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Bethsmum wrote:We had collected our food and went to sit at a table with 12 chairs around it near to the window. The first defendant then came over and asked me to move tables saying they had already reserved the table and pointed to his three children who were sitting at the other end of the table.

It still doesn't indicate that the children were there first. It merely states that the children were sitting at the end of the table. Maybe they were told to go sit there and "hold" the table as the couple appeared to be finishing their meal?? If the table was "reserved" why didn't one of the children say something to the couple, like "this table is taken", when they sat down, if that was the case? Most people who see other people sitting at a table will ask "is this table taken". Assuming that the kids were there first and were asked, I'm sure if they had said "yes" the couple would have moved on to another table. I'm also sure that if the kids were there first the couple would be smart enough to assume that they were waiting for their parents, again moving on to another table.

There are so many "ifs" to what transpired prior to the assault. When things happen to expats and it makes news their full name is revealed. On the other hand when bad things happen to locals only their initials are printed in the news, so we really don't know who the Emiratis were and there really wasn't a need to him to profess his innocence as his reputation was protected. Again, no matter what lead up to the assault on the couple, it still does not change the fact that a pregnant woman was assaulted (by the 52 year old man and sat on by another Emirati). That to me is the bigger picture, not what lead up to it.

And good morning to you!!! When you come next time I'm going to take you to the Ikea cafeteria for lunch.

--- Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:55 pm ---

blueshift ,

Those born here have learned to develop that mentality. Unfortunately going from having nothing to having something bears an entitlement attitude. I'm here a total of 15 years, which is considerably long, and yet I don't have that mentality.

All over the world people use their kids as an excuse to get to the head of the line, to special seating, getting a table in a cafeteria, and the list goes on and on!!!! and then expect us to be OK with it because, well, their children are "special". I think the parents belong on the yellow bus.

Chocoholic wrote:Plus you cannot send kids to 'reserve' a table, it's not allowed in busy palces like that.

Huh?

benwj wrote:If I punched a local a few times, I'd be looking at 12 months I'd say, maybe more.

I don't think they deserve to spend 12 moths in jail, but the punishment should at least be equal.

Not really, probably about the same and some fine. But there is a chance of deportation, but the reason is different. You are not a citizen and jail time may make you eligible for deportation. But it doesn't always happen, I know a case of bengali watchman who made an assualt, he was back to work after spending sometime in jail.

--- Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:41 pm ---

Bethsmum wrote:I could give you dozens of examples of people being assaulted in England every day. It doesn't mean all English men are bullies. I could relate that story to any country in the world.

Ditto. Well said!

Well Bora, as you said, we are flogging a dead horse.

If I may make one comment on what you last posted? Not all children would speak up if adults plonked themselves down at their table. I know lots who would be just too shy to speak to an adult they had never seen before. It would depend on their age, I suppose.
If our next lunch date is Ikea, be sure to book a table for two.

@blueshift. I always try to sit as far as possible away from the kitchen that I can get.
I'm sure people do sit their children down at a table prior to buying a meal for convenience. Dubai isn't that different from other places in the world. I would suggest you get out and about a bit more. You're becoming very bitter in your old age.

Bora Bora ,

If the Canadian wasn't looking for a fight, he should have just moved. There are other ways to maintain your pride without being difficult. Being 8 months pregant does not excuse a women from having to move or for being mouthy about it.


Chocoholic ,

Of course there are no written rules, but anyone with children knows that sometimes the only way to reserve a table is to send them to sit there whilst the parents get the food. It is common courtesy to ask the children if the table is free before sitting down.

How many 12 seat tables are there in Ikea? I haven't seen any. Did the parents need to push them together to make one?

More unanswered questions to think about.

Flying Dutchman , It's Ikea - you cannot 'reserve' tables. It's go and get your meal, then find somewhere to sit. I've shared tables with people in there on plenty of occassions as it's always rammed.

--- Thu Feb 09, 2012 5:29 pm ---

As Bora says, it doesn't matter the ifs and whys, beating someone up over a table is ridiculous. Beating a pregnant woman is a ing act.

benwj wrote:If the Canadian wasn't looking for a fight, he should have just moved. There are other ways to maintain your pride without being difficult. Being 8 months pregant does not excuse a women from having to move or for being mouthy about it

Oh, lordy. Now the Canadian was looking for a fight. That's quite an assumption. Do you also assume that when he woke up that morning he told himself: yeah, today seems like a good day to go look for a fight with a few locals!!! Who's to say that the local wasn't looking for a fight seeing as how he threw the first punch? I guess he's so full of pride that he could afford to lose some by assaulting a pregnant woman.

