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Nucleus wrote: what is not answered in the video? It says to separate

When you say seperate, do you mean, as in divorce?

Bethsmum wrote:When you say seperate, do you mean, as in divorce?

Not divorce, living apart.

--- Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:54 pm ---

Flying Dutchman wrote:W h a t...I s...A...R e b e l l i o u s...W i f e ?

No idea. Maybe a biker wife?

Nucleus wrote:Not divorce, living apart.

I wonder if you realise how difficult it is for a wife to leave her husband? You can't just up and leave. Where would she go? Not everyone can upsticks and go back to their parents. Would it be acceptable for a Muslim wife to go home to her parents? Would her father allow it?
What would happen to the children? Doesn't the father have ultimate control over the kids?
I don't know many mothers who would leave her kids behind.

So, unless the husband was all in favour of living apart from his wife, I would say this isn't going to happen and she'd just have to take one for the family.

Nucleus wrote:Maybe a biker wife?

LOL, better not mess with them, they will whip you good!

Bethsmum wrote:I wonder if you realise how difficult it is for a wife to leave her husband? You can't just up and leave. Where would she go? Not everyone can upsticks and go back to their parents. Would it be acceptable for a Muslim wife to go home to her parents? Would her father allow it?
What would happen to the children? Doesn't the father have ultimate control over the kids?
I don't know many mothers who would leave her kids behind.

So, unless the husband was all in favour of living apart from his wife, I would say this isn't going to happen and she'd just have to take one for the family.

A person can take Prophet (pbuh) example, and move out of the house himself.

Nucleus wrote:A person can take Prophet (pbuh) example, and move out of the house himself

Well, in a perfect world with a reasonable husband, this might happen.

Unfortunately when it comes to seperation and divorce, love flies out of the window and in comes a husband who is totally unreasonable. Is it not an afront to a Muslim if his wife decides she can no longer stands the sight of him and wants shot of him but he can leave the children?

BTW I don't know many Muslim men and would stop and think 'now what Mohammed would do in my situation?'

Someone let me know if we ever find one real life example of a Muslim man following all 3 steps laid out in the Quran. We can then check to see what was 'rebellious' about the woman in question.

Hypotheticals are all well and good, but I think it better to deal with reality. That's just me of course - others are free to discuss what they think might happen etc.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique ,

I notice you didn't comment on the piece I'd seen on the news about the disobedient wife in Afghanistan. I've no idea what steps he took before he locked her in the cellar.

What you described BM is clearly a crime and the guy should be (was?) punished for the crime. It was clearly not in line with what Islam teaches - that was clear, I didn't think it was worth stating the obvious. Forcing a lady into prostitution has nothing to do with any religious teaching - to most people this does not need saying.

My point is still that the Quranic verse in question effectively, in practice, in reality, means that Muslim men cannot beat their wives. It is not a licence to beat - quite the opposite. The proof of the pudding is in the eating - I know of no Muslim man that has applied all 3 steps as laid out in the Quran.

Any instance of wife beating is therefore against the teachings of Islam.

Cheers,

Shafique

My point is still that the Quranic verse in question effectively, in practice, in reality, means that Muslim men cannot beat their wives.

Sounds like you're fighting hypothetical with hypothetical.

And I've shown in practice that Muslim men beat their wives using this verse.

My article about the German Imam says this verse was explicitly cited to justify beating of his wife.

Your rebuttal?

Making up your own version of the story that the Imam did not really follow the Koran.

Your evidence? You have none. You spun your belief out of thin air.

It is not a licence to beat - quite the opposite. The proof of the pudding is in the eating - I know of no Muslim man that has applied all 3 steps as laid out in the Quran.

That you don't know if any of your Muslim friends beat their wives - apparently Muslim husbands talk about beating their wives and whether they followed the steps laid out in the Koran with each other - is your proof that no Muslims, anywhere, could possibly beat their wives based on what the Koran instructs?

Strange, you can't imagine Muslims beating their wives according to the Koran but you won't address my questions because it would become apparent how easy it actually is for a Muslim to beat his wife based exactly on what the Koran says.

Actually eh, as I sated a few times before, it is your blogger friends who have this obsession with coming up with spin on Quranic verses which have no basis in reality.

If you are right, then you should be able to find some Muslim men who have applied this verse in practice. I await your first instance.

My point has been quite consistent - this verse is to show that men ARE NOT allowed to batter their wives in Islam - there is no excuse for domestic violence or wife beating. Bloggers imagining it is easy does not count as evidence.


Cheers,
Shafique

I have found the Imam from Germany who is in jail for beating his wife. The article said he followed the wife beating verse in the Koran and the verse was quoted in full.

Am I to believe, without evidence, that an Imam who cites this verse cannot properly understand its clear teachings?

And sorry, how would a verse that says to beat your wife for suspicions show that wife beating is intolerable?

Wouldn't a verse that says wife beating is intolerable and categorically condemns physical violence against women be a better passage?

The example you gave was not a person following the Quranic verse and no cleric/expert/credible person has stated that he did and that it was ok under Islam.

