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I'm very interested in the eschatological teachings of Islam.

I know Muslims believe in the end times they will take part in a genocide against Jews.

And, as you can see in this Hamas video, this is very much a current and popular belief:



But what saying of prophet Muhammad is Hamas citing when they speak of the future killing of the Jewish people?

And is/are the hadith(s) considered authentic?

Perhaps Muhammad had this genocidal hadith in mind when he religiously purged much of the Arabian peninsula of Jews (and Christians)?

Hadith about the end-times after Jesus (pbuh) kills the anti-christ. Those jews will be with the anti-christ. Not sure if it is in authentic collection, but it is not in first two authentic collections.

Do you happen to know the hadith in full? It appears Hamas must really be into eschatology too because they quote this saying about killing Jews quite often.

The Dajjal will claim that he is God. He will perform mighty acts to convince people of his claim. But, every true believer, whether literate or illiterate, will be able to read the word kafir on his forehead, as stated by Prophet Muhammad (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam). He (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) has also described his physical appearance as: short, fat, red-faced, bow-legged, with curly hair and one-eyed. One of his eyes is extinguished, and is neither protruding nor deep-seated, but resembles a floating grape. "If you are confused, know that your Lord is not one-eyed, and that no one will be able to see the Lord [in this world]."

The Dajjal will acquire assistance from devils: "He will say to a Bedouin: 'What do you think if I bring your father and mother back to life for you'? Will you bear witness that I am your Lord?' The Bedouin will say, 'Yes', so two devils will assume the appearance of his father and mother and will say: 'O son follow him, for he is your Lord.'" (ibn Majah, ibn Khuzaymah, and al-Hakim).

Animals and objects will execute his orders: "He will come to people and call them, and they will believe in him and answer his call. Upon his order, the sky will rain, and the Earth will produce crops. Their animals will graze on these crops, and will come back with their udders full of milk and their flanks stretched. Then he will go to other people and will call them, but they will reject his call. He will depart from them and then they will suffer great famine and will possess nothing in the form of wealth. He will pass by the wasteland and say: 'bring forth your treasures' and its treasures will follow him like swarms of bees." (Muslim).

Prophet Mohammad صلى الله عليه وسلم said: "Exactly at the time when the Imam of the Muslims will have stepped forward to lead them in the Morning Prayer, Jesus son of Mary عليه السلام shall descend upon them. The Imam will step back so that Jesus may step forward (to lead the Prayer), but Jesus عليه السلام, placing his hand between his two shoulders, will say, "No, you should lead, for the congregation has assembled to follow you. So, the Imam will lead the Prayer. After the salutation, Jesus will say, "Open the gate;" so the gate will be opened. Outside, there will be the Dajjal, along with 70,000 of the armed Jews. As soon as the Anti-Christ sees Jesus (upon whom be peace), he will start dissolving like salt in water, and will flee. Jesus will say, "I shall strike you a blow which will not allow you survive." And he (Jesus عليه السلام) will overtake him (Anti-Christ) at the eastern gate of Lud (a city 13 miles east of Tel Aviv, Israel), and Allah will cause the Jews to be defeated.... And the Earth will be so filled with the Muslims as a vessel is filled with water. The entire world shall recite and follow one and the same Kalimah (the testimony of Islam: There is no god, but Allah. Mohammad is a Messenger of Allah) and none shall be worshipped except Allah." (Ibn Majah).

http://www.discoveringislam.org/return_of_jesus.htm

As an aside, the prophecies about Dajjal's donkey are very interesting I find - they were phrased to make sense to 7th century Arabs and take on a new meaning today, IMO.

I also find quite a lot of similarity between the descriptions of the latter days in Hadith and the descriptions of the same period in the Bible - notably Revelation, as we saw in the earlier thread in this quote from a Christian website explaining Biblical teachings:

Jesus' second coming will be exceedingly violent. Revelation 19:11-21 describes the ultimate war with Christ, the conquering commander who judges and makes war "with justice" (v. 11). It's going to be bloody (v. 13) and gory. The birds will eat the flesh of all those who oppose Him (v. 17-18). He has no compassion upon His enemies, whom He will conquer completely and consign to a "fiery lake of burning sulfur" (v. 20).

It is an error to say that God never supports a war. Jesus is not a pacifist.

philosophy-dubai/violent-expectations-bible-t47077.html#p384682

A destructive latter days is found in most religions - eg in Hinduism, the age of Kali is couched in similar terms too.

These similarities are not 'whataboutery' arguments as they don't seek to excuse what was prophecised, but highlight that it appears to be a common theme in prophecies of the latter days.

Cheers,
Shafique

I think I found the hadiths Hamas cites when they call for the killing of Jews:

Sahih Bukhari Hadith Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176: Narrated by 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.'"