You're right. She should have moved and since she didn't she deserved getting punched in the face and sat on. Maybe she planned that in her day as well???

No one of us commenting on what happened that lead up to the confrontation was there to witness it. All we have are articles and some people seem to have a reading comprehension problem or want to jump to their own conclusions and rewrite what happened. I can say with certainty that if it was a local couple sitting at the table they would not have been told to move.

Now, maybe the crap that transpired before the assault is a bigger issue to some and want to justify the assault on a pregnant woman. I can't find any reason whatsoever for anyone assaulting a woman, and more so a pregnant woman.Doesn't say much about a person who thinks she deserved it and it was justified. But, you are entitled to your opinion.

The thing about online forums is that almost any crime, big or small, can be justified by blaming the victim



If she wasnt looking to get raped what was she doing jogging at night?

If he did not want to get shot, maybe he should have carried a bit more cash to give to the mugger?

If she did not want to get smacked in the face maybe she should have left her seat for a non paying customer because he is a Lord (thats for Chocoholics friend!)



and so on...

The lesson we are being told is move when you are told to, jump when you are told to, sit down when you are told to, and if you dont, benwj will call your behavior "being diffiicult" and it will be your fault if you are hit

BlackburnRovers wrote:The lesson we are being told is move when you are told to, jump when you are told to, sit down when you are told to, and if you dont, benwj will call your behavior "being diffiicult" and it will be your fault if you are hit

Or alternatively be a little bit more respectful when you are a guest in someone's country and don't gob off when you are requested to find your own table.

BlackburnRovers wrote:The lesson we are being told is move when you are told to, jump when you are told to, sit down when you are told to, and if you dont, benwj will call your behavior "being diffiicult" and it will be your fault if you are hit

That does appear to sum up the 'argument' quite well.

Pregnant woman gets punched and knocked to ground. Pregnant woman does not make any physical attack. In my view, the pregnant woman is not to blame (talking back not excuse for hitting, let alone eating at 12 seater table with 3 children at one end!)


I wonder, had the attacker(s) been Canadian and the lady Emirati, would the sentence and judgements (on line) be any different?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:I wonder, had the attacker(s) been Canadian and the lady Emirati, would the sentence and judgements (on line) be any different?

I don't think so.

Bethsmum , Are you kidding! Oh so you go around telling all the immigrants in the UK it's your country and to move when you want them to? I don't think so! BM, you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. How about we look at everyone as a HUMAN BEING and cast nationalities aside shall we? And so what if it's their country, if someone else is there first they have NO RIGHT, to ask them to move at all. Let alone beat them up over it. Again it comes back down to certain people assuming they have some sort of entitlement over others, seeing themselves as superior and it's not the case at all. Don't get all high and mighty on the locals side, because that's really pisses most expats off.

I know people who were born in the UAE and have lived here all their lives, yet they are still treated like outsiders. Just because you are of a certain nationality does not give you the right to treat others in such a way - seriously get your head read and grow up. Sadly it's people with attitudes like yours, who think they should be allowed to act in such a disrespectful way to others and treat other people like they're nothing which is the biggest problem!

No, these people need to learn that they cannot treat other people like garbage and have respect for others as HUMAN BEINGS. Most of the locals I know hate attitudes shown by some of their 'brothers' and the short sighted people like you who support them.

Chocoholic , Do calm down dear. Your furtile and over active imagination appears to have gone into overdrive this morning. I don't believe I have said (nor think) any of the thoughts you attribute to me.

I do think it is you who should grow up and realise that people are entitled to form their own opinions on situations.

You really should learn to make your point whilst leaving out the personal attacks.

Now run along and be thankful I'm not one to complain or I would be knocking a PM out to Andy to point out that not only have you slandered me on this forum in the past by calling me a hard core alcoholic and Hitler but you are now claiming I go round pushing immigrants around in the UK.

Chocoholic wrote:I don't think so! BM, you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.

Or you are prejidiced. As far as criminal law is concerned all are equal, go consult a reputable lawyer(s). Sure locals get more in welfare support, but it is their country isn't it?

BlackburnRovers wrote:If she wasnt looking to get raped what was she doing jogging at night?

