Dubai Forums Dubai Discussions Dubai Politics Talk Philosophy and Religion Forums

Just had an interesting chat on IM, about humor. Humor, friend claims is related to self-reflection.
Chatting more, friend, who just broke a world record , made the observation, that salvation in Islam can only be reached in the hereafter, salvation by death, after being subsumed a life long, without liberation on earth. Christians, friend claims, can be saved alive, meaning after salvation/liberation they can live free of the burden of sin. Friend is not religious at all by the way. Friend claims Jesus was a happy dude though, going to parties and all.

Any comments?

Oh yes, Judaism, the after-life is not major point in Judaism AFAIK, but any comments on possible salvation in Judaism are also welcome.

Salvation in both Judaism and Islam are similar: faith + good works. Although, in mainstream judaism there is no hell just a temporary place away from heaven. In mainstream christianity salvation comes from believing in Christ.

Salvation in both Judaism and Islam are similar: faith + good works. Although, in mainstream judaism there is no hell just a temporary place away from heaven. In mainstream christianity salvation comes from believing in Christ.

I would encourage members to actually know what they're talking about before pontificating about other faiths, let alone their own.

event horizon wrote:I would encourage members to actually know what they're talking about before pontificating about other faiths, let alone their own.

What is said wrong?

eh invents religious theories that only he seems to believe in. He argued that Hindus don't go to hell automatically in his religion - despite what most Christians believe. The Bible says that those who reject Christ (like Hindus) are condemned and damned, but eh tried to argue that this did not mean they go to hell. That was bizare - especially as Christian commentators quoted explicitly disagreed with his odd-ball new religion.

Another example is when he argued that the Crusades weren't holy wars.

When it comes to a simple question of whether Hitler would go to heaven if he had sincerely accepted Christ before dying, he runs away and hides, rather than answering the simple question on salvation. The answer I've received from believing Christians who have the cohones to defend their faith is an unequivocal 'Yes, hitler would indeed be in heaven if he had sincerely accepted Christ'.

That is what they told me Christianity teaches - and as unpalatable as it may seem to non-believers, the acceptance of Christ (sincerely) is a guarantee of salvation. Now, some - but not all, have told me that this is the ONLY way to salvation.

We shouldn't take eh's protestations too seriously - he doesn't have the courage of his convictions and will rather invent a lie than address what the Bible actually teaches.

Cheers,

Shafique

Flying Dutchman wrote:that salvation in Islam can only be reached in the hereafter, salvation by death, after being subsumed a life long, without liberation on earth.

Is his understanding of salvation means keeping purity to reach happiness or the tranquility in this world?

What does he mean when he says without liberation on earth?

Flying Dutchman wrote:Christians, friend claims, can be saved alive, meaning after salvation/liberation they can live free of the burden of sin.

What is that christian liberation that makes him live free of the burden of sin therefore saved alive rather than salvation in the hereafter?

Who's dead according to Islam? Jesus or Muhammed?

What has your question got to do with mine?
Prophet Muhammad is dead. Prophet jesus is not,Allah raised him unto himself, he will be returned back and die like normal humans as in quran said : Every soul will taste death. Then to Us will you be returned.29:57

Interesting that eh hasn't actually told us what he thinks Christianity teaches about salvation. As mentioned in other threads - it is as if he is ashamed of his faith. And this from a poster who pontificates about another religion!

Cheers,

Shafique

He argued that Hindus don't go to hell automatically in his religion - despite what most Christians believe.

Isn't this like your claim that non-Muslims enter Paradise that contradicted what your own Ahmadi scholars believe?

Oh, and btw, speaking of what most Muslims believe, should I reject your beliefs on Islam for what most Muslims believe?

You're not making good arguments (as usual).

We'll ignore what you claimed on the Saddam Hussein thread - all opinion, no substance.

The Bible says that those who reject Christ (like Hindus) are condemned and damned

Thank you for your opinion. But most Hindus wouldn't reject Christ if they are unfamiliar with the New Testament.

but eh tried to argue that this did not mean they go to hell. That was bizare

Why is this more bizarre than your belief that the "losers" in the afterlife are not sent to hell?

You're too dimwitted to figure out when your line of arguments are being parodied.

Seriously, you must walk around with half a brain.

especially as Christian commentators quoted explicitly disagreed with his odd-ball new religion.

Right back at you.

Do you want me to quote your Ahmadi commentators regarding non-Muslims and hell?

Interesting that eh hasn't actually told us what he thinks Christianity teaches about salvation. As mentioned in other threads

There is no single Christian belief about salvation. It's only with bigots like yourself who view Christianity as a single monolithic faith would believe Christians and Christian beliefs are all the same.

A long post, empty of content.

Are you really that ashamed to tell us what you think the Christian concept of salvation is - and whether Hitler would be in heaven if he accepted Christ sincerely before dying?

