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Liban wrote:We need to learn from others???

Not quite.

Other cultured built what they have today as a result of the Arab and/or Islamic culture. Modern science, mathematics, astronomy, medicine, etc.. all owe their existance to us.

Thats a fact. The West needs to learn from us.

Sorry Lib,

You need to check your historyand 'facts' a little more closely. 'Modern' science, mathematics, astronomy, medicine were in existence in one form or another from time immemorial. They evolved, they did not suddenly 'appear' with Islam. The Egyptians had a very thorough working knowledge of the human body and medicine, 6,000 years before the foundation of Islam. The Dogon Tribe of Niger, a subsistence level hunter gatherer culture many thousands of years old, are fully conversant with the workings of the solar system, even to the eccentric orbits of the moons of Jupiter, objects invisible to the naked eye and only visible through todays extremely powerful telescopes. Read 'The Silver Fox'.

The Greek culture was probably the initial founding point of medicine (Hippocrates) as was the first mathematical theory (Pythagoras' theory is as correct today as it was 3,000 years ago). Galileo was the first to map the solar system in the 1200's.

You cannot unilaterally claim that Islam and the Arab culture 'created' these studies and sciences. Yes, they may have made contributions to them, but they were most certainly not responsible for their foundation.

Once again, indoctrination and 'one sided' views can be damaging.

Open up a little and you may find there are more revelations awaiting you.


With respect.

Knight

Interesting how the word MODERN seemed to slip through when you were reading my post.

Islamic science, mathematics, astronomy, medicine, etc... are the CORE of MODERN technics. This is indisputable.

Sure these existed from the begining of man but the period from 800 to 1300 AD molded our modern version.

Islamic scholars for example proved the world was round before the Western Galileo. Though most history textbooks are written by white Westerners which is why we rarely ever see innovation rewarded to the rightful owner of a race or ethnicity like blacks, arabs, latinos, etc...

It's a shame that despite the fact that despite the progress that was made in sciences under Islam, the current day Mullah's reject the study of science and espouse medieval views concerning science and the teaching of secular knowledge. Just look at what the Taliban advocated!

Knight is correct that science was not 'invented' in the glory days of the Islamic empire (say the first 300 years of Islam), but was it not for the Islamic scholars, the knowledge of the Greeks and other civilizations would have been lost - in much the same way the knowledge of the Aztecs and much of the Egyptian empires have now been lost.

However, it does a great dis-service to the great scientists and poly-maths that the Islamic era threw up to say they only transmitted the knowledge and did not discover new aspects of science (rather than evolve previous theories).

There were +new+ discoveries in Mathematics, pharmacology, optics, astronomy, mettalurgy, anatomy, botany etc under Islamic scholarship. There were advances in the arts as well - poetry, music, caligraphy etc. Advances too in architecture, agriculture ..

As I said, it is a shame that Muslim clerics seem to have lost sight of these facts and see a problem with secular learning.

Wasalaam,
Shafique

Liban, you just don't get it. There were other cultures that were also advancing in science around the same time as others. Why don't the Mayans get any respect for their astronomy etc.? How dare you put down the achievements of others or claim ignorantly that Arab developments are the basis for all that the world's people now survive on. Extremely arrogant. Yes, the Arabs developed wonderful things, but they did not develop everything. Why is it so hard for you to admit that the West has done a great job advancing technologies, whether based on some ancient Arab development or not? Is it that hard to give credit where credit is due?

Jedi Knight, I really think that there is no hope for some people on this forum. They are staunchly anti-West and think that there is nothing good about the West or anywhere else. Instead, they think that the world's best group of people are Arab Muslims and that the rest of the world and its people are inferior in every way - especially morally.

I say it is bollox, propaganda, and over-patriotism. We Westerners that some of you dislike are here analysing all sides and admitting when Western governments or Western culture is flawed - but none of you listen. You just tune your ears to the part where we defend the West in some way and then pounce on us for that. Highly intolerant.

