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That is your interpretation Liban, you may think that, i could not possibly comment.

Chocoholic wrote:Lionheart, You say that you want to be given the chance to be tolerant and to welcome people of all faiths and backgrounds? Commendable, but the sad truth is many Islamic nations are constantly proving themselves to be intolerant of anything other than their own ways of life.

Take the Afghani man who converted to Christinanity, they wanted to execute him, and now he's found asylum in Italy, there's uproar as people are saying the Government wimped out and went against Sharia Law etc etc and he should have been put to death - this is not tolerant!

The Iranian whinges and moans about people investigating their nuclear programme and says it's all lovely and why shouldn't they have it and it's only for their own use - yet in the same breath wants to wipe and enitre nation off the face of the planet - this is not tolerant!

You have fanatical Islamic clerics living in western/christian countries sponging off the tax payer and living the life of riley and they're calling for people to murder 'infidels' and crying for thoser countries that have given them shelter, food and a way of life to be disrupted and commending bombings and the killings of innocents - this is not tolerant!

Lionheart, You say that you want to be given the chance to be tolerant and to welcome people of all faiths and backgrounds? Commendable, but the sad truth is many Islamic nations are constantly proving themselves to be intolerant of anything other than their own ways of life.

"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects Taghut (evil) and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trust worthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. " (Qur'an 2:256)


Today's the so-called Islamic nations are intolerent to other muslims just because they happen to be from different race, or happen to poor refugees...so intolerence against Jews or Christian in many muslim so-called countries is problem.. I admite and I'm ashamed of it..because Islam teaches tolerance toward other people of the book. You could see this tolerance in Muslim Ummah's before Western influence in muslim world...Rights of Jews were better protected in Muslim societies than in Christian Europe...this lasted up until the Jews betrayed the muslims by establishing Isreal in 1948...In Bagdad, Damascus, Cardoba during the rule of Ummayad, Christian schoolers, Jewish schoolers and Muslim schoolers studied side by side without the threat of intolerance or persecution...When Christains went on their Crusade to Jerusalam they massacred thuasands of Muslims, Jews and orthodox Christian and their are even cases were they eat flesh of muslims they killed...when Muslims recaptured Jerusalam they did not take revenge against the Crusaders, nor did they destroy their places of Worshipe....only thing Salahuddin( may allah be pleased with him) was to ask the Crusaders to leave Jerusalam..the Orthodox Greek Christians and others where allowed to stay and worshipe as they have done before. So as you can see Intolerance in Muslim countries today did not exist before western Influence, nationalism. When muslim had unity..no borders and were ruled by the Ummah than dictators and ignorant Sheikhs..they were more tolerant.

Take the Afghani man who converted to Christinanity, they wanted to execute him, and now he's found asylum in Italy, there's uproar as people are saying the Government wimped out and went against Sharia Law etc etc and he should have been put to death - this is not tolerant

I spoke against it...and I don't think this law has anything to do with Sharia law. Islam clearly says that there is "no compulsion in religion"..whatever this man chooses to be is between him and god.

The Iranian whinges and moans about people investigating their nuclear programme and says it's all lovely and why shouldn't they have it and it's only for their own use - yet in the same breath wants to wipe and enitre nation off the face of the planet - this is not tolerant!

Is this the same nation that has occuppied, oppressed, evicted Palastinian from their own land...the same nations that broke 67 Un resolution...the same nation that threatens its nieghbors with the blessing of the West...the same nation that disrespects the soveriegnty of its nieghbors by attacking, assisinating citizens of its nieghbors..the same nation that was behind the push to invade Iraq....the same nation that stockpiled 200 nuclear weapons without Interference,inspections from the West... The same country that has leaders who refer to Palastinians as lice that must be exterminated...


Iran on the other hand has never attacked or threatened its nieghbors...It has been attacked by Saddam by the blessing of US...It has been threatened by the US/Isreal for over three decades...

You have fanatical Islamic clerics living in western/christian countries sponging off the tax payer and living the life of riley and they're calling for people to murder 'infidels' and crying for thoser countries that have given them shelter, food and a way of life to be disrupted and commending bombings and the killings of innocents - this is not tolerant

If they don't respect the laws of your land than ask them to leave..

arniegang wrote:

Now I take issue. Who says the 'Forces of Darkness' are the US and Israel? Does the Koran make direct reference to a group or party? Could not the 'Forces of Darkness' be referring to extremists and zealots from within? After all, these are as dangerous, if not more so, than an obvious and blatantly easy target such as the US. These are the enemy you cannot see, the one that sneaks up from behind you in your own home is harder to spot and defend against than the one whose flags and banners are lined up against you in plain view.