You know there is no such thing as rape in Dubai, unless of course, it's an expat being accused of such a crime. From everything I read, it was always consensual, even if there multiple people charged. Or, you know that old story: she was asking for it.

--- Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:10 pm ---

Nucleus wrote:
shafique wrote:I wonder, had the attacker(s) been Canadian and the lady Emirati, would the sentence and judgements (on line) be any different?

I don't think so.

Yeah, the case would have been thrown out of court and the Canadian attacker would have been told: job well done!!!

BM, Sorry but your opinions hold little weight, as you don't live here, so you don't see what happens on a daily basis and only have what you read in the press to go on really. I didn't claim you push immigrants around, I was making the comparison, I said WOULD you? BEcause it's your country, therefore would you feel entitled to push other people about just because they're guests in the UK? A question which you failed to answer, which merely shows your double standards to be honest. BM< you always tunr to threats when you're losing an argument - pfff the amount of times you've slandered and attacked people on here - pot, kettle, black!

Nucleus, the law here has always been biased, everyone knows it so I'm not sure who you're trying to kid with that one. To quote one local 'The police and law are for expats, NOT for us!' - yes I've heard that come out of one guys mouth with my own ears - says it all.

--- Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:33 pm ---

Bora Bora , You forgot that in the case3 of rape, the vitctim would be charged with sex outside of marriage and be jailed for it. We've seen this how many times? More than I can count.

Chocoholic wrote:BM, Sorry but your opinions hold little weight, as you don't live here, so you don't see what happens on a daily basis and only have what you read in the press to go on really. I didn't claim you push immigrants around, I was making the comparison, I said WOULD you? BEcause it's your country, therefore would you feel entitled to push other people about just because they're guests in the UK? A question which you failed to answer, which merely shows your double standards to be honest. BM< you always tunr to threats when you're losing an argument - pfff the amount of times you've slandered and attacked people on here - pot, kettle, black!

And now you're just making yourself look even more foolish that you normally do.

Chocoholic ,

You are making a pretty good argument for moving when requested by a local.

I know as well as you that an expat cannot win against a local in court.

The couple have lived in Dubai long enough to know this as well.

With this in mind, why would you then refuse to move? Getting hit and then going to court is not going to change anything.

Chocoholic wrote:Nucleus, the law here has always been biased, everyone knows it so I'm not sure who you're trying to kid with that one. To quote one local 'The police and law are for expats, NOT for us!' - yes I've heard that come out of one guys mouth with my own ears - says it all.

Not true. Lot of opinion and no proof. Anybody can say anything, but if you check the actual records, both locals and non-locals go to jail for breaking the law. I know a case of Bangali watchman who assaulted a local and got much less. He only spent a week in jail and no fine. Assualt cases range from 1 day to 1 month in jail for both locals and non-locals. 1 month is the higher end in the usual range what they have given here. You don't have to believe me, you can go to a lawyer and find it yourself.

You can also check with a lawyer to confirm that a muslim's testimony is taken as 100% true. A non-muslims testimony does not carry the same weight (to a muslim judge). Basically, if it comes down to a muslim's testimony against a non-muslim, the muslim will win every time.

If the expat has any amount of alcohol is there system, their testimony is pretty much scrap. ie if they get into a fight, get raped, or do anything to a local after having a few drinks.

The Bengali watchman must have headbutted the local's fist with his face. But yeah, he only got 1 week in jail for it didn't he!

benwj wrote:You can also check with a lawyer to confirm that a muslim's testimony is taken as 100% true. A non-muslims testimony does not carry the same weight (to a muslim judge). Basically, if it comes down to a muslim's testimony against a non-muslim, the muslim will win every time.

Not true, just another prejudice and stereotyping.

benwj wrote:If the expat has any amount of alcohol is there system, their testimony is pretty much scrap.

That is somewhat correct.

benwj wrote:ie if they get into a fight, get raped, or do anything to a local after having a few drinks.

Not true.

benwj wrote:The Bengali watchman must have headbutted the local's fist with his face. But yeah, he only got 1 week in jail for it didn't he!

Since he is an expat now punishment is too much, which would be the same if it was a local. wow, just wow.

Probably punched the local in the face. When I went close local's nose was bleeding and dress was slightly tore up. He didn't hit him back, he called the police. But local wasn't entirely free from fault either. He parked in the wrong place and I heard he was shouting at him. But these cases normally happen, just not hyped in the news, both locals and non-locals go to jail for these things with similar terms. Facts vs stereotypes.