Personally, I consider myself a citizen of the world first, but hey, that's just me.

kanelli wrote:Liban, you just don't get it. There were other cultures that were also advancing in science around the same time as others. Why don't the Mayans get any respect for their astronomy etc.? How dare you put down the achievements of others or claim ignorantly that Arab developments are the basis for all that the world's people now survive on. Extremely arrogant. Yes, the Arabs developed wonderful things, but they did not develop everything. Why is it so hard for you to admit that the West has done a great job advancing technologies, whether based on some ancient Arab development or not? Is it that hard to give credit where credit is due?

Jedi Knight, I really think that there is no hope for some people on this forum. They are staunchly anti-West and think that there is nothing good about the West or anywhere else. Instead, they think that the world's best group of people are Arab Muslims and that the rest of the world and its people are inferior in every way - especially morally.

I say it is bollox, propaganda, and over-patriotism. We Westerners that some of you dislike are here analysing all sides and admitting when Western governments or Western culture is flawed - but none of you listen. You just tune your ears to the part where we defend the West in some way and then pounce on us for that. Highly intolerant.

Personally, I consider myself a citizen of the world first, but hey, that's just me.

Not sure if its illiteracy, or willful ignorance, or what on Earth it can be but many of you seem to suffer from this.

I never said that nobody else contributed to the world. I am only saying that the Wests contribution is a minute on the 24 hour clock compared to other cultures.

But of course the pre-programmed minds of people like you Kanelli tend leap prematurely.

Also his name is NOT Jedi Knight but DUBAI Knight. READ Kanelli... It may do you some good.

Kanelli,

The part where you say 'none of you listen' is a little harsh me-thinks.

cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Kanelli,

The part where you say 'none of you listen' is a little harsh me-thinks.

cheers,
Shafique

Its simply racism at work.

There are many closet racists here. They may not know it.

Liban wrote:

kanelli wrote:Liban, you just don't get it. There were other cultures that were also advancing in science around the same time as others. Why don't the Mayans get any respect for their astronomy etc.? How dare you put down the achievements of others or claim ignorantly that Arab developments are the basis for all that the world's people now survive on. Extremely arrogant. Yes, the Arabs developed wonderful things, but they did not develop everything. Why is it so hard for you to admit that the West has done a great job advancing technologies, whether based on some ancient Arab development or not? Is it that hard to give credit where credit is due?

Jedi Knight, I really think that there is no hope for some people on this forum. They are staunchly anti-West and think that there is nothing good about the West or anywhere else. Instead, they think that the world's best group of people are Arab Muslims and that the rest of the world and its people are inferior in every way - especially morally.

I say it is bollox, propaganda, and over-patriotism. We Westerners that some of you dislike are here analysing all sides and admitting when Western governments or Western culture is flawed - but none of you listen. You just tune your ears to the part where we defend the West in some way and then pounce on us for that. Highly intolerant.

Personally, I consider myself a citizen of the world first, but hey, that's just me.

Not sure if its illiteracy, or willful ignorance, or what on Earth it can be but many of you seem to suffer from this.

I never said that nobody else contributed to the world. I am only saying that the Wests contribution is a minute on the 24 hour clock compared to other cultures.

But of course the pre-programmed minds of people like you Kanelli tend leap prematurely.

Also his name is NOT Jedi Knight but DUBAI Knight. READ Kanelli... It may do you some good.

If the West's contribution is only a minute - that is one hell of a significant minute. Also, how would you compare the science and technology of other cultures compared to Arab discoveries? Are they only a minute each as well? Shaf made an excellent post about advances by Islamic scholars and what has happened since, but you don't touch Shaf's post. You don't have anything to contribute about that?

I know his name is Dubai Knight. There is a joke from another thread about him being a Jedi, so I now call him Jedi Knight. It is called CONTEXT and FUN - I didn't suffer from poor reading skills. Thanks for your concern anyway Liban.

