because you can't compare the gerneral wages earned in your home country to those earned in Europe and the US!

As for the exploited labour workers who get wages less than what they were promised before coming to Dubai, and less that what they would actually get back home: this is another issue.

Your post is like saying, well if you end up with one broken leg in Dubai instead of the two you would have back home, then you are in a better position and it would be fair to you....

No, untrue. Why even get one broken leg?

If the person is competant, has the education from an acredited university, speaks proper english and/or arabic, is presentable, etc... Then it should be equal footing.

Lemmi simplify it even more for you:

A woman earning less than a man in the West. Is that OK? Is that fair??

Well the same applies here.

katy wrote:I personally do not consider this as unfair because:

Europeans are already getting paid well in Europe and they will not take a job in countries as far as the Middle East if the pay is not BETTER than what they already get! Same goes for Americans. So companies have to pay them that much otherwise nobody would bother to come. And i think that employers would definitely prefer to pay westerners less if they had the choice! but they don't! Europeans have high demands.

Companies prefer to hire westeners because (1) universities in Europe and the US are 'considered' to be better than other unis.
(2) the Employer is a westerner and he prefers to hire westerners thinking that they would share a better understanding
(3) they have prior experience (plus education) in fields in countries famous for these fields (such as Engineering in Germany, Hotel Management in Switzerland, Medicine in the US, etc.)

As for (expat) Arabs and Asians, if they got better salaries in their home countries they wouldn't come to Dubai from the first place. And they are still ready to work for salaries less than their European counterparts. Employers are aware of that.

So if you think you are not treated fair, and that in your home country you can get better pay and appreciation, then why are you still in the UAE? Whatever you are getting is the best you were able to get. So stop complaining and just be grateful for what you get. And don't compare yourself abroad to western employees because you can't compare the gerneral wages earned in your home country to those earned in Europe and the US!

As for the exploited labour workers who get wages less than what they were promised before coming to Dubai, and less that what they would actually get back home: this is another issue.

i beg to differ on the standard of education issue...i think the standard of education is very good in India...if not better it's equal to the western unives. i formyself had option of joining reputated institutes in US...but still i opted to stay in my own country and study there...and during the period of my education i have come across many students from ivy leauge institutes and believe students from indian institutes like IIT's and IIM's are no less then these guys...
i have seen students from St. Gallen's, EBS (germany), ESC france finding it difficult to survive during exchange programs in these Indian institutes....
so it's not about where you come from...its about what you are ready to take...it's about believing in yourself...if you are ready to take less you will get less....if you think you deserve more...you will get more....

I think human beings are very reasonable...they give you only that much shit as you ask for

[quote="Liban"]Your post is like saying, well if you end up with one broken leg in Dubai instead of the two you would have back home, then you are in a better position and it would be fair to you....

No, untrue. Why even get one broken leg?

If the person is competant, has the education from an acredited university, speaks proper english and/or arabic, is presentable, etc... Then it should be equal footing.

Lemmi simplify it even more for you:

A woman earning less than a man in the West. Is that OK? Is that fair??

Well the same applies here.[/quote]

Liban, even though i would be repeating myself here, i'll explain again. Employers in the UAE WISH they could pay Westerners less. But they are FORCED to pay more so that they would WIN them over! If they also got 'not-so-high' wages in the West, then UAE employers would also pay them 'not-so-high' wages but still a bit higher than what they get back home.

Yes it's true there are very competent and well-educated Arabs and Asians, but it is known that it is in the West where most developments take place. This is widely known and is undisputable. That's why experience and education gained there is highly appreciated.

As for women earning less in the West. This issue is being intensively dealt with. there ARE no reasons for women to be paid less. That is why this problem is 'almost' inexistent.

Still doesn't justify what is happening.

[quote="cadmus"]

i beg to differ on the standard of education issue...i think the standard of education is very good in India...if not better it's equal to the western unives. i formyself had option of joining reputated institutes in US...but still i opted to stay in my own country and study there...and during the period of my education i have come across many students from ivy leauge institutes and believe students from indian institutes like IIT's and IIM's are no less then these guys...
i have seen students from St. Gallen's, EBS (germany), ESC france finding it difficult to survive during exchange programs in these Indian institutes....
so it's not about where you come from...its about what you are ready to take...it's about believing in yourself...if you are ready to take less you will get less....if you think you deserve more...you will get more....

I think human beings are very reasonable...they give you only that much shit as you ask for[/quote]

Definitely. Indian institutes of education are of a different case. Here in Germany Indian IT experts are considered the best. And because of this reputation (which Indians earned by proving), some employers even prefer Indian IT experts to German.

I have to agree with Katy.

With regard to the salary issue in particular. I know you guys think you are the dogs nuts if you are on say 15-20k Dhs, but in relation to the equiv UK salary then you merely earn a average UK salary.

The only differential is that we are subject to tax and national insurance.

A prof well qualified expat would expect to maintain that salary level/standard of living.

At the end of the day its just all relative. Like Katy correctly said, they are hardly going to offer the equiv salary for example to an Indian even with the same qualifications, when the salary differential between say the UK and India are light years apart.