LOL you can believe what you like Nucleus, sadly you're wearing rose tinted glasses and it's not true at all. Yes people all might get prison terms, but for some crimes locals merely get a slap on the wrist, whereas expats get the book thrown at them FACT - you only have to compare similar crimes to see this. Plus locals can accuse expats of anything, even when they've done nothing - case in point the Doc flicking the finger, which is the very reason he never came back to go to court, because he knew full well he'd never get a fair hearing. If things are so even, why then is CCTV evidence- obviously showing the defendants guilt - not allowed?

For years the justice systme has been biased, why do you think there is such uproar everytime a case like this comes to light? There's no smoke without fire as they say.

I really have nothing more to add to this discussion. Let's see what happens with their appeal.

Benjw, why would I refuse to move? er because I was there first, I'm in the middle of eating. I would offer for them to 'share' the table. But I'm not moving for anyone and I don't care who some people 'think' they are.

Chocoholic wrote:Benjw, why would I refuse to move? er because I was there first, I'm in the middle of eating. I would offer for them to 'share' the table. But I'm not moving for anyone and I don't care who some people 'think' they are.

What would you do if you'd been shopping with all the crew in Ikea and decided to have something to eat. You pull a couple of tables together, sit the kids down, ask them what they want, and go to the counter to make your purchases. You turn around and a couple of people, who you've never seen before in your life, have sat themselves down at your table. You approach them and ask them, politely, to shift. The woman gives you a few verbals and refuses to move, saying she is far too pregnant to do anything but sit there and the husband says he's standing behind his wife and you can shove it?

Would you move along and find another table or stand your ground, that you were there first?

Are you serious BM? Almost anyone would walk away from a situation like that.

Obviously, not everyone wants to walk away from a situation like that. Occasionally you encounter someone with anger management issues who's inclined to escalate a minor incident to violence. Maybe you like men like that, but to most of us, they are thugs whom we would rather avoid.

Chocoholic: wrote:LOL you can believe what you like Nucleus, sadly you're wearing rose tinted glasses and it's not true at all. Yes people all might get prison terms, but for some crimes locals merely get a slap on the wrist, whereas expats get the book thrown at them FACT - you only have to compare similar crimes to see this. Plus locals can accuse expats of anything, even when they've done nothing - case in point the Doc flicking the finger, which is the very reason he never came back to go to court, because he knew full well he'd never get a fair hearing. If things are so even, why then is CCTV evidence- obviously showing the defendants guilt - not allowed?

Right I'm the one wearing the tinted glasses. ^^ i don't see any facts just stereotyping. Locals can't accuse expats of anything. Proof please. Well anybody can accuse anyone of anything but court requires evidence. You don't even know why CCTV wasn't used, but you are making accusations. One month is usually the maximum given in assault cases. Video wouldn't have made much difference with the 1 month jail and aed 12,000 fine.

blueshift wrote:Are you serious BM?

The last time I looked I was very serious. I was looking for an answer to my scenario.

--- Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:08 pm ---

blueshift wrote:Almost anyone would walk away from a situation like that.

Obviously, not everyone wants to walk away from a situation like that

Which is it, almost anyone or not everyone? Now I'm asking you if you are serious? You mean you would turn tail and walk away if someone blatantly took your table and refused to move on when asked?

That's being a wimp in my book.

--- Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:11 pm ---

blueshift wrote:Occasionally you encounter someone with anger management issues who's inclined to escalate a minor incident to violence.

Occasionaly you encounter someone who is so rude that they refuse a simple request and things get out of hand. It happens I'm afraid. I'm not saying it's right but it takes two to tango.

--- Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:13 pm ---

blueshift wrote:Maybe you like men like that, but to most of us, they are thugs whom we would rather avoid

You have absolutely no idea how I like my men to act, but it sure isn't like a coward who turns tail and wimps off as soon as someone says BOO.

--- Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:15 pm ---

And just for clarification, if I was on my own and someone took my seat/parking space etc etc, I'd have something to say about it too.

I was brought up to stick up for myself but apologise if I was found to be in the wrong. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Nucleus ,

This isn't stereotyping. Locals aren't bad, there are good and bad just like every other country. The behaviour of the police and the legal system here is somewhat disturbing for expatriates. It seems all expatriates believe that there is a double standard in this country - I've never met one that doesn't. I don't think your story about the Bengali watchman is going to change anyone's mind.

I googled assault in dubai and I see one Egyptian got 1 year for assaulting his Emerati boss and two colleagues even though there is no suggestion of injury and the defendant claims they injured him.