Shafique, thanks for the interesting post. Why do you think that Islam today isn't valuing scientific scholarship as much as the past?

kanelli wrote:
If the West's contribution is only a minute - that is one hell of a significant minute. Also, how would you compare the science and technology of other cultures compared to Arab discoveries? Are they only a minute each as well? Shaf made an excellent post about advances by Islamic scholars and what has happened since, but you don't touch Shaf's post. You don't have anything to contribute about that?

I know his name is Dubai Knight. There is a joke from another thread about him being a Jedi, so I now call him Jedi Knight. It is called CONTEXT and FUN - I didn't suffer from poor reading skills. Thanks for your concern anyway Liban.

Shafique, thanks for the interesting post. Why do you think that Islam today isn't valuing scientific scholarship as much as the past?

The West's apogee has only lasted for about 500 years top max. Mankind has been doing ingeneous things since 10,000BC with the Phoenicians. So yes its about 1 SHORT minute.

Other cultures have a much bigger portion of the 24 hour clock. The Chinese have a few hours logged for example.

As for Shaf's post. I agree with the part on the modern Mullah's being quite backward in their thinking. So why would you want me to criticize him?

Kanelli, you are quite humorous in all your pouncing and leaping. You are like a hybrid panther/kangaroo!!

Liban wrote:

shafique wrote:Kanelli,

The part where you say 'none of you listen' is a little harsh me-thinks.

cheers,
Shafique

Its simply racism at work.

There are many closet racists here. They may not know it.

I said that there is a small group before that. The "none of you" refers to that small group. Shaf, you are not part of that group.

Liban, you are so racist against white people and Jews that it isn't funny.

How have my comments been racist? Please do explain. I say that other cultures including the West have made contributions and you say that only Arab Muslims have made significant contributions. Who is being racist Liban?

Liban, how nice that you finally mention some other cultures.

All of this trashing of the West and exhalting of the Arab Muslim world is so tiring.

I'm really knocking my head against a wall.

Disagreeing that the Arab Muslim world isn't the be all and end all does not make me a racist. And I don't think that the West is the be all and end all either, as many of my previous posts on this board prove.

Liban wrote:

kanelli wrote:Liban, you just don't get it. There were other cultures that were also advancing in science around the same time as others. Why don't the Mayans get any respect for their astronomy etc.? How dare you put down the achievements of others or claim ignorantly that Arab developments are the basis for all that the world's people now survive on. Extremely arrogant. Yes, the Arabs developed wonderful things, but they did not develop everything. Why is it so hard for you to admit that the West has done a great job advancing technologies, whether based on some ancient Arab development or not? Is it that hard to give credit where credit is due?

Jedi Knight, I really think that there is no hope for some people on this forum. They are staunchly anti-West and think that there is nothing good about the West or anywhere else. Instead, they think that the world's best group of people are Arab Muslims and that the rest of the world and its people are inferior in every way - especially morally.

I say it is bollox, propaganda, and over-patriotism. We Westerners that some of you dislike are here analysing all sides and admitting when Western governments or Western culture is flawed - but none of you listen. You just tune your ears to the part where we defend the West in some way and then pounce on us for that. Highly intolerant.

Personally, I consider myself a citizen of the world first, but hey, that's just me.

Not sure if its illiteracy, or willful ignorance, or what on Earth it can be but many of you seem to suffer from this.

I never said that nobody else contributed to the world. I am only saying that the Wests contribution is a minute on the 24 hour clock compared to other cultures.

But of course the pre-programmed minds of people like you Kanelli tend leap prematurely.

Also his name is NOT Jedi Knight but DUBAI Knight. READ Kanelli... It may do you some good.

OK Lib,

So we are going to get pedantic here...If the existance of this planet, taken from the moment monocellular life appeared upon it until the present day, was illustrated as a 1 year period, then we: Homo Sapiens, the current incarnation of an ever evolving primate biped, are appearing in the dying microseconds of the 11th. hour. Written history, 'Western/Eastern/pre-historic cave paintings/hieroglyphs/and everything that has come since...are a mere millionth of a nanosecond before the the year ends.