It could even be interpreted as the Islamic "Brotherhood" based in Egypt, or Al Queda.

Forces od Darkness are none other than US/British administration who have destroyed a whole country... for their own lust for greed.

Dubai Knight wrote:Lionheart, it's all a question of 'Law'. The Iraqi new constitution is NOT a totally US/British invention imposed upon them without their wishes.

The international community (I would stress that the peacekeeping forces in Iraq are made up from many different countries such as Japan, Spain, Germany, Poland) is working to see a democratically ELECTED government in Iraq. Elected by the Iraqi people for the Iraqi people instead of a dictatorship (Saddam) or a religious dictatorship (Taliban) that ignores the basic human rights and would persecute one or multiple sectors of society.

In order for this to take place, someone has to uphold the basics of international law and order. The interim Iraqi government is not able to do that. Until the elected government (the process and meaning of democracy means that everyone has the right to vote and therefore the government is the appointed body approved by the majority of Iraqis, not the US government) can make mandated decisions, then who will stop the extremists from trying to influence the people of Iraq through terror and violence. You? The Iraqi police?

The model intorduced by the US just happens to be one that has worked for many centuries and also proved itself to be fair for everyone. It has being modified to take into account the specific requirements of an Islamic state, but that modification has been done by the Iraqi government themselves. Until it can be implemented, law and order must be maintained.

For your information...the middle east does not constitute a particularly large profit area for many of the western companies operating here. There are far bigger markets out there. It is supply and demand. People in the Middle East want western products, therefore the demand is there. You can supply products from within your own market, if you made them. That takes time and expertise to learn how. Who makes cars in the middle east? Without Mercedes, Toyota, Nissan, Tata and General Motors where would you be?

Knight

Lionheart, it's all a question of 'Law'. The Iraqi new constitution is NOT a totally US/British invention imposed upon them without their wishes.

Iraq is occuppayed land..so any constitution written under the occuppation is imposed on Iraq people.

The international community (I would stress that the peacekeeping forces in Iraq are made up from many different countries such as Japan, Spain, Germany, Poland) is working to see a democratically ELECTED government in Iraq. Elected by the Iraqi people for the Iraqi people instead of a dictatorship (Saddam) or a religious dictatorship (Taliban) that ignores the basic human rights and would persecute one or multiple sectors of society.

I agree with you any government Iraqis vote for should be respected by everyone... Even if it happens to be a Taliabn style of government.

For your information...the middle east does not constitute a particularly large profit area for many of the western companies operating here. There are far bigger markets out there. It is supply and demand. People in the Middle East want western products, therefore the demand is there. You can supply products from within your own market, if you made them. That takes time and expertise to learn how. Who makes cars in the middle east? Without Mercedes, Toyota, Nissan, Tata and General Motors where would you be?

If Middle east does not constitude a large market than why is the west in particulary the US so interested in the MIddle east...Why not wage war, occupay China, India the largest markets in the World...

Liban, you say that things are predicted in the Koran. But ever heard of the Bible code? In the original text, Aramaic - I think - it was discovered that events in history were predicted down the the tiniest detail. Sadly scholars have only managed to find the details after the event has happened and haven't yet cracked the code which would enable them to predict future events.

Lionheart, humans and other animals have the instinct to stick to their own kind. All across the world there is division because of regionalism, nationalism, racism, classism, religion etc. To say that the West is the cause for this in the Middle East is false. Once again, the West is being blamed for everything.

Chocoholic wrote:Liban, you say that things are predicted in the Koran. But ever heard of the Bible code? In the original text, Aramaic - I think - it was discovered that events in history were predicted down the the tiniest detail. Sadly scholars have only managed to find the details after the event has happened and haven't yet cracked the code which would enable them to predict future events.

In the Quran, the specifics are in code. When the event happens and you re-read the section in the Quran dealing with such events, it all becomes clear, down to the minutia of it.

You refer to the dead sea scrolls? The real original bible was destroyed 1000 years ago.

arniegang wrote:That is your interpretation Liban, you may think that, i could not possibly comment.