Sahih Bukhari Hadith Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177: Narrated by Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

What the hadith says is intriguing. The last days will not arrive until Muslims begin killing Jews, as the above two authentic hadith make clear.



Actually, the differences between the last days in Christianity and Islam are as clear as night and day. Islam explicitly teaches that Muslims will do the killing where in the Bible only God and heavenly beings will carry out violence. It's the difference between an act of God and outright genocide.

Unfortunately, we see that this hadith quite literally inspires Jew hatred and genocidal views among Muslims today as the video proves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vtt8V25l ... re=related

Judgment Day will not come until the Muslims fight the Jews. And the Muslims will kill them (quotes hadith) -0.35 mark

We have been ordered to vanquish the Jews and evacuate them. Allah's judgment must be carried out. - 2:10 mark

event horizon wrote:Actually, the differences between the last days in Christianity and Islam are as clear as night and day. Islam explicitly teaches that Muslims will do the killing where in the Bible only God and heavenly beings will carry out violence. It's the difference between an act of God and outright genocide.

But hold on - you argued that the slaughtering of babies by Israelites as described in Numbers WAS an act of God. Israelites aren't 'heavenly beings' are they?

Both Hadith and Revelations talk of wars - and hence fighting. So even under revelations, those Jews who do not accept Jesus as Christ will be among those slaughtered. Right?

I presume you are one of the Christians who believe in Rapture and that you will therefore magically disappear when the time comes, so won't take part in the slaughter. But not all Christians believe in Rapture - do they? What if you're wrong?

Cheers,

Shafique

Uh, yeah. A war between heaven and the wicked is what Revelation (not Revelations) foretells. Nowhere I'm aware of does it say Christians will take part in the fighting.

This contrasts with Muslim teachings that Judgment Day won't arrive until Muslims kill Jews.

You didn't actually answer the question posed eh. (As usual).

Will the Jews who do not accept Christ be among those slaughtered according to Revelations?

Now, for those Christians who do not believe in Rapture and will be on earth when the slaughter happens - do they just sit and watch the slaughter and not fight with Jesus?

If you excused Israelites who slaughter babies, and excuse heavenly beings for slaughtering Jews and others who do not accept Jesus as saviour - what exactly is your point against Hadith which say men will fight along side Jesus?

Cheers,
Shafique

I have no reason to believe Jews will be slaughtered.

But hey, Revelation is interpreted metaphorically by a majority of Christians.

As far as I know, Revelation does not say Christians participate in violence. That runs counter with the genocidal teachings in Islam where the Las Days will be ushered in with the killing of Jews.

and excuse heavenly beings for slaughtering Jews

Interesting question. What's your excuse for excusing the slaughter of men, women and children in the Koran carried out by Allah and his minions?

I'm not aware that Jews will be slaughtered. This differs with the teachings of Islam and that Muslims today cite to call for the killing of Jews.

Do you speak for the Majority of Christians now? Interesting - may I ask on what basis you are making these claims?

But let me humour you - How many believe in Rapture? Is it the majority?

You ask about my interpretations of the Hadith of the latter days - and what my 'excuse' is? Well, for me it is clear - in the latter days there will be great wars and much death. There will be natural calamities - pestilence and plague, and also wars. There will also be wars between those on the side of good and those on the side of evil.

Some of the prophecies will be literally fulfilled, others are metaphorical - I believe.

Now, many of your fellow American Christians who believe in the actual slaughter of people are in no doubt that the Jews who reject Jesus as Christ will be amongst those being slaughtered - Evangelical Christians are quite clear on this - Jews who do not become Christians will be killed. This Rabbi covers this in this interesting article on Evangelical Christians:

http://headenver.org/rabbidollin/2011/0 ... -the-jews/

Cheers,
Shafique

Thank you for the article, I agree with the author's conclusions:

For the Evangelical community there is nothing at all that justifies harming the Jewish people in any way. Secondly: for them, there is no point in trying to convert Jews to Christianity. It won't happen. Only God's intervention will bring the Jews to Christ and as I have mentioned above, that will only happen in the end of days.

Thirdly and most important. Evangelicals believe that Rapture and Armageddon and Tribulation and Jesus’ thousand year rule is brought about by God alone. Human beings cannot in any way influence this process.

They [Evengelicals] do not believe that human beings can do anything at all to bring the Messiah. God does this alone. Helping Jews move to Israel, supporting and protecting Israel, sending money to Israel, being supportive of the Jewish community, combating anti-Semitism: they do this because they believe that God demands it of them. It has nothing to do with their hastening the second coming of Christ.

That should tell you all you need to know about the Last Days and whether Christians take part in battle. Not to mention what the author explains that Jews will convert - not be slaughtered - during the Second Coming. Actually, I believe Revelation says all people will have a chance to convert to Christianity.