The accepted beginnings of man have so far been traced back to the Rift Valley area of Kenya, however before the giant continents of Gondwanaland and Pangea split up, massive migration of species was possible across land bridges, spreading man's ancestors far and wide. The closest thing to an original culture that has been able to carry through to the modern day, are the Aboriginal and Maori tribes of Australia and New Zealand.

So in the whole scheme of things, the Arab culture AND the 'Western' culture you seem to belittle so freely, are both exceedingly new to the planet and have much to learn from the 'older' cultures. Perhaps I can suggest you spend a little time in the Outback eating bush tucker and communing with nature. Perhaps you may find a little reality in 'dreamtime'?

Incidentally, the avatar is an improvement! You really are an angelic little soul eh!



'Jedi' (which you obviously missed the irony behind or did not read the post as it is a 'neutral' fictitious religion based on a galaxy Far Far Away...)

Knight

kanelli wrote:Liban, how nice that you finally mention some other cultures.

All of this trashing of the West and exhalting of the Arab Muslim world is so tiring.

I'm really knocking my head against a wall.

Disagreeing that the Arab Muslim world isn't the be all and end all does not make me a racist. And I don't think that the West is the be all and end all either, as many of my previous posts on this board prove.

Totally agree K (or should that be Y?) Ooops! KY?

The only thing I can see that we have as an advantage is the freedom of mind and freedom of speech allowed by out culture, to criticise ourselves as much as anyone else. I forget who said it, but there is a famous quote by a French philosopher:

"Monsieur, I may totally disagree with everything you think and say, however I will defend to the death your right to say it!"



Nice Avatar! Have I started a fashion?

Knight

Bzzzzz! Bzzzzz!

Liban

Seriously not flaming, but can you make your definition clear regarding how you see some of us as racist please.

Can you include specifics and/or examples please.

The reason i ask is that my understanding of "rascism" seems to be way off the mark from yours.

Liban wrote:As for Shaf's post. I agree with the part on the modern Mullah's being quite backward in their thinking. So why would you want me to criticize him?

Kanelli, you are quite humorous in all your pouncing and leaping. You are like a hybrid panther/kangaroo!!

Liban, I didn't ask you to criticize Shaf, I asked you to think about and comment on the content of his post. It isn't obligatory only to post when you disagree with someone.

Yes, I like to pounce about on here, just as much as you do

DK, on the 24 clock of human acheivement, I would give about 12 hours to pre-modern societies. Inventing the wheel was the biggest of all impacts.

The industrial revolution, what the West is most known for, may not be a minute but perhapes a few minutes long. I conceed that much.

The Chinese, Islamic, and Indian cultures have had a bigger impact. If it wasn;t for them, the West would not have had its rennaissance and industrial revolution at the points that it did. That is a fact.

For others, as for my closet racist remark, you need look inside yourselves to know the truth. The internal Jihad in ones soul will reveal all. Open your hearts, minds, and of course, soul to seek the truth.

Phew - there is a little too much 'heat' in this thread!

Kanelli - I think the reason why the Mullah's have an aversion to Science and the 'West' is down to the fact that they are losing their grip on society and are trying desperately to hold on. This phenomenon is nothing new and is just a part of a cycle of power - you saw EXACTLY the same thing in the so-called 'Dark Ages' of Europe where the Church had exactly the same attitude towards scientists. In fact in this period, the Church had a monopoly on thought, scripture etc - it was all a power trip to control people.

This is, in my opinion, exactly the same reason why the Mullahs have this attitude to the West and Science.

As for scientific progress in the past 150 years (post Industrial Revolution) - I have to disagree with Liban and say that the progress has been unprecedented in history. All other developments took a longer period to develop and is a period that will stand-out as unique in the development of mankind.

Think of the world 200 years ago - no internal combustion engine, no steel, no electricity, no plastic etc etc. Now we talk about Moore's law and see it in action (computers getting more and more powerful by the week).