What you perceive as interpretation is mere fact. Sadly, blindness has become you.

Liban, tread carefully. You might feel that the Quran is superior because of the state of the old books or writings, and the fact that it was in Arabic and not translated e.g. like the Bible was from Aramaic; however, the Bible is a sacred text for Christians and Christians have a relationship with their god, so don't underestimate or disrespect that.

You are asking me to tread carefully... That is interesting considering the higher than thou attitude you possess.

In any event, I never said that the Bible is not sacred to Christians. Nor did I ever say that the original Bible was not the word of God spoken through His Messanger Jesus Christ (peace).

So once again, I ask you to stop jumping around young grasshopper and to relax.

Liban wrote:You are asking me to tread carefully... That is interesting considering the higher than thou attitude you possess.

In any event, I never said that the Bible is not sacred to Christians. Nor did I ever say that the original Bible was not the word of God spoken through His Messanger Jesus Christ (peace).

So once again, I ask you to stop jumping around young grasshopper and to relax.

Please explain how I have a higher-than-though attitude? You are the one who constantly posts about how Arab Muslims are the cream of the crop and the next world power once united. Many of your posts ooze moral superiority and arrogance.

I never said that you said the Bible wasn't sacred. In a few posts in various threads you made it seem like the Bible and other texts that Christians hold sacred are lesser than the Quran for the reasons I mentioned in my earlier post. All I asked was that you tread carefully with that.

Chill guys.

Ah Kanelli I can't help but smile at the thought of yuor little old Yoda jumping around like a grass hopper though - he's cool!

But Liban, She is right though, sometimes the things you say can be a little demeaning and I think we're all guilty of that at times, myself included.

kanelli wrote:
Please explain how I have a higher-than-though attitude? You are the one who constantly posts about how Arab Muslims are the cream of the crop and the next world power once united. Many of your posts ooze moral superiority and arrogance.

I never said that you said the Bible wasn't sacred. In a few posts in various threads you made it seem like the Bible and other texts that Christians hold sacred are lesser than the Quran for the reasons I mentioned in my earlier post. All I asked was that you tread carefully with that.

You always think you are right when it is so blatantly obvious you are not. I do not claim Arab superiority, but rather that the Arabs have significant clout and can become a power to be reckoned with is they get their act together.

Also, making something seem a certain way, doesn't mean things are a certain way. We are all God's servants. And the People of the Book are to be respected. So says the Quran and so said The Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) in his Hadiths.

Liban wrote:

kanelli wrote:
Please explain how I have a higher-than-though attitude? You are the one who constantly posts about how Arab Muslims are the cream of the crop and the next world power once united. Many of your posts ooze moral superiority and arrogance.

I never said that you said the Bible wasn't sacred. In a few posts in various threads you made it seem like the Bible and other texts that Christians hold sacred are lesser than the Quran for the reasons I mentioned in my earlier post. All I asked was that you tread carefully with that.

You always think you are right when it is so blatantly obvious you are not. I do not claim Arab superiority, but rather that the Arabs have significant clout and can become a power to be reckoned with is they get their act together.

Also, making something seem a certain way, doesn't mean things are a certain way. We are all God's servants. And the People of the Book are to be respected. So says the Quran and so said The Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) in his Hadiths.

And you are right all the time Liban? All I can do is analyse the different sides of an issue, poke holes in faulty assertions, and present my own opinions. While it is always nice to be right, there are few occasions where anyone can say they are right and someone else is wrong - it is just a matter of interpretation.

Liban, do you really respect all the things that the Quran tells you to respect? Many of your posts on this board seem to say the opposite.

kanelli wrote:
And you are right all the time Liban? All I can do is analyse the different sides of an issue, poke holes in faulty assertions, and present my own opinions. While it is always nice to be right, there are few occasions where anyone can say they are right and someone else is wrong - it is just a matter of interpretation.

Liban, do you really respect all the things that the Quran tells you to respect? Many of your posts on this board seem to say the opposite.

Nobody is right all the time. All I am is logical and I respond to what are incorrect statements. I agree with you in saying it would be nice to be right 110% of the time, but thats not possible.

As a Muslim, I strive to respect the Teachings of God and also try to follow the teaching of The Prophet to the best of my human abilities. As for my posts, you know little of the Quran, so I will not comment on your last sentence.

