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According to the Bible shame for our naked bodies started when Eve ate the apple (the fruit). Human bodies can be very beautiful though. Some are very proud and want to show it, others take the modest line, and all is to be respected IMO.
During a visit to an archaeological site near the Dead Sea, the guide explained that at this site the first (primitive) weapons were found in the region. I can’t remember the date, but from that time on people fought wars over about anything, and that is what the human race really should be ashamed of. War is dehumanizing, the human body is not.
Don’t get me wrong, for defensive reasons an army is necessary, and I am against unilateral disarment. Still, it is hard for me to understand why any human being can find a weapon ‘beautiful’. Guns are made to kill another human being, this cannot be a beautiful thing. It can be usefull, but not beautiful. Again, I am not against guns, because unfortunately they are necessary.
I would never dream of given my children a gun as a toy. They go to karate and self-defense to be able to defend themselves, but would not allow them to play with toy guns.
And here is something I have really trouble with. As an illustration, nipple gate from Janet Jackson. A whole nation, this was in the US, but could be at many other places in the world, shows a nipple (by accident?), and a whole nation goes wild. In the mean time, we see war at TV, the most violent images are shown. And this is considered pretty much ok. Although, at least in Holland very violent images are only to be shown after a certain time. How can this be?
What went wrong that a naked nipple causes more outcry than human violence???

Fortunately for Muslims, the naked body is a thing of beauty and s.ex is something to be enjoyed.

For Christians the idea that s.ex and the naked body is shameful is actually a feature of European Christianity, and not really something that Jews believe or indeed what we believe Jesus taught.

Original sin, after all, was introduced into Christianity by Augustine.

The Christians on the board who do believe in original sin and the sinfulness of a naked body should answer FD's query.



As for Muslims, one shouldn't mistake the desire to keep the s.ex within a marriage with the European Christian notion that s.ex is bad or ugly, or that there is anything sinful in the beauty of the naked form created by God. That Muslims are taught that a person's beauty is to be cherished and not put on open display for all is a value judgement - but one based on the inherent, God-given beauty and not on any sort of shame. That's a Christian concept alien to us.

Oh, and in relation to violence - again, we must look to reality and not what anti-muslim bloggers and anti-religion authors say about religion in general and Islam in particular. When it comes to violence, Islam is quite clear - to kill one person is like one has killed the whole of mankind (5.32) - and therefore it is in common with pretty much all religions that violence is not justified - and certainly not more scandalous than a stray nipple!

Cheers,
Shafique

Did you actually do any preliminary research before posting that? As far as I know, Muslims are more trained on covering themselves up than anything else. "For Muslims, the naked body is a thing of beauty." Perhaps that should explain all those Muslim girls in malls wearing abaya's and scarfs (the majority of them). I'm a Christian myself, and the statement about Christian's ideology on sex as being "bad and ugly" is plain bullsh1t. I recall the priest talking about sex as a "beautiful thing." I remember glancing at my friends Islamic work book. What I say was "Never wear tight or revealing clothes." Such hypocrites.

prowheels wrote:I'm a Christian myself, and the statement about Christian's ideology on love as being "bad and ugly" is plain bullsh1t.

Really? I'm happy to stand corrected, but my reading of historic teachings of s.ex, celibacy in Christianity is what I wrote above. S.ex in Christian ideology since the time of Augstine and the concept of original sin is well documented.
For example there are books like this:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Body-Society- ... RFC8VN8Q6T

'Body shame' in Christianity brings up scores of articles and references to this being preached from many a pulpit.

On nudity, this is what one Christian says:

How does the Lord feel about nakedness?
It is a sin. Why is it considered a sin? Well, let us define sin. Sin is the transgressing of God's law? In other words, disobedience to His Word is sin. Did He give us any word on how to dress or what He considers as nakedness? Yes He did, and those points are covered above. Now let us look at God's attitude towards nakedness as expressed in the Bible.

http://www.centurionministry.org/body/nakedness.htm



There is also inherent misogynism in the Bible - for example where it says a woman should remain quiet and ask her husband if she doesn't understand is explained by some scholars as a later addition by misogynistic authors - for example Professor Hans Kung. I can refer you to past threads where a Christian here has linked to his book which says this.

Here's the quote from the Bible - 1 Corinthians:

14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

But the historic Church view that s.ex is dirty may be from here - again Corinthians:

7:1 Now with regard to the issues you wrote about: "It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman." 2 But because of immoralities, each man should have relations with his own wife and each woman with her own husband....8 But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I.

Cheers,

Shafique

BM - you're just going to get banned again. You really never learn do you?

(And yes, it is obvious that you're also posting k's family pic as your avatar. I feel sorry for you - you are so bitter and twisted).