None of this progress has had any real influence by the Islamic world - the credit for this lies squarely in the non-Muslim world. I hesitate to use 'West', for Chinese manufacturing and Japanese ingenuity have played their part, and we mustn't forget the Indian brainpower that is so prevalent in Silicon valley.

The late Professor Abdus Salaam, who won a Nobel Prize for Physics in 1979, lamented at the lack of scientific progress amongst Muslim nations. He is notable for being the only modern day scientist of note that is Muslim that I know of. ( I know his sons, but did not have the privilege of meeting/speaking to him when he was alive. )

The theocracy in Islam has by and large become introspective - looking inwardly - and have this defensive attitude to the outside world now. They don't know how to co-exist in a world that is capitalistic and materialistic and cannot offer a form of religion that can happily co-exist in this environment. This is because they have closed minds and are worried about their authorities.

The tragedy is that Islam can and does happily coexist in all these environments - in fact I would go so far as to say that Islam can flourish more in the UK, for example, than in many countries around the Middle East - there is more freedom of expression and religion in the UK, both of which are corner-stones of Islam.

The hope for Muslims is that there are communities and leaders who are not introspective and are living Islam without compromise and participating fully in the world of today. I count myself as one of these muslims and seek to do my best spiritually and secularly, as did all the notable Muslims of the past.

wasalaam,
Shafique

All what we see today in the world. As an example current events and happenings and well as modern science, have been forecasted in the Quran.

Shaf, as you have pointed out previously, Islam and modern science can go hand in hand and must go hand in hand for ethical reasons beyong the practical ones. Most Muslims today are not receiving the right kind of education to properly combine the harmony between the teachings of the Quran and "modernity".

It is my hope, as is yours, that this will change.

Just to point out that Egyptian scholars knew the world was round long before Galileo. Plus many of the ancient Greek scholars spent a lot of time in Egypt learning and sharing their thoughts and findings. Pythagoras in particular spent years in Egypt.

Ancient scholars did not separate the sciences and arts, but in fact learnt them together as a whole in their studies, one complementing and assisting knowledge of another.

It's also been theorised that there could have beena connection between the Incas and the ancient Egyptians.

The Mayan, Inca, Greek and Egyptian civilisations were truly magnificent and contrubute far more to modern day civilisation.

Chocoholic wrote:
It's also been theorised that there could have beena connection between the Incas and the ancient Egyptians.

It would make sense because the Pheonicians are not only credited to building Carthage, but are also thought to have reached the far eastern shores of Brazil during their sea faring days when they were at their apogee.

The Pheonicians helped contribute much to the Greek and Egyptian civilizations so whats to say that they didn't have any interactions with the Incas.

They probably were the bridge between the two....

It's really interesting, I would love to go and visit the Inca civilisations.

My boyf has done the Inca trail through Peru and Mexico and he said they way things were created are incredible. That at certain times of the day when the sun is in just the right position to hit carvings or spaces in the rocks, the most amazing images appear. All created on purpose obviously. It's all so mysterious, what happened to these great minds.

Also sorry to blab on, but the BBC did a really intersting series a few years ago, where they tried to recreate one of the great Pyramids using only what the Egyptians would have had, plus todays technology and equipment, and they found it virtually impossible, even with the best architechs and astrologers, because the pyramids are all aligned to the sun and moon - amazing.

Their developments are on par with those Egyptians. They are truely wonders.

No matter how much people can blabber about how advanced we are today, I would put my money where my mouth is in categorically stating that there is no way that ANYTHING built in these modern times will stand the test of time as items built by the Incas, Egyptians, Chinese, etc....

Absolutely, I totally agree with you. Although the myth of the Sphinx is still quite interesting, when the tested the age of that, it turned out to be something like 2,000 years older than the pyramids - weird.

Lemmi sound like Mulder on the X-Files....

They were all built by aliens.... hihihi....

Liban wrote:

Chocoholic wrote:
It's also been theorised that there could have beena connection between the Incas and the ancient Egyptians.