Keep searching eh - when you find one example, I'll happily examine it with you.

Cheers,
Shafique

The example you gave was not a person following the Quranic verse and no cleric/expert/credible person has stated that he did and that it was ok under Islam.

The article said he was following the Koran.

Your evidence that the Imam was not following the Koran is...what?

Fail.

The article does not say he followed the verse, but that he allegedly recited a Quranic verse when he beat his wife.

Did you not read what you posted?

Cheers,
Shafique

Fail.

Where does the article say he did not follow the verse he cited?

Did you actually read the article you quoted?

event horizon wrote:The article said he was following the Koran.

It doesn't, therefore you either didn't read the article or are intentionally lying. Which is it?

Cheers,
Shafique

Yes I read the article. It does not say he was not following the Koran.

So, either you did not read the article or you were intentionally lying.

shafique wrote:The example you gave was not a person following the Quranic verse

So you lied. The article does not say he was following the Quran as you stated.

What the article described was a man beating his wife in anger - that is not according to the Quranic commandment. I read, and understood, your quote. You should go back and re-read, and apologise for lying.

Cheers,
Shafique

No, the article does not say the Imam did not follow the verse he cited.

However, we know the Imam cited a wife beating verse and beat his wife.

Seems like he put scripture to practice.

Now does the Koran say you can't beat your wife in anger if you suspect her of being rebellious or until she becomes obedient?

Seems like you're in denial about your bare-faced lie. The article does not state he followed the Quranic instructions as you wrongly stated it did.

You were careless - you could have said 'I interpret what was not written to be a vindication of my blogger friend's theory' but what you actually said was a lie. You said:

event horizon wrote:The article said he was following the Koran.

It doesn't.

Now, should you ever find one case of a Muslim man following the Quranic verse, let me know.

Cheers,
Shafique

Now, are you going to apologize for your lie that the Imam citing the Koran did not follow the Koran when he beat his wife?

I've explained to you what the article says. For someone to lie on another thread claiming a NYT article on rape was really talking about domestic abuse and now turn around and call someone else a liar is a bit rich.

The fact remains you lied when you claimed the example I gave was not an example of someone following the Koran.

shafique wrote:Your example is of a man battering his wife and not following the instructions in the Quran.

Stop wriggling eh. You've been caught out lying. I haven't.

Imagining that I am a liar like you (and quoting me saying something true ) is both funny and desperate.

Now, should you EVER find one person who has followed the Quranic instructions - I'll happily discuss the details with you.

Cheers,
Shafique

We can compare my alleged lie with your actual lie:
dubai-politics-talk/oslo-immigrant-account-for-domestic-violence-cases-t48539.html#p396595

But I'd first like you to address my questions you're keen on avoiding now that I've shown an Imam was arrested for domestic abuse for beating his wife for disobedience after citing the Koran which says to beat your wife for disobedience:

What do wives need to do to ensure their husbands do not suspect rebellion?

Is it "logical" to beat your wife on suspicions? After all, if she pleads she's innocent she's only lying and further steps (beatings) need to be taken.

Imagining that I am a liar like you (and quoting me saying something true

So where did my "example" (ie., article) say the imam did not follow the Koran when it says he quoted the Koran on wife beating when he beat his wife?

You lied.

event horizon wrote:The article said he was following the Koran.

It doesn't. The article doesn't even say the man gave this as an excuse for his wife beating. Failure upon failure, again, by you eh.

Now, should you find one instance where a Muslim did follow the Quranic instruction - let us know.

Cheers,
Shafique

You lied.

shafique wrote:There is a problem with domestic violence in Norway - the majority (80%) of incidents aren't reported

Now please stop squirming and address the questions you've been too ashamed to address.

Wrong thread eh - stop trolling. And in any case I've dealt with your confusion in detail in that thread already:
http://www.dubaiforums.com/dubai-politics-talk/oslo-immigrant-account-for-domestic-violence-cases-t48539.html#p396701


In this thread, you have been caught out in a lie - deal with it.

Just admit it - you cannot find one instance. Not one.

Cheers,
Shafique

What about the 9 out of 10 'rebellious' wives in Afghanistan? Are you saying that 9 out of 10 husbands don't follow the teachings of the Koran when they chastise their wives?

That's a lot of men disobeying Allah.

^Yes BM - IF 90% of the Afghanistani men are beating their wives then 90% of Afghani men are not obeying the Quran. To think otherwise will be as silly as arguing Catholicism says it is ok for priests to touch up young boys - and no one is silly enough to say that are they!

By my sampling - 100% of eh's blogger friends are living in fictional worlds and are allergic to facts. Care to comment?

Perhaps you can join in and help eh find one person who has followed the Quranic instructions. Eh is struggling big time - even resorting to lying about a quote he himself posted.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:By my sampling - 100% of eh's blogger friends are living in fictional worlds and are allergic to facts. Care to comment?

I might do if I knew EH's blogger friends were. I'm afraid I've no idea who you are talking about.

I'm taking my info from the BBC, that 90% of Afghani men subject their wives to domestic violence.

You'd think those women would have learnt their lesson by now.