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event horizon · Dec 30, 2011

Muhammad said war is deceit.

Indeed, we see how dishonest members on this forum can be.

But where does this dishonesty stem from?

In one particular religion, a doctrine known as taqiyya permits adherents to lie to non-believers; hence the dishonesty of the holy rollers on the forum:

To better understand Islam, one must appreciate the thoroughly legalistic nature of the religion. According to sharia (Islamic law) every conceivable human act is categorised as being either forbidden, discouraged, permissible, recommended, or obligatory....

The primary Quranic verse sanctioning deception with respect to non-Muslims states: "Let believers not take for friends and allies infidels instead of believers. Whoever does this shall have no relationship left with Allah – unless you but guard yourselves against them, taking precautions." (Quran 3:28; see also 2:173; 2:185; 4:29; 22:78; 40:28.)

Al-Tabari's (838-923 AD) Tafsir, or Quranic exegeses, is essentially a standard reference in the entire Muslim world. Regarding 3:28, he wrote: "If you [Muslims] are under their [infidels'] authority, fearing for yourselves, behave loyally to them, with your tongue, while harbouring inner animosity for them... Allah has forbidden believers from being friendly or on intimate terms with the infidels in place of believers – except when infidels are above them [in authority]. In such a scenario, let them act friendly towards them."

Regarding 3:28, the Islamic scholar Ibn Kathir (1301-1373) wrote: "Whoever at any time or place fears their [infidels'] evil, may protect himself through outward show."

As proof of this, he quotes Muhammad's companions. Abu Darda said: "Let us smile to the face of some people while our hearts curse them." Al-Hassan said: "Doing taqiyya is acceptable till the day of judgment [in perpetuity]."

Other prominent ulema, such as al- Qurtubi , al-Razi, and al-Arabi have extended taqiyya to cover deeds. Muslims can behave like infidels – from bowing down and worshipping idols and crosses to even exposing fellow Muslims' "weak spots" to the infidel enemy – anything short of actually killing a fellow Muslim....

http://www.meforum.org/2095/islams-doct ... -deception

Nucleus · Dec 31, 2011

Taqiyya is only in shia school of thought, it is not like the way you are presenting. Under life threating situation they can lie about their faith, which is not so unreasonable.

shafique · Dec 31, 2011

Would you call herve pretending to be a woman on-line (and in real life) to be a form of Taqiyya?

I can imagine him blaming Muslims for him wanting to pretend to be a woman fan of his - i.e. making up imaginary fans of his book and his conspiracy theories!

eh - is on the ropes. He's now trawling the Islamophobic websites for tired old and discredited arguments against Islam. Next he'll be telling us that Islam was spread by the sword and his classic 'the crusades weren't holy wars'.

As nucleus points out, the Islamophobic strawman of Taqiyya is just not relevant here, and is just another one of those tired Islamophobic talking points that Muslims are lying when they expose the blatant falsehoods of Islamphobic misinterpretations.

At the end of the day, this is just eh trying to avoid the actual issues in the Bible.

And also to divert attention away from his other failed theories and empty boasts - such as finding one expert who agrees with his blogger-only theory that Islam is responsible for honour killings.

In short. Fail. Epic Fail. Again.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 31, 2011

Next I'll be told not to believe that Islam sanctions Muslims to lie by a Muslim with a history of lying.

Then I'll be told taqiyya is a "discredited myth" ingoring the previous Muslim poster admitting that taqiyya is actually a Shi'ite Muslim belief - totally contradicting the claim of taqiyya being a myth.

Which is it? A myth or a Shi'ite Muslim belief?

Nevermind, as the author shows, Sunni Muslims adopted the belief because its basis is actually found in the Koran and hadith Sunni Muslims accept.

So, regardless of its origins, taqiyya can be practiced by any Muslim who believes in following the Koran - since the Koran instructs Muslims to lie to non-believers.

It's no coincidence that the biggest liar is also one of the most openly religious members on the forum.

