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eh - the details of why Hirsi's theory is a myth are well explained in the 3 linked articles and indeed I hone in on a main issue above.

It is futile for me to look up the facts for you, as it is clear you are not interested in the truth - only in peddling your hatred of a religion you insist is one that worships Satan etc.

You obviously do believe there is a Global war against Christians, I happen to agree with the arguments and facts in the 3 articles. You will not convince me you are right and vice versa.

Cheers,

Shafique

Yes there is some persecution of Christians and minorities in some Muslim lands - but this is not the norm.

Sorry, that was your claim you brought up as a proof that there is no war against Christians.

Are you now saying you didn't write the above?

If so, why don't you want to support your claim that persecution of Christians in Muslim lands is not the norm?

I don't happen to agree that what Hirsi wrote was a myth or that her views have been debunked. That's your opinion not supported by facts or persuasive rhetoric.

Far from it, when we look at the evidence we do see a global war against Christians in the Muslim world - one that is supported by legislation designed to suppress and eliminate Christianity and vigilante violence by insurgent groups and the spontaneous gathering of the "unruly mob".

The last two are a natural outgrowth of the low view Islam has on Christianity and the discriminatory laws Christians experience.

It seems you're more interested in Muslim PR than in actually combating Christian persecution when you can't even bother to assess the facts and label others "hatemongers" for relaying the truth in the Muslim world.

There isn't a war. 3 articles explain why.

You choose to have another belief - and I choose to not join you in this belief.

Unless you have anything new to add - I'll move on to other issues. I wish you well in this belief of yours.

Cheers,

Shafique

Please list the number of Muslim majority nations Christians experience equal rights with Muslims.

Persecution is not the norm in the Muslim world?

Prove it.

Nothing new there.

I concede you believe that you are right, despite the evidence in the articles. What do you think repeating your belief achieve?

Ok, NOW, I will move on.

Cheers,

Shafique

Cowards run when confronted.

Shaf, we are going to have to disagree. I know that you have a vision of what Islam should be, but your version of Islam is not what is being practiced on the ground in much of the Islamic world. You are choosing to wave the flag of good Islam PR over acknowledging that there is a lot of intolerance for minority religious groups in the Muslim world and it seems to be getting worse.

I agree, we have to agree to disagree on this one.

We are not disagreeing on the very real instances of persecution of minorities by some Muslims - but only on whether these instnaces constitute as wide a problem as Ali makes out - and certainly not a global 'war' against Christians in the Muslim world that stems from Islamic theology.

Cheers,
Shafique

Flying Dutchman wrote:Cowards run when confronted.

There's no moral difference between shafique and the Muslims who persecute Christians in the Muslim world.

He's the type of fake moderate MLK condemned in his letter from an Alabama jail:

King's letter is a response to a statement made by eight white Alabama clergymen on April 12, 1963, titled "A Call for Unity". The clergymen agreed that social injustices existed but argued that the battle against racial segregation should be fought solely in the courts, not in the streets. They criticized Martin Luther King, calling him an "outsider" who causes trouble in the streets of Birmingham. To this, King referred to his belief that all communities and states were interrelated. He wrote, "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly... Anyone who lives inside the United States can never be considered an outsider..."[1] King expressed his remorse that the demonstrations were taking place in Birmingham but felt that the white power structure left the black community with no other choice.

Not only did he attack our modern version of MLK as a hatemonger, but he has minimized the extent of Muslim injustice against Christians (claiming Christian persecution is not the norm, etc).

Equality won't be achieved with help from shafique and his ilk. They deny or minimize the problem and attack those speaking against injustice as "hatemongers". Shafique and his fellow supremacist bigots are destined for the same trash heap in history as fascism, communism and Nazism. At least he and his ilk will be in good company.

Oh please EH, you are a Christian fundamentalist and hate propagandist. You don't know the meaning of tolerance or pluralism.

kanelli wrote:Oh please EH, you are a Christian fundamentalist and hate propagandist. You don't know the meaning of tolerance or pluralism.