Liban,
One point:
once you tell me that the economy in YOUR country is well-off, employees are happy and are earning what they deserve, then we will start talking about the situation of expats from your country.
The problem is in your country not the host. If your 'own' country is not giving u what you want, why should the employer abroad give you?

katy wrote:Liban,
One point:
once you tell me that the economy in YOUR country is well-off, employees are happy and are earning what they deserve, then we will start talking about the situation of expats from your country.
The problem is in your country not the host. If your 'own' country is not giving u what you want, why should the employer abroad give you?

Do you know which country I was living and working in before coming here?

I am speaking for others, not myself. My salary is quite respectable and is higher than what I was making where I was before and is considered good by Dubai Western Expat measurements.

Very interesting discussion!

here's my 2dhs worth...not intended to cause offence just to enter into debate...

Not all companies are the same you know...times are changing slowly slowly. The company I work for and it is one of the largest Emirati owned here- pays people based on education and experience...not nationality...so as a westerner/ "white"- as some of you put it- in my grade band there are Indian, Arabic, whatever earning more money than me...I know this is not the norm but it is happening out there! Because they have more qualifications/experience. Try to work for some of the more forward thinking companies if you have a choice.

At the end of the day if we are all earning more than we would earn in our home countries isn't that good?
Aren't conditions better here?
And yes I know about the labourers and taxi drivers conditions and i do feel sorry for them- but would they be any better off at home?

Don't you all think the days of the expat fat cat salaries have come to an end or are drying up? Apart from certain industries which class working here as a hardship posting and very senior level management.

Will be interested to here your thoughts,

Vixnax

Dubai Knight wrote:

Wafaey wrote:Can anyone tell me why there is a double standard salary situation?!!!! One for Europeans and North American citizens and a way lower one for the rest of the world as if they are the scum of the earth !!!!!

Welcome to Dubai!

Try having your own business! That is the 5th and lowest category of all!

Knight

You mean its the first and highest dont you?! Wouldnt want it any other way

jag wrote:

Dubai Knight wrote:

Wafaey wrote:Can anyone tell me why there is a double standard salary situation?!!!! One for Europeans and North American citizens and a way lower one for the rest of the world as if they are the scum of the earth !!!!!

Welcome to Dubai!

Try having your own business! That is the 5th and lowest category of all!

Knight

You mean its the first and highest dont you?! Wouldnt want it any other way

Wouldn't want it any other way either...but would like to get paid from time to time!

Knight

katy wrote:I personally do not consider this as unfair because:

Europeans are already getting paid well in Europe and they will not take a job in countries as far as the Middle East if the pay is not BETTER than what they already get! Same goes for Americans. So companies have to pay them that much otherwise nobody would bother to come. And i think that employers would definitely prefer to pay westerners less if they had the choice! but they don't! Europeans have high demands.

Companies prefer to hire westeners because (1) universities in Europe and the US are 'considered' to be better than other unis.
(2) the Employer is a westerner and he prefers to hire westerners thinking that they would share a better understanding
(3) they have prior experience (plus education) in fields in countries famous for these fields (such as Engineering in Germany, Hotel Management in Switzerland, Medicine in the US, etc.)

As for (expat) Arabs and Asians, if they got better salaries in their home countries they wouldn't come to Dubai from the first place. And they are still ready to work for salaries less than their European counterparts. Employers are aware of that.

So if you think you are not treated fair, and that in your home country you can get better pay and appreciation, then why are you still in the UAE? Whatever you are getting is the best you were able to get. So stop complaining and just be grateful for what you get. And don't compare yourself abroad to western employees because you can't compare the gerneral wages earned in your home country to those earned in Europe and the US!

As for the exploited labour workers who get wages less than what they were promised before coming to Dubai, and less that what they would actually get back home: this is another issue.

I wouldn't totally agree here. Salaries in Dubai should not be based on the general wages from where the workers come from. The expats from India and Pakistan for example are not going to spend their income from their homeland where food, shelter, and clothing are probably much more cheaper- and so the generally lower income from their countries- relative to Dubai. They're going to spend their incomes in Dubai, where the prices of things are the same whether you're white, black, or brown.
So Salaries should not be affected by what your standard of living and thus income in your homeland is because you are now in Dubai, and everyone is paying for the same rates.

yujinn wrote:

katy wrote:I personally do not consider this as unfair because:

Europeans are already getting paid well in Europe and they will not take a job in countries as far as the Middle East if the pay is not BETTER than what they already get! Same goes for Americans. So companies have to pay them that much otherwise nobody would bother to come. And i think that employers would definitely prefer to pay westerners less if they had the choice! but they don't! Europeans have high demands.

Companies prefer to hire westeners because (1) universities in Europe and the US are 'considered' to be better than other unis.
(2) the Employer is a westerner and he prefers to hire westerners thinking that they would share a better understanding
(3) they have prior experience (plus education) in fields in countries famous for these fields (such as Engineering in Germany, Hotel Management in Switzerland, Medicine in the US, etc.)