Nucleus · Jan 02, 2012

I said it is only in shia school of thought. Which makes about only 20% of the muslims. And it is not even unreasonable, although I believe different for other reasons.

event horizon · Jan 02, 2012

Do you think people should lie about being Sunni Muslim so they could go on pilgrimage to Mecca?

Isn't that taqiyya?

Nucleus · Jan 02, 2012

No they shouldn't; and shia go for pilgrimage without lying.

That may or may not be taqiyaa, depends. If their life is under threat and they lie I don't see that as unreasonable.

event horizon · Jan 02, 2012

No, they lie about being Sunni Muslim so they can go on pilgrimage.

Your life isn't in danger in the first place if you go to Saudi Arabia on your own free will.

Just ask shafique, he's been to Mecca for pilgrimage.

I'm sure he can confirm that one's life isn't in danger to voluntarily enter Mecca and lie about being a Sunni Muslim.

shafique · Jan 03, 2012

Why would a Shia lie about being a Sunni?

I haven't actually been for Haj (so yet another falsehood on the part of eh), but I have been to Saudi and been to Mecca for Umrah and also visited Medina (as well as been in Riyadh, Jeddah and Dammam). All Muslims are allowed in Mecca - regardless of the sect they are. I wasn't asked whether I was sunni or shia or any other sect.

Cheers,

Shafique

Nucleus · Jan 03, 2012

event horizon wrote:No, they lie about being Sunni Muslim so they can go on pilgrimage.

My shia relatives and friends went to hajj and they didn't lie about being sunni. Few of my shia relatives did hajj couple of times.

event horizon · Jan 03, 2012

I never said anything about Shi'ites.

I was referring to an individual who refers to himself as a Sunni Muslim and went to Saudi Arabia and entered the holy city of Mecca - but is not a Muslim.

shafique · Jan 03, 2012

eh, your memory isn't that great. You should have recalled that Dubai Knight explained that he visited Mecca and Medina, and that he is a non-Muslim.

Dubai Knight wrote:
Er...I have been to both Mecca and Medina.

I am non Muslim.

From personal experience, the big issue in KSA is not religion. Its nationality.

On the whole, the Saudis have an issue with 'trust' based on their historical experiences of other nationalities understanding and acceptance of their culture and thinking. If you can demonstrate that you are not intent on undermining their conservative values, the trust level increases. I was invited to go to Mecca and Medina and was openly welcomed in both locations as a visiting non Muslim. I also made it clear that I was not a potential convert to Islam and that my intent was one of gaining a better understanding of the religion and the positive influences it has on the lives of the faithful.

dubai-politics-talk/double-apartheid-saudi-t42263-15.html#p340110

It was a thread by FD and you posted in it as well. Both your and FD's responses to Dubai Knight's post are most enlightening..!

Cheers,

Shafique

event horizon · Jan 03, 2012

So did you go on that guided tour when you went to Mecca?

shafique · Jan 03, 2012

I didn't go on a guided tour - but did have a local guide me when I did the Umrah.

Cheers,

Shafique

Nucleus · Jan 03, 2012

event horizon wrote:I never said anything about Shi'ites.

I was referring to an individual who refers to himself as a Sunni Muslim and went to Saudi Arabia and entered the holy city of Mecca - but is not a Muslim.

You have lost me. You said this:

event horizon wrote:No, they lie about being Sunni Muslim so they can go on pilgrimage.

huh?

Flying Dutchman · Jan 03, 2012

Ahmadi's, Nucleus.

Nucleus · Jan 03, 2012

Flying Dutchman wrote:Ahmadi's, Nucleus.

Ahmadi's don't have taqiyya.

Flying Dutchman · Jan 03, 2012

AFAIK Ahmadi's as such are not allowed to enter Mecca for Hajj. By the far majority of Sunni Muslims they are viewed as non-muslims. On their application they fill in sunni muslim though in order to get a visum. Isn't that taqiyya?

shafique · Jan 03, 2012

^Where did you get your information from FD?