I know Christian persecution when I see it and oppose the second class status of Christians in much of the Muslim world.

Btw, care to back up that I'm a Christian fundamentalist and hate propagandist?

Happy to compare my stated religious views with shafique's stated religious views.

Also happy to compare authors I agree with and whose articles / viewpoints I've posted on the forum to the Anti-Semitic Muslim author shafique is in agreement with.

Then we'll see who's the fundamentalist and hate propagandist and doesn't, therefore, know the meaning of tolerance or pluralism.

So you doubt that I know what you are about after reading your posts since 2009? Anyone can take a look at your posting history and see that 90% of the topics you start relate to anti-Islamic topics. I'm not interested in a pissing contest between you and Shaf over whose religious views are better than the other.

Those who are interested in facts can look at what I've actually posted / stated and compare to your imaginary version of my posting history.

We both agree that religious fundamentalists and propagandists wouldn't know the meaning of tolerance and pluralism.

event horizon wrote:Those who are interested in facts can look at what I've actually posted / stated and compare to your imaginary version of my posting history.

Funny, Shaf keeps telling you the same thing about his posts but you don't believe him either.

event horizon wrote:We both agree that religious fundamentalists and propagandists wouldn't know the meaning of tolerance and pluralism.

Oh yes, but we disagree on the point that you are indeed a religious fundamentalist (remember, women deserve to die if they have killed their fetus!) and you have demonstrated here over the past 2 + years that you don't know the meaning of tolerance and pluralism.

Welcome back Kanelli to the:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Czw_4mnb ... re=related

event horizon wrote:Happy to compare my stated religious views with shafique's stated religious views.

Fair enough. Game on.

You quote my stated religious views and we'll compare yours.

How about war crimes - the slaughter of women and children and the enslavement of women. I condemn all such actions as war crimes, you say that the Jews who supposedly did this in the name of God were committing an act of God and you don't condemn them. That's a religious view - that men can slaughter women and children, and enslave women in the name of God.
philosophy-dubai/biblical-war-crimes-t40711.html

I denounce any war crimes, and even concede that if the early Muslims did act like your favourite bloggers like to portray them - then they would indeed be war crimes which I unreservedly condemn. No ifs, no buts - all war crimes wrong. Indeed that is what Islam teaches - even in war, one must be just. That is my religious belief.

(I do disagree with your mangled, blogger-only versions of historical events - but that is not a religious view).


So - can event horizon join me in condemning the war crimes described in the Bible carried out by the Israelites - where children and women are slaughtered and virgins enslaved? Condemn this as a war crime?

Cheers,

Shafique

Oh yes, but we disagree on the point that you are indeed a religious fundamentalist (remember, women deserve to die if they have killed their fetus!)

Care to link a belief in capital punishment and religious views?

Prove beyond any reason that one who supports capital punishment must do so because of their religious beliefs.

Also explain how devout Christians could therefore be opposed to the death penalty on religious grounds.

If anything, not supporting the death penalty is Christian and supporting the death penalty is unChristian.

Ergo, many Christian religious fundamentalists in theory and practice are opposed to the death penalty and many non religious people support the death penalty.

and you have demonstrated here over the past 2 + years that you don't know the meaning of tolerance and pluralism.

More innuendo. I recognize and unreservedly condemn religious discrimination and bigotry against religious minorities across the world.

Innuendo? You are too funny. This is exactly the same as you saying that Shaf isn't going to admit to being an anti-semite. You claim you aren't an Islamophobe, but then again you wouldn't admit to something like that would you? Same arguments coming back at you EH.

Why don't you substantiate your claims like I have done with shafique?

What is the point of me reposting almost every thread you have started over the past 2 + years?

true Kanelli , what is this thread all about ? why would somebody be against Christians when the religion itself is being treated like a hobby by its followers ?

kanelli wrote:What is the point of me reposting almost every thread you have started over the past 2 + years?