Cheers,

Shafique

event horizon wrote:There is no single Christian belief about salvation. It's only with bigots like yourself who view Christianity as a single monolithic faith would believe Christians and Christian beliefs are all the same.

That's why I said "mainstream" silly. Of course, with more than 20,000 denominations, there are varied beliefs. Some are very close to Islam.

So what is "mainstream"? Catholic? Protestant? Orthodox?

They all have varing beliefs on salvation.

--- Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:08 pm ---

shafique wrote:Are you really that ashamed to tell us what you think the Christian concept of salvation is - and whether Hitler would be in heaven if he accepted Christ sincerely before dying?

We know Hitler would be in Paradise for simply reciting the shahada.

Anyway, I was under the belief that it's in Islam where your past deeds are erased upon conversion.

Otherwise, Pagans who convert will spend an eternity in hell.

Happy to be shown otherwise (based on texts and writings of Muslim scholars - not opinion).

shafique wrote:Are you really that ashamed to tell us what you think the Christian concept of salvation is - and whether Hitler would be in heaven if he accepted Christ sincerely before dying?

So, what is your view? Would Hitler be in heaven, like you would like to think Hussein is according to your 'blogger-only' interpretation of Islam?

Cheers,

Shafique

event horizon wrote:So what is "mainstream"? Catholic? Protestant? Orthodox?

They all have varing beliefs on salvation.

There are differences but all these say salvation comes from beleive in the sacrifice of Christ, which is different than both Muslim and Jewish of faith + good works.

^Or, why doesn't eh tell us what difference there is between Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox and his particular view is on the question - is Hitler in heaven if he had sincerely accepted Christ as saviour before he died?

Is there a difference? Or do they all say he is in heaven?

Cheers,

Shafique

There are differences but all these say salvation comes from beleive in the sacrifice of Christ

Please cite that.

which is different than both Muslim and Jewish of faith + good works.

Many Jews believe faith is not required for salvation.

I won't argue what Muslims believe. You're free to believe faith is not required for salvation.

event horizon wrote:I won't argue what Muslims believe.

Excellent.

Then answer the question about whether Hitler is in heaven if he had accepted Christ sincerely before death then:

shafique wrote:what difference there is between Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox and his particular view is on the question - is Hitler in heaven if he had sincerely accepted Christ as saviour before he died?

Is there a difference? Or do they all say he is in heaven?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon wrote:Please cite that.

Check their respective sites.

Why is eh embarrassed to tell us his view first, and then how they differ from the other Christians (if it differs at all)?

Curious that.

Cheers,

Shafique

Nucleus wrote: event horizon wrote:Please cite that.

Check their respective sites.

Why would I when I didn't incorrectly claim what Christians and Jews believe?

event horizon wrote:Why would I when I didn't incorrectly claim what Christians and Jews believe?

Because then you can understand the correct beliefs as it appears you have some confusion about them. I only stated what is said on their repective sites. I don't know what your objection is about. If something is wrong show it were it is wrong.

shafique wrote:Why is eh embarrassed to tell us his view first, and then how they differ from the other Christians (if it differs at all)?

The evasiveness of eh is not even creative now. Fascinating to see him wriggle like this.

Cheers,

Shafique

I'll start with one of your incorrect beliefs - you claimed faith and good works is a requirement in Judaism for salvation.

In other words, without one or the other (such as faith), salvation is unattainable.

This is wrong. A quick google search shows that faith or belief is not required for "salvation" in Judaism.

Many Jews believe atheists will be admitted into their version of heaven.

Not only that, but faith / belief in their God is certainly no requirement.

So, one does not have to have faith/belief in Judaism and one could have no faith/belief at all and be rewarded in the afterlife.

event horizon wrote:I'll start with one of your incorrect beliefs - you claimed faith and good works is a requirement in Judaism for salvation.

event horizon wrote:Many Jews believe atheists will be admitted into their version of heaven.

Under the Noahide laws for non-jews, but not the Jews. But that is tricky subject. Judaism is more focused on action, hence, they normally say that. So an atheist who fits the noahide laws requirement can go to heaven.

But it is not that simple, http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/noahide.html

Anybody can see that to full fill the noahide laws it requires a level of faith, for example, law #4.

http://www.jewfaq.org/beliefs.htm

Here is an article written that is easy to understand http://journalistnikki.hubpages.com/hub ... -and-Islam

Thanks, there's your opinion and the view of Rabbis.

event horizon wrote:Thanks, there's your opinion and the view of Rabbis.

In Islam an atheist can go into heaven too, but it is a complicated subject and can get misunderstood.

And yet eh continues to refuse to tell us what he thinks Christianity teaches about salvation. Is it because he is afraid to tell us, or he doesn't know?

Cheers,

Shafique