It would make sense because the Pheonicians are not only credited to building Carthage, but are also thought to have reached the far eastern shores of Brazil during their sea faring days when they were at their apogee.

The Pheonicians helped contribute much to the Greek and Egyptian civilizations so whats to say that they didn't have any interactions with the Incas.

They probably were the bridge between the two....

You might like to read RaII by Thor Heyerdhal, who built a reed boat at the mouth of the Tigris River from the natural materials found there based entirely upon the archeological data of boats of the period. He successfully sailed it to the West Indes, thereby proving that it was possible for the early pre-christian societies to have communicated and traded. He also undertook the Kon-Tiki project and sailed a balsa wood raft across the Pacific, proving that the cultures of South East Asia and South America could also have traded.

The Plains of Nazca in Peru are a wonder of human achievement that can only be viewed from an aerial perspective. A team of scientists built and successfully flew a hot air balloon over the plains constructed entirely from materials available at the time of the Incas, based upon a temple carving of a 'God' ascending to the heavens astride a flaming cauldron.

The Pyramids are, in fact, arranged in complete symmetry with the star constellation of the Belt of Orion. Not just slightly...but exactly to 30 decimal points! The explanation of how Khufu, Khefren and Cheops, built over a combined period of over 2,000 years, were aligned to a master plan and then constructed using techniques that are subsequently lost, has yet to be solved. How the erosion around the base of the Sphinx, which Choc is correct in saying is considerably older than the Great Pyramids, was caused by water, rather than sand erosion has also yet to be explained as there is no evidence of the Giza Plain ever having been innundated.

The point is: There have been successive superior and less sophisticated civilisations on the planet. They come in fits and starts and whilst one is in the ascendency, then another will possibly be in decline. At the moment, the ascendent civilisation is not in the Middle East. Perhaps their time will come, but not in our lifetimes methinks? No one is denying that there was a time when many Middle East cultures were further advanced than others, and very possibly traded very far and wide, however they were contributary to the continual flow of historical advancement...not the inventor of it.

You say the Koran predicts the situation as it is now? Does it predict what will be the outcome? Some people claim that Nostradamus predicted the atom bomb, space travel, Hitler and countless other things...but these were only associated to his writings after the fact. If you read the actual text, they are like a horoscope: vague and open to multiple interpretations. Its easy to have 20:20 vision in hindsight.

Thankfully, there is a human condition that we are unique in posessing in the animal kindom...that of compassion. We have the choice to decide if we use it or not. Compassion comes from understanding, understanding comes from trust. If the people who would stick their heads in the sand and continuously spout religious dogma and clearly indoctrinated political diatribe were to stop and look...then maybe, just maybe they would see the bigger picture and be able to direct the future towards one of sense and reason and not violence and suffering.

Knight

What may I ask do you think the ascendant civilization is?

Please do not say the West. The West has reached a plateau and is on the decline on so many levels. No the least, socially.

The East is on the rise. Nations like India and China are going to become the next to rise. They were once great empires and it seems like they will regain their positions of power within our lifetimes.

As for the MENA region. The rise or fall of this area will depend on the leaders getting their act together. Their ego-centrical attitudes have contributed to the decline of MENA since the 1950s when signes were that things were going to get better.

The outcome you ask?

9/11 was forecasted in the Quran as the start of the end. This was the clincher that will introduce war after war in the Islamic world. These wars will grow more intense under a combined assault by the forces on darkness (practical terms, the US and Israel).

The day of armageddon will herald the End of Days. This shall be when the entire Muslim Ummah falls under sustained attack from outside. The day when even the holiest of sites are spared no mercy.

And so it goes on.

But I will stop writing about this as I can already see the nay sayers preparing their fingers to type their hollow words.

Liban wrote:What may I ask do you think the ascendant civilization is?

Please do not say the West. The West has reached a plateau and is on the decline on so many levels. No the least, socially.

The East is on the rise. Nations like India and China are going to become the next to rise. They were once great empires and it seems like they will regain their positions of power within our lifetimes.