Did event horizon ever suggest Muslims should be die because they are Muslim? Did he ever incite or indicate that any kind of violence should be used against Muslims for being Muslim? Did he ever claim killing pregnant women and children serves something? Did he ever endorse texts saying Muslims are the root of all evil in the world? Did he ever suggest a country should be whiped off? Did he ever post p0rn? Did he suggest in any way violence against another forum member?

I think event horizon is an angel compared to what goes around DF.

eh's claim:

event horizon wrote:Happy to compare my stated religious views with shafique's stated religious views.

When I called his bluff:

eh,

shafique wrote: can event horizon join me in condemning the war crimes described in the Bible carried out by the Israelites - where children and women are slaughtered and virgins enslaved? Condemn this as a war crime?

Simple enough question. Why the filibustering?

A related question that eh was also raised in the past is eh's views of the American Christians who kill doctors and nurses who perform abortions. Is his religious view that these Christians have sinned and are going to hell, or does he agree with them that they are doing God's work? My view is that any terrorist - Muslim or Christian, suicide or otherwise, who kills children, women etc - are sinning and will go to hell (and that the act is against Islam - and specifically, any Muslim suicide bomber targetting Israeli civilians - regardless of whether the terrorist says they are soldiers in civilian clothes - is committing a sin and acting against Islam)

Is eh's religious view that the Christian terrorists blowing up doctors are as guilty of sin as the Muslim suicide bombers - and does he join me in condemning both equally?

Cheers,
Shafique

You never condemned a 16 y old blowing himself up amongst Zionist soldiers Shaf. So it appears you a bit selective there.

Neither did Shafique condemn a black youth for kicking an old white man to death during the recent riots in London either. Every time I invited him to, he did the Ali shuffle.

kanelli wrote:What is the point of me reposting almost every thread you have started over the past 2 + years?

Just post the single thread or post where I have made or supported a demonstrably "Islamophobic" comment.

Shouldn't be too hard.

Then we can compare it to the anti-Semitic views Muslims on the forum stand for.

But I request you find actual posts of mine rather than relying on innuendo that I support killings or extremist views when I've never seen any statement to that effect - such as the logic that I must support bridge collapses or tornadoes if I call them an act of God.

I also see one forum member has condemned enslavement of women when in the past this same member - on this forum - has actually supported the enslavement of women by members of his religion.

Flying Dutchman wrote:You never condemned a 16 y old blowing himself up amongst Zionist soldiers Shaf. So it appears you a bit selective there.

If you a search for my views of child soldiers in previous discussions we've had, you'll find that I have been pretty consistent in my views of whether children should engage in attacks on military targets. There were 16 year olds who fought in the WW1 (lying about their age) - and my view of them is consistent with the general principle.

But let's see if eh does agree with me about Christians blowing up doctors is no different from Muslims blowing up civilians - both are sinning and go to hell. He says he wants to compare stated religious views - so let's see if he was bluffing or not.

Most/all non-Christians would agree with me that the Christian terrorists who blow up doctors and nurses are criminals, but will eh's religious views agree with us?



Cheers,

Shafique

When the opinions are tackled and challenged, the fan-bois resort to name calling.

Bump for the troll.

Do you want to address the responses that have tackled and challenged your claim that discrimination of Christians is not the norm in the Muslim world?

So you guys think that just because you don't say "All Muslims should die!" that you are not Islamophobes? Seriously?

Your memory or comprehension skills must be letting you down. You have tried unsuccessfully in the past to spin what FD and I have actually written to make it appear as if we hate Muslims etc. You failed.

There's even a thread which clarifies this and exposes your fantastical theory to the reality of what FD has actually written and believes:

dubai-politics-talk/questions-for-flyingdutchman-for-the-record-t49351.html

I trust you will read, understand and stop making the same accusations again and again.