From what I recall, the Saudi authorities don't ask what sect a Muslim (or a Christian for that matter) is from. I trust you're not getting your information from eh or his blogger friends. May I suggest you check your sources.

Same goes for the UAE for that matter.

Cheers,
Shafique

Flying Dutchman · Jan 03, 2012

Visa application for ksa requires to specify your religion.

I never had to state my religion in UAE.

If ahmadi's donot have taqiyya how then can they enter ksa, where they are considered apostates.

shafique · Jan 03, 2012

A Shia and a Sunni would both answer 'Islam' as their religion - my point was that the KSA, to my recollection, does not ask whether you are Shia/Sunni or whatever - just the religion.

To my recollection, this is also asked on the visa forms for the UAE - I had to fill in the details for the work visa. It was a while back, and if I recall correctly it was also a field on the driving licence application.. but I may be mistaken.

Anyway, the point is that where asked - it was only 'religion' (i.e. Islam, Christianity etc) and not sect that was required.

So, I ask you again - where are you getting your info about people writing 'Sunni' or 'Shia' Muslim etc on KSA forms?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Jan 03, 2012

Are Ahmadis allowed to freely enter Mecca and Medina and perform the rituals as real Muslims or would an Ahmadi need to deceive Muslims by claiming they're Muslim and a Sunni Muslim if asked any follow up questions?

Btw, do Ahmadis put down "Ahmadi" or Muslim on their visa to KSA?

Flying Dutchman · Jan 03, 2012

shafique wrote:my point was that the KSA, to my recollection, does not ask whether you are Shia/Sunni or whatever

Hmm ok, an ex-roommate had to deliver a statement for his mosque or something.

If an Ahmadi would be asked whether s/he believes Muhammed is the last prophet (which is in review for Hajj applications IIANM), the Ahmadi would have to lie. Thats besides the fact Ahmadi's are considered apostates and need to hide their being Ahmadi's in KSA.

Nucleus · Jan 03, 2012

Flying Dutchman wrote:If ahmadi's donot have taqiyya how then can they enter ksa, where they are considered apostates.

Ahamdi don't believe in the doctrine of taqiyya, not sure where this is coming from. Taqiyya is in shia fiqh.

shafique · Jan 03, 2012

FD - again, where are you getting your information from? I suggest you check your sources again.

I have been to Mecca and Medina and was not asked at any point whether I was shia, wahabbi, salafi etc.

When asked what religion - all would answer 'Islam'.

I'm sure there are enough real issues we disagree on without having a need to invent issues (like eh does all the time).

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Jan 03, 2012

Would a Muslim say Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is the last or not the last in the line of prophets sent by Allah?

1) Last prophet of Allah

2) Not the last prophet of Allah

Would Muslims pick choice '1' or '2'?

shafique · Jan 03, 2012

A Muslim would answer 'Islam' when asked what their religion was. Duh. :roll:

As I stated in my posts above, what the Saudi authorities ask on the forms is 'Religion' - and the answer would be Islam (whether you are Shia, Wahabi, sunni, Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi, Brevli, Ismaeli etc etc)

Your fail is epic, young one.

Cheers,
Shafique

Bethsmum · Jan 03, 2012

event horizon wrote:Would Muslims pick choice '1' or '2'?

You need to make that a bit easier.

event horizon · Jan 04, 2012

A Muslim would answer 'Islam' when asked what their religion was. Duh.

So would a Muslim say Muhammad was or wasn't the final prophet and messenger of Allah?

shafique · Jan 04, 2012

Why do you believe in talking donkeys? (Well, I'm guessing you are just asking random questions now).

You've failed eh - to enter KSA people are asked what their religion is - and the answer is either 'Islam' 'Christianity' or the name of another religion.

Your argument has back-fired spectacularly. Again. No Taqiyya in sight.

Must try harder.

Cheers,
Shafique

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