But what's with the hypotheticals? We know Muslim yearning to fulfill the end times prophecies in Islam. I'm not aware of any Christians who seek to kill Jews because misinterpreted Revelation into believing that Jews will be slaughtered or that Christians will take part in fighting alongside God.

When Jesus comes, the Jews who do not convert will be slaughtered - as I stated, what does it matter to those Jews who does the slaughtering? (And helping Jews to move to Israel so that prophecies of their destruction if they don't convert is quite a disturbing logic, to me at least.)

Those Christians who do not believe in Rapture - will they just watch Jesus and his army do the slaughtering? What would the objection to humans joining the holy army be?

(You didn't answer my question - do the majority believe in Rapture?)

Cheers,
Shafique

So you agree there is no difference between Allah slaughtering men, women and children and God ordering others to do some slaughtering? Is that what you're saying?

Anyways, the New Testament speaks of an act of God and Islam says Muslims must slaughter Jews before the end days can arrive.

With the bloodlust for Jews throughout the Muslim world, can we assume Muslims are ready for the Last Days?

Nice try eh - but no, I do not agree with your particular extremist views and do not believe it is ever justified for men to kill women and children in cold blood. Ever.

Now - can you try and answer the questions posed - let's limit ourselves first to two easy ones:

1. Do you think the majority of Christians believe in Rapture?

2. Those Christians who are around - will they simply watch the slaughter of Jews who do not convert etc as described in the Bible?

Cheers,
Shafique

Nice try eh - but no, I do not agree with your particular extremist views and do not believe it is ever justified for men to kill women and children in cold blood. Ever.

What does it matter to the victims in the Koran who does the slaughtering?

I'm sorry, I can't comprehend your hypocritical stance. Do you have an explanation on the differences between God of the Bible killing people and Allah of the Koran? If not, then please explain your previous comment that you do not see a difference between humans (Muslims) slaughtering Jews and God of the Bible punishing the wicked?

(And helping Jews to move to Israel so that prophecies of their destruction if they don't convert is quite a disturbing logic, to me at least.)

Huh? You must not have read the article carefully enough. Evangelicals do not believe their actions can bring about the End Times. They could ignore the Jews. Evangelicals believe the Messiah will still arrive at the same time regardless of their actions. Instead, Evangelicals help Jews because they believe God demands it of them:

they do this because they believe that God demands it of them. It has nothing to do with their hastening the second coming of Christ.

You're confused eh. I don't share your extremist views - no ifs, no buts.

I asked you a few times now - do you believe the majority of Christians share the view of Rapture and believe they will vanish before Jesus and his army start killing those who do not convert?

I do indeed see a big distinction between men slaughtering women and children, and descriptions of wars in the latter days in Hadith. The rules of war fare will not change in the latter days - and it will still be illegal under Islam to commit the acts described in the Bible, and which you say are 'acts of God'.

Your squirming is palpable - but you can't disguise/excuse the fact that Evangelicals do believe that Jews who do not convert will be slaughtered.

Cheers,

Shafique

event horizon wrote:What the hadith says is intriguing. The last days will not arrive until Muslims begin killing Jews, as the above two authentic hadith make clear.

That is by the muslim army led by Jesus (p), you can complain to Jesus (p). Btw, authentic doesn't mean its true. It goes against the verse in Quran so I take that hadith with wee bit of salt. Anyhow, you can take it up with Jesus (p).

but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression. [Quran: 2:193]

I do indeed see a big distinction between men slaughtering women and children, and descriptions of wars in the latter days in Hadith. The rules of war fare will not change in the latter days - and it will still be illegal under Islam to commit the acts described in the Bible, and which you say are 'acts of God'.

So did Allah commit a war crime when he slaughtered entire cities in the Koran?

What differences to the victims does it make who does the killing?

but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression. [Quran: 2:193]

Fight them, till there is no persecution and the religion is God's; then if they give over, there shall be no enmity save for evildoers. Koran 2:193

eh, no matter how you twist things - you will not convince me to share your extremist views and justify the slaughter of babies by men using the excuse 'God told me to do it' like you do.

I do make a big, BIG, distinction between men hacking children to pieces or dropping bombs on civilians and a tornado or earthquake. I do not justify a man killing children by saying it is like an earthquake and an 'act of God'.

The fact that you do and want me to join you in this belief is frankly disturbing.

Now let's see if you will now answer the question posed to you:

shafique wrote:I asked you a few times now - do you believe the majority of Christians share the view of Rapture and believe they will vanish before Jesus and his army start killing those who do not convert?