Are we talking about old Christianity or modern Christianity? Clearly women are allowed to speak in church and there are female pastors nowadays. Also, Christian countries have a population of women who dress in "more revealing" clothes and se.x before marriage is not as taboo in other cultures with other religions. The US, with its more conservative Christianity have more of an issue with nudity and se.x, though not violence. In Europe they are much more open about nudity and se.x, and are somewhere in between on the violence.

kanelli wrote:Are we talking about old Christianity or modern Christianity?

Christianity before say the 1960s, and dating back to Agustine and Hipo.

Nowadays, the 'official line' - even from the Catholic church is pretty much in line with the Islamic theology - that s.ex and nudity are not inherently shameful and a naked body is not inherently shameful. Pope John Paul II made a speech to clarify this point.

'Body shame' and that s.ex should not be enjoyed etc were teachings of European Christianity for centuries from what I've read. 'Lie back and think of England' referred to this Christian view of marital relationships.

The 60s saw a backlash against this, and the Church has responded.

However, as my previous post shows - the earlier teachings were justified by the Church using scripture and it appeared to me that FD was comparing 'Body Shame' with violence. I was pointing out that the concept of Body Shame is not in Islam, but is (or perhaps I should have said 'was taught') in Christianity.

Cheers,

Shafique

So you think that body shame is not present in Islam? I've met some Muslim women who are upset at children at the swimming pool being naked as they are getting changed.

Yes, body shame does not exist in Islam.

In my first post I was making the point that there is a distinction between a concept of modesty and body shame. The current Christian explanation for Christians to dress modestly, is pretty much what Islam also teaches.

The Christian explanation (backed up by biblical references) was that the naked body was shameful. The revised explanation and Islamic view is that the body is not shameful, but is a beautiful form that should not be put on public display.

It is not because we are ashamed of our bodies or are dis.gusted by seeing flesh. But rather we believe it is garish and counterproductive to share what should be intimate views with others.

For example - a passionate kiss is something that most people can really relate to and lose themselves in. But not all of us want to have this shoved in our faces as we're going about our daily business shopping etc. There's a time and a place for tonsil hockey. By analogy - I would say viewing the human body's beauty etc along the same lines.

Now of course, cultural norms play a very big part - where people are used to seeing naked bodies, this concept that nudity is either shameful or immodest is something that may seem strange. However what religion has taught is that the beauties of the flesh should be kept private - and in the case of Islam, not because of shame. The cultural part of Islamic teachings is that the body should be covered up out of an Islamic sense of modesty.. and that overall this leads to more balance and peace in society. At the very least, I argue, it leads to less objectification of men and women.

Cheers,

Shafique

What do you think about cases where women aren't able to see a doctor if only male doctors are available? I know that doesn't happen everywhere, but it some places it seems to be considered immodest and improper, despite medical need. That is one instance when I can think that body shame can be detrimental to society.

To me there is a difference between seeing a naked body, and seeing a nake body engaged in a se.xual act. A body is just a body and we all have the same parts. Nakedness doesn't automatically lead to objectification in my view.

kanelli wrote:What do you think about cases where women aren't able to see a doctor if only male doctors are available?

It is wrong and counter to what religion teaches about doing no harm - and also counter intuitive and silly.

A chaperone - either a nurse or family member is usually enough, and in any case where medical attention is required, no Muslim should object to a treating doctor giving medical attention.

I'm not personally aware of this being a widespread problem. But I can imagine some extreme examples of it happening somewhere - but this is despite what Islam teaches, I'd argue, rather than because of the teachings. And in the context of this thread, even this extreme view is not out of shame, but an extreme and wrong view of modesty.

I agree that nakedness is not automatically associated with s.ex in some cultures and in some people. But also bear in mind that the argument for modest dress isn't completely and exclusively that it will lead to 'impure thoughts' in everyone. I rather agree with those that says that over-exposure and familiarity desensitizes society to the beauties of the body, and for some it does lead to 'impure thoughts'.

Over all it is better for society if s.ex and the beauties associated with s.ex remain in the bedroom. This is a value judgement taught by religions.

Cheers,
Shafique

Try telling that to many tribes the world over, who basically live their lives in a near naked state. To them it's just the human body, they have no concept of shame or modesty, for them being naked every day is normal. It after all just the body, virtually everyone has the same bits and bobs.

shafique wrote:Now of course, cultural norms play a very big part - where people are used to seeing naked bodies, this concept that nudity is either shameful or immodest is something that may seem strange.

I thought I did cover this point in the bit above.

Each community has to decide what is culturally acceptable - eg some think eating with mouth open and belching is ok and a sign of appreciation of the food, others say it is the height of bad manners.

When it comes to modest dress, religions take a pretty uniform view that society is better off if we cover up. It is a value judgement - and exceptions to the rule don't make the rule invalid overall.

Cheers,

Shafique

My mind bled reading shafique's posts.

He goes on and on on topics he literally knows nothing what he's talking about.