Also there is the fire Asian men who got 10 years for assaulting an Emerati police officer, although in this case there seems to be some injury to the policeman as they stabbed him with some sharp object.

Expatriates read stories like this where some Emeratis came from behind a man and gave him a blow to the back of the head risking serious injury or death, then assulted his pregnant wife inflicting serious injury to her jaw and risking the death of her unborn child. The offenders are never arrested and the police and legal system try for nearly 3 years to make the case go away. This does not surprise any expatriates who are familiar with the region. The police and legal system is just one of the disadvantages of living here - like the heat in summer and the dangerous roads. The salaries may be good, but this is offset by other things.

http://www.uaeexchangerate.info/2011/11 ... s-for.html

blueshift wrote:This isn't stereotyping. Locals aren't bad, there are good and bad just like every other country.

That is what I'm saying, and almost all posts in this thread is stereotyping locals.

blueshift wrote:The behaviour of the police and the legal system here is somewhat disturbing for expatriates.

I suggest looking at the actual police records. Maybe at the lower level where somebody influenctial or friends with the police guy, but if a case goes to court I've not seen it. But that happens everywhere in the world.

blueshift wrote: It seems all expatriates believe that there is a double standard in this country

That could be because of the stereotypes. Locals do get more in welfare support but not in criminal law.

blueshift wrote:I googled assault in dubai and I see one Egyptian got 1 year for assaulting his Emerati boss and two colleagues even though there is no suggestion of injury and the defendant claims they injured him.

I don't know the details.

blueshift wrote:Also there is the fire Asian men who got 10 years for assaulting an Emerati police officer, although in this case there seems to be some injury to the policeman as they stabbed him with some sharp object.

That is not just assault case, it is also mixed with running a brothel. And assault is not just assault it is attempted murder of a police officer. You are comparing oranges with apples.

How it happened

Prosecutors said the defendants ganged up on the policeman, identified as R.M., who was part of the team that raided the brothel. They also assaulted two Pakistani drivers, identified as S.F. and R.B., whom they thought were part of the raiding team.

"We stormed into the flat and found four Chinese women and four men — one Chinese and three Pakistanis [including S.F. and R.B.]. A group of Chinese men attacked us while taking the men into custody. They attacked us with sharp tools. One of them stabbed me right beneath my neck. They stabbed us on our hands and chests while we tried to avoid the stabbings. The Pakistani men were attacked as well. We ran away through the building's stairways. They chased us and stabbed us," the policeman said.

http://www.uaeexchangerate.info/2011/11 ... s-for.html

We don't know what kind of tools were used in the attack, but there was no mention of any injury and no doctors assessment, so the attackers may not have inflicted serious injury.

The point is if an expatriate attacks an Emarati the sentence will be much more sever than if an Emerati attacks an expatriate.

If you think the legal system in the UAE is impartial, then very few people would agree with you.

An extreme example is the Grain Merchant who was vidoe taped being tortured by the Abu Dhabi royal and police. The government statement said its review found "all rules, policies and procedures were followed correctly by the Police Department." A court also aquited the perpetrators and convicted the people responsible for leaking the video.

Fine, the court system is corrupt and they don't care who knows.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Man+gets+ ... 0270313014

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Issa_bin_Zayed_Al_Nahyan

blueshift wrote:We don't know what kind of tools were used in the attack, but there was no mention of any injury and no doctors assessment, so the attackers may not have inflicted serious injury.

"They attacked us with sharp tools. One of them stabbed me right beneath my neck." << That is attempted murder not simply assault case + running a brothel.

blueshift wrote:The point is if an expatriate attacks an Emarati the sentence will be much more sever than if an Emerati attacks an expatriate.

That is not true, and I've not see any proof. Doesn't even know policeman was Emarati, most policemen here are Yemeni. And it is not simply an assault case.

Your first link in your post above is again not just an assault case. It is mixed with embazzelment case.

Second link, seriously? You gonna compare that to average Emirati? Remember OJ Simpson. And that is not even murder case. And it shows law is very strong here. First, he made the guy sign against any cases later on, he is a prince, and if he wasn't afraid of the law what was the point making him sign that document? Second, it didn't work so lawyer was smart and made it an insanity case. This happens anywhere in the world. At least some people here got money out of DAMAC. Good luck against Trump, his two projects I know have been stalled in the US since the property market crash and nobody have gotten anything out of it.