Liban wrote:

kanelli wrote:
And you are right all the time Liban? All I can do is analyse the different sides of an issue, poke holes in faulty assertions, and present my own opinions. While it is always nice to be right, there are few occasions where anyone can say they are right and someone else is wrong - it is just a matter of interpretation.

Liban, do you really respect all the things that the Quran tells you to respect? Many of your posts on this board seem to say the opposite.

Nobody is right all the time. All I am is logical and I respond to what are incorrect statements. I agree with you in saying it would be nice to be right 110% of the time, but thats not possible.

As a Muslim, I strive to respect the Teachings of God and also try to follow the teaching of The Prophet to the best of my human abilities. As for my posts, you know little of the Quran, so I will not comment on your last sentence.

Liban, I know you are trying respect the teachings of your religion, and that is admirable.

Actually, I am learning about the Quran and people have quoted the Quran here as well. Don't forget, there are also Muslims on this board who have told you that you have been behaving in a non-Muslim way. I don't expect you to be perfect, but you should try to practice what you preach, or don't preach at all.

I will give my right arm if those same people are themselves behaving in a Muslim way like the "Ashab al Rassoul" (loosly translated into The Prophets friends/first followers).

Liban, I know you are trying respect the teachings of your religion, and that is admirable.

Actually, I am learning about the Quran and people have quoted the Quran here as well. Don't forget, there are also Muslims on this board who have told you that you have been behaving in a non-Muslim way. I don't expect you to be perfect, but you should try to practice what you preach, or don't preach at all.[/quote]

In order to preach, do you not have to be a 'preacher'? Liban, are you a Mullah?

Knight

Dubai Knight wrote:
In order to preach, do you not have to be a 'preacher'? Liban, are you a Mullah?

Knight

This is a misconception.

1) Mullahs are what Shia preachers are called. In addition it is an Iranian term. In Arabic the Shia preachers are referred to as Imams. For Sunnis, in Arabic we call them Sheikhs. A Sheikh is not just a monarch but can be a village elder or a religious authority (as in this sense).

2) To preach in a mosque, it is preferred that the honor be given to a Muslim theologian if one is available in the area, if not it is the most learned Muslim. Outside, it is not called preaching but discussing and educating people on Islam. It is the duty of all Muslims to do so to the best of their abilities.

I am honored that you call me a preacher, but alas I am not. I do try my best to spread the message so that Inshallah, one day, the world can become a better place for all God's servants.

Actually, he didn't call you a preacher Liban, so there is nothing to be honoured about.

Are you a born-again Muslim? This means that you previously didn't follow Islam, e.g. maybe didn't pray, ate pork, drank alcohol, etc. I'm just curious. Many born-again religious people tend to be very vocal about their faith compared to religious people who have always been faithful.

kanelli wrote:Actually, he didn't call you a preacher Liban, so there is nothing to be honoured about.

Are you a born-again Muslim? This means that you previously didn't follow Islam, e.g. maybe didn't pray, ate pork, drank alcohol, etc. I'm just curious. Many born-again religious people tend to be very vocal about their faith compared to religious people who have always been faithful.

Young grasshopper, you seem to possess many personalities. Do you think you are DK?

The born again statement is mute. Yes at a previous point I didn't pray 5 times a day, but many children do not pray.... In any event it is not until the onset of puberty that Muslims are obligated to follow their faith if they are to be true practicing Muslims.

In Christianity, born-agains are vocal... In Islam, all Muslims are obliged to speak of their faith and educate others, so there are no differences between practicing Muslims who were born into the faith, or converted, or refound their faith.

I hope that helped educate you a little more young grasshopper.

You would do your faith more justice and get your message across Liban, if you spoke and debated in a manner befitting to your faith.

And we would learn more.

This is why Shaf in his short time here ,has earned the highest respect from forumers.

You give respect, you get respect in return.

Its not that difficult.

In that case, if you feel you deserve respect, then speak in a manner that would have me respect you.

So far, I see little attempts on your part (as well as a few others).

It always cuts both ways.

arniegang wrote:It always cuts both ways.

I agree. Thats what I was saying.

So you may start.

No, i insist, after you.

arniegang wrote:No, i insist, after you.

No please... Age before beauty...

ok i have, read the other thread please.

arniegang wrote:ok i have, read the other thread please.

Sorry Arniegang, may you please tell me which other thread you refer to?

This one

http://www.dubaiforums.com/viewtopic.ph ... 3&start=15