You seem to be ashamed that Evangelical Christians believe that Jesus (as a man) will commit genocide - he will slaughter the Jews who do not convert. If you disagree with them - can you e-mail your evangelical friends and tell them they are wrong.

Cheers,
Shafique

believe that Jesus (as a man) will commit genocide

Uh, no. Sorry. Jesus as a man is not going to commit genocide. If you learned Christianity from reading the Bible or consulting Christians you frankly would know this.

eh, no matter how you twist things - you will not convince me to share your extremist views and justify the slaughter of babies by men using the excuse 'God told me to do it' like you do.

Actually, you compared the killing of Jews by Muslims to the killing of evil doers by God in the book of Revelation.

You seem to be ashamed that Evangelical Christians

Sorry, is this coming from someone who can't admit whether he believes Muhammad is the last and final messenger and prophet of Allah?

Ashamed of beliefs, eh?

Wow - you have some major denial issues there eh.

shafique wrote:I asked you a few times now - do you believe the majority of Christians share the view of Rapture and believe they will vanish before Jesus and his army start killing those who do not convert?

You seem to be ashamed that Evangelical Christians believe that Jesus (as a man) will commit genocide - he will slaughter the Jews who do not convert.If you disagree with them - can you e-mail your evangelical friends and tell them they are wrong.

event horizon wrote:Sorry. Jesus as a man is not going to commit genocide

Really - will Jesus not be killing all the Jews who don't convert, or will he not be a man when he does the killing? Which is it?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon wrote:So did Allah commit a war crime when he slaughtered entire cities in the Koran?

You have to show me that in Quran.

event horizon but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression. [Quran: 2:193]


Fight them, till there is no persecution and the religion is God's; then if they give over, there shall be no enmity save for evildoers. Koran 2:193

And your point is? My point is if opposing army stops fighting then muslims are commanded to stop fighting. And that hadith goes against this injunction.

And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
But if they cease, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God. But if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

[Quran: 191-193]

shafique wrote:I do not justify a man killing children by saying it is like an earthquake

No, you say it serves to highlight the occupation.

Fail again. Either you have a weird selective memory that invents posts, or you really don't remember what I have actually posted.

I've never, ever, joined event horizon and justified the killing of any civilians. The fact you can only make sly innuendo and never quote me direct or fully speaks volumes.

Sad really.

Cheers,
Shafique

In an all-too-familiar streak, the latest cycle of violence in Palestine is the news of the shooting of 4 civilians in the West Bank.

Whilst Fatah controls this area, it is the military wing of Hamas that has taken credit for what it calls a 'targeted killing' but is nothing more than a terrorist act that has killed 4 settlers/colonists. There is certainly no excuse for killing civilians in targeted attacks or bombs etc - so those celebrating the killings are as bad as those who celebrate and condone other killings of civilians - and the cycle of killing will surely continue with more civilians being killed as a result of this killing.

The target and timing is pretty clearly aimed at the peace talks in the US - and serves to highlight the fact that on the Palestinian side, the theft of land and presence of illegal colonies on land captured in 1967 is an issue that won't be swept under the carpet of spin.

The fact the pregnant woman and three others were illegal colonists does not excuse their killing, but does explain why they were targeted. It was disheartening, but predictable, that the reactions of other colonists was to call for the blood of Palestinians in retaliation. But what is expected, as in much of the Palestinian issue, what colonists want, colonists will get. I just hope I'm wrong (this time).

Chilling.

Did you not read what I wrote?

What part of 'does not excuse their killing' confused you?

(And are you really alergic to posting links to my quotes, or are you just lazy/ashamed to link??)

Edit - I suspect you are ashamed. For if you posted the link, readers would have seen you called out that time too:

shafique wrote:You really can't stop yourself spinning can you FD? Two wrongs don't make a right - the terrorist attack is inexcusable, but it is also no reason to excuse the illegal colonies either (or to make silly remarks about the PA's objections to more illegal colonies)

dubai-politics-talk/killed-west-bank-t43101.html#p345916

Your spin failed then, it has failed now.

Sad. And as the last post in the thread highlighted - perhaps you should relook at your tactics and motivations:

shafique wrote:Can you really not make a coherent and honest argument without having to resort to selective quotes and spin?

Then again, perhaps you're just a manifestation of the anxiety that the right wing in Israel is facing at the prospect of peace and at the prospect of having to live up to International law and give up illegally annexed lands etc.

Cheers,
Shafique

Cold blood killing of a pregant woman shouldn't serve anything Shaf. I cannot imagine how rotten and black somebody most be inside who says it does serve something.

And your point is? My point is if opposing army stops fighting then muslims are commanded to stop fighting. And that hadith goes against this injunction.

Hamas clerics disagree. The Koran "condemns Jews to extermination":

I didn't saw the video, but if he says that he is wrong.