As for (expat) Arabs and Asians, if they got better salaries in their home countries they wouldn't come to Dubai from the first place. And they are still ready to work for salaries less than their European counterparts. Employers are aware of that.

So if you think you are not treated fair, and that in your home country you can get better pay and appreciation, then why are you still in the UAE? Whatever you are getting is the best you were able to get. So stop complaining and just be grateful for what you get. And don't compare yourself abroad to western employees because you can't compare the gerneral wages earned in your home country to those earned in Europe and the US!

As for the exploited labour workers who get wages less than what they were promised before coming to Dubai, and less that what they would actually get back home: this is another issue.

I wouldn't totally agree here. Salaries in Dubai should not be based on the general wages from where the workers come from. The expats from India and Pakistan for example are not going to spend their income from their homeland where food, shelter, and clothing are probably much more cheaper- and so the generally lower income from their countries- relative to Dubai. They're going to spend their incomes in Dubai, where the prices of things are the same whether you're white, black, or brown.
So Salaries should not be affected by what your standard of living and thus income in your homeland is because you are now in Dubai, and everyone is paying for the same rates.

I second you Yujinn, because we are both paying the same rates for accommodation and everything else.
So Katy can u please tell me why Egyptians whom were taught and have a degree from USA r still paid less ?!

i would say the caliber itself, nothing else.

I'm Egyptian, i'm being paid like anyone else in the organization, educated in Egypt.

It all depends on the company and their policies.


Cheers

^^ i second that...i am Indian...getting paid equal to other nationalities

[quote="Wafaey"]
So Katy can u please tell me why Egyptians whom were taught and have a degree from USA r still paid less ?![/quote]

This is strange. I'm afraid i don't have an answer for that. but this is truly unfair. Where did you gain your work experience? If you also have worked in the USA, then you should not be paid one penny less that an, say, American.
You have to add experience to education.

and then Wafaey, u are still WILLING to work for less, eventhough u are not happy with it! (Most) Americans and Europeans will not accept that.

True some companies pay high for competent people irrespective of nationality. But we are talking about the (major) case when the pay is not equal.

So again i say, the employer has no problem paying certain nationalities less cuz THEY still work no matter what!!!

agree or not?

well katy u r right i give u that why pay more when the can have it for less. but the thing is finally found out that arab and asian employers try to squeeze employees from their homeland.
Concerning westners won't accept less cuz they can simply stay at home and get unemployment support

Exactly. So even the money unemployed 'westerners' get in their homelands (i.e. unemployment benefit) is sometimes more than what Dubai employers pay certain nationalities.

now the BIG problem is, rents in Dubai are hell expensive (SHOCKING!!!!!!). So i am not sure how people will be able to manage pay rent with such low salaries. So living expenses in Dubai are definitely higher than for instance India or Pakistan. So the employer should take this into consideration.
But then again, employers take advantage of people coming from countries where 'unemployment benefit' does not exist, cuz they know that whatever pay they are offering, it would be better than home. And as long as there are still people ACCEPTING this (due to having no better choice!!), there will always be this pay discrimination. Unfortunately.

Solution? you have a job. Paid STILL more than home. Be grateful and don't compare urself to others.. u will just feel bad and unappreciated.

Just chill out man! and enjoy life!!

Wafaey wrote:well katy u r right i give u that why pay more when the can have it for less. but the thing is finally found out that arab and asian employers try to squeeze employees from their homeland.
Concerning westners won't accept less cuz they can simply stay at home and get unemployment support

This is so disgraceful that a person is paid according to the country they belong from... There are no laws (or not enforced) to protect the rights of workers and the government overlooks this because they are protecting their own interests. Still I am not complaining since this country is so young and has achieved more then it could have. Ironically in our minds we start comparing dubai with cities like ny!

Come to reality! Dubai has been made up and its all artificial.... Maybe its going to take another 50 years for the system to become stable and for the city to develop a character!

katy wrote:Exactly. So even the money unemployed 'westerners' get in their homelands (i.e. unemployment benefit) is sometimes more than what Dubai employers pay certain nationalities.

now the BIG problem is, rents in Dubai are hell expensive (SHOCKING!!!!!!). So i am not sure how people will be able to manage pay rent with such low salaries. So living expenses in Dubai are definitely higher than for instance India or Pakistan. So the employer should take this into consideration.
But then again, employers take advantage of people coming from countries where 'unemployment benefit' does not exist, cuz they know that whatever pay they are offering, it would be better than home. And as long as there are still people ACCEPTING this (due to having no better choice!!), there will always be this pay discrimination. Unfortunately.

Solution? you have a job. Paid STILL more than home. Be grateful and don't compare urself to others.. u will just feel bad and unappreciated.

Just chill out man! and enjoy life!!

When u meet me you will know my potenials and then u will know why i'm mad

Liban wrote:My salary and job were offered to me based on my experience. The fact that I am an Arab and a Muslim seemed to influence them much more than any other fact.

Whereever ppl like Liban are there, blatant discrimination will prevail....so to stop this type of discrimination ..... burn him...............Amen