As for the MENA region. The rise or fall of this area will depend on the leaders getting their act together. Their ego-centrical attitudes have contributed to the decline of MENA since the 1950s when signes were that things were going to get better.

The outcome you ask?

9/11 was forecasted in the Quran as the start of the end. This was the clincher that will introduce war after war in the Islamic world. These wars will grow more intense under a combined assault by the forces on darkness (practical terms, the US and Israel).

The day of armageddon will herald the End of Days. This shall be when the entire Muslim Ummah falls under sustained attack from outside. The day when even the holiest of sites are spared no mercy.

And so it goes on.

But I will stop writing about this as I can already see the nay sayers preparing their fingers to type their hollow words.

I think I might finally agree with you on a point Liban!

Yes, the ascendant societies in waiting are potentially India and China as they have established a solid internationally competitive industrial, technological and manufacturing industry. They are also currently in a strong position to benefit due to a plentiful supply of lower cost and often very skilled labour. The Roman Empire imploded due to decadence and complacency and it is very possible that a global economic meltdown would turn the currently dominant societies upside down. It is part of the cyclic nature of history. Do I personally think it would be a good or a bad thing? Well enough of us have already said until we are blue in the face that we don't neccessarily agree with our own native political direction or leadership. Maybe democracy will force through the true leaders? That has happened before.

Again, I may actually agree with you that the leaders in the MENA region do need to 'get their act together'. The late Sheikh Zayed was a great statesman and leader and he made great inroads into unifying many of the nations, however you have to question the benefit to the process of such acts as the assasination of Rafiq Hariri...or was that another US plot? (don't rise to that one Liban, I am merely pointing out that it is easy to make an inaccurate and incorrect sweeping assumption)

Now I take issue. Who says the 'Forces of Darkness' are the US and Israel? Does the Koran make direct reference to a group or party? Could not the 'Forces of Darkness' be referring to extremists and zealots from within? After all, these are as dangerous, if not more so, than an obvious and blatantly easy target such as the US. These are the enemy you cannot see, the one that sneaks up from behind you in your own home is harder to spot and defend against than the one whose flags and banners are lined up against you in plain view.

I am seriously and honestly interested to hear your view. In the same way that the 'West' is only the 'West' depending upon the place you look at it from...then the 'Enemy' is also an amorphous term that has no specific reference to any particular body. What is your perspective?

Knight

SheikhaS wrote:Arniegang well typed reply!!

Just got me thinking for a moment before about the real arguement.

You are so right when you say that lots seek refuge in the UK a western country, and sometimes it has to be said, that the UK's own people sometimes suffer to give refugees the help they need.

Anyway, Lionheart, dont you think that when the media portrays a bad image of Arabs or Muslims or whatever, you're just the type who makes things worse by "inciting racial hatred".

Oh and just wondering.....what type of computer do you use to type on this forum? Mac? Fijutsu Siemens? Sony?

Anyway, Lionheart, dont you think that when the media portrays a bad image of Arabs or Muslims or whatever, you're just the type who makes things worse by "inciting racial hatred".

I'm sorry I was to busy to find time to respond yesterday....But anyway I think you have misunderstood me... My intentions are not to incite racial hatered...but to ask the same question the average muslim around the world is asking...questions like unity between Muslims..having borderless Mid east...determining who our leaders are without Interference..determining our future without Interference... I said plenty of times I have nothing against particular race or religion.... What I'm against is Western Interference in the Mid East...

Now I take issue. Who says the 'Forces of Darkness' are the US and Israel? Does the Koran make direct reference to a group or party? Could not the 'Forces of Darkness' be referring to extremists and zealots from within? After all, these are as dangerous, if not more so, than an obvious and blatantly easy target such as the US. These are the enemy you cannot see, the one that sneaks up from behind you in your own home is harder to spot and defend against than the one whose flags and banners are lined up against you in plain view.

It could even be interpreted as the Islamic "Brotherhood" based in Egypt, or Al Queda.

Forces of darkness are the ennemies of Islam.