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shafique wrote:This is encapsulated in 16.90 of the Quran:

Allah commands justice, the doing of good, and liberality to kith and kin, and He forbids all shameful deeds, and injustice and rebellion: He instructs you, that ye may receive admonition.

There's no Golden or "Platinum" rule in that verse.

It simply says to treat people well - all religious books carry that message.

Actually, a careful reading of the verse, which you did not provide, says to treat family and friends well.

The message/teaching/command of that verse - to treat the in-group well - falls far short of the teachings of the New Testament to treat the "Other" and even the enemy well.

--- Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:20 pm ---

shafique , nice rebuttal by Hitchens

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcWrAxOW ... r_embedded

eh - what have I told you about interpreting the Quran solely from your perspective of one translation. You have to go to the Arabic.

I explained the Platinum rule to you and explained that this stems from 16.90 - the highest level of virtue is treat everyone the way in which you would treat kith and kin, i.e. do for them without thinking of getting anything in return.

The next level down is to do more for those who have done things for you - i.e. be 'kind' and 'generous'.

The lowest level is 'justice' - be fair to all.

All address 'the other'.

Not only does God give the positive things we must do, but also what we must avoid - shameful deeds, injustice and rebellion. A beautiful and comprehensive verse.

Cheers,
Shafique

eh - what have I told you about interpreting the Quran solely from your perspective of one translation. You have to go to the Arabic.

I was using the translation *YOU* provided. If you have a problem with that interpretation, then why did you use it?

Oh, and the same applies with you. You're arriving at an interpretation based on one translation from the Koran without consulting multiple interpretations, Arabic, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Try to follow your own advice. Otherwise it's fairly obvious you're setting up smoke screens.

I explained the Platinum rule to you and explained that this stems from 16.90

The verse says to treat kith and kin well, NOT as you would treat kith and kin.

It's basic reading comprehension.

Here's part of the translation YOU provided:

Allah commands justice, the doing of good, and liberality to kith and kin

Do good to your friends and family.

The verse says nothing about treating others as you would like to be treated or how they would like to be treated.

Just for you, here's Pickthall's translation of the verse:

Lo! Allah enjoineth justice and kindness, and giving to kinsfolk, and forbiddeth lewdness and abomination and wickedness. He exhorteth you in order that ye may take heed.

Go ahead, highlight the part of the verse that actually talks of treating others as they would like to be treated.

Even Wikipedia says the Golden (and therefore the Platinum) rule is not explicitly mentioned in the Koran.

I guess it's your reading skills vs everyone else's.

eh, please stop trolling threads. This thread is not about your deliberate misinterpretations of other people's religions.

I've explained the Platinum rule to you and explained how it derives from God's commandment in the Quran how to treat others - the highest level being to treat them as you would treat your family.

Why don't you try and be positive for a change and tell us the rule you follow and join in the discussion about whether you follow the rule (golden or platinum) and whether you agree with those who say it can't be done sincerely etc.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:I've explained the Platinum rule to you and explained how it derives from God's commandment in the Quran how to treat others - the highest level being to treat them as you would treat your family.

Unfortunately, the verse doesn't say to treat OTHERS as you would treat your family.

The verse is talking about how to treat your family.

Please show where this verse says to treat others as you would treat your family:

Koran 16:90 wrote:Allah commands justice... to kith and kin, and He forbids all shameful deeds, and injustice and rebellion: He instructs you, that ye may receive admonition.

Allah commands justice to kith and kin. How are you misreading this sentence to think it says something about treating others like you would your family?

No one else reads this verse as you do.

Here's yet another translation of the verse that is just as clear:

Koran 16:90 wrote:Indeed, Allah orders justice and good conduct and giving to relatives and forbids immorality and bad conduct and oppression. He admonishes you that perhaps you will be reminded.

Giving to relatives. Not giving to others as you would your relatives.

You're either illiterate or being deceitful.

Quran doesn't say that because a loony who doesn't treat his family kindly might take it differently. Quran explicitly says to be righteous and defines what is righteous. But golden rule is explicitly mentioned in the hadith.

There are many verses in the Quran and there are many hadith, but I don't have much time these days so I'll quote only 1 for each:

Quran:
It is not Al-Birr (piety, righteousness, and obedience to Allâh, etc.) that you turn your faces towards east and (or) west (in prayers); but Al-Birr is (the quality of) the one who believes in Allâh, the Last Day, the Angels, the Book, the Prophets and gives his wealth, in spite of love for it, to the kinsfolk, to the orphans, and to Al-Masâkîn (the poor), and to the wayfarer, and to those who ask, and to set slaves free, performs As-Salât, and gives the Zakât, and keep their word whenever they make a promise, and who are patient in extreme poverty and ailment (disease) and at the time of persecution, hardship, and war. Such are the people of the truth and they are Al-Muttaqûn (the pious).
[Chapter 2]


Hadith:
A Bedouin came to the prophet, grabbed the stirrup of his camel and said: O the messenger of God! Teach me something to go to heaven with it. Prophet said: “As you would have people do to you, do to them; and what you dislike to be done to you, don't do to them. Now let the stirrup go! [This maxim is enough for you; go and act in accordance with it!]”
[Kitab al-Kafi, vol. 2, p. 146]

Edit: I see eh deleted his post or somebody else deleted his post.

--- Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:16 pm ---

Mod please move it to the theard. Thanks.

I'm glad that a new thread about what the Quran says about treating others has been created.

What is strange is why event horizon is upset at God's commandments about the treatment of others in 16.90.

Here is my original post which explains these levels - including the Arabic terms which event horizon is struggling with:

I try to live my life by an extention to the Golden Rule - what I call the Platinum Rule:

Treat others as they would want to be treated.

This stems from the Philosophy within Islam which says that there are 3 levels of empathy that believers must extend to others. The lowest level is called Absolute Justice (Adl) - where you treat others fairly. This is the lowest level of virtue - to do anything unjust to others would be against Islam.

The next level up is Kindness (to grant someone more than his due) - (Ihsan). I.e. you give them more than what they are due from their actions - you are kind to people.

The highest level is (Ita'i Dhil-Qurba) - 'Kindred' -to treat others as you would treat family, i.e. give them love etc without any regard for how they actually behave towards you/others - as you would treat your child/parents/siblings.


This is encapsulated in 16.90 of the Quran:

Allah commands justice, the doing of good, and liberality to kith and kin, and He forbids all shameful deeds, and injustice and rebellion: He instructs you, that ye may receive admonition.

I agree with the Golden rule being win-win, the Platinum rule is to ensure that the other person feels like it is win-win, and requires that one is empathetic rather than projecting what I think the other person wants onto them. That does require extra effort and it means dropping assumptions one has about situations, and asking lots of questions.

Acting with justice does mean that you provide support to the weak and oppose those who are committing injustices themselves, but there are also Just, Kind and Benevolent ways of countering injustice.

When it comes to debating with people with different views, be it about religion or any other topic, I find this instruction from the Quran (16.125) to be a helpful guide:
Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance.

I often fall short of these goals, but to err is human.

Cheers,
Shafique

Well, if we look at the verse, we see there is no mentioning of doing to others as you would do to your friends and family.

The verse says to do good to your friends and family. It's a nice verse, but not does come near the moral teachings in other religions which say to do good to the "other" as well as those close to you.

I suppose nucleus acknowledges this as well by providing another passage from the Koran and saying of Muhammad.

Nucleus wrote:But golden rule is explicitly mentioned in the hadith.

Agreed. The golden rule is not explicitly mentioned in the Koran and the Platinum rule is nowhere to be found. Though I agree that the hadith you posted is indeed an example of the golden rule.

event horizon wrote:Agreed. The golden rule is not explicitly mentioned in the Koran and the Platinum rule is nowhere to be found. Though I agree that the hadith you posted is indeed an example of the golden rule.

And your point? It doesn't need to, it doesn't have to be in the same way as "do to unto others as you would you want for yourself" Quran pretty much expanded version of 10 commandments, thats one way to sum up Quran.

The Platinum rule is to keep on believing on your lord and submit your will to him.

Golden rule is to follow the 5 pillars of islam.

Silver is to remain silent.

Thats according to me. There are no golden and platinum rules.

The 'Platinum Rule' is what I call the highest level of empathy in Islam - where one treats others as if they were family.

16.90 is a beautiful verse that states the three levels of interactions with others one should do, and also what one shouldn't do.



The lowest level is Justice - act with justice with others, do unto them as they would do unto you - therefore this encompasses the Golden Rule.

The next level is 'kindness': i.e. do unto others MORE than they would do unto you.

The highest level is 'kinship' : i.e. do unto others as you would do to family - act with benevolence and grace, regardless of how they would do unto you.


Then God tells us what not to do: Keep away from shameful deeds, rebellion and injustice.

Logical and beautiful.

Cheers,
Shafique

So which part of the verse says to treat others as your family rather than the verse saying to treat your family well?

Why would the verse say to treat others well in addition to treating them like one's own family?

Just highlight the part of the verse you imagine it saying to treat others like your family.

Oh, and try to be a little more original than parroting from Ahmadi commentaries of this verse.

I highlighted the words in Arabic for you above. Try and keep up eh.

The highest level is (Ita'i Dhil-Qurba) - 'Kindred' -to treat others as you would treat family, i.e. give them love etc without any regard for how they actually behave towards you/others - as you would treat your child/parents/siblings.

This is the 3rd of the three levels in the Quranic verse.

Justice (Adl) encompasses the Golden rule and is the lowest level. I note that you are now not-so-subtly avoiding this point. Do you disagree that the Golden Rule is encompassed in this lowest level?

Kindness - doing more to others than they do to you, is next level up and I note is not disputed by you.

Do you disagree that the highest level - treating others like family, is higher than Kindness and the Golden Rule?


Cheers,
Shafique

Yes, shafique. Come up with your own material instead of stealing talking points from an Ahmadi website.

Why do the translations, any of them, not simply say what you're claiming the Arabic says?

I'm just asking you to highlight any translation that you say says to treat others like family.

That is, afterall, the basis by which I said the verse has nothing to do with the "Platinum rule".

This is the 3rd of the three levels in the Quranic verse.

Pray tell, where does the verse indicate any type of level...at all?

Justice (Adl) encompasses the Golden rule and is the lowest level.

That is honestly the dumbest argument I've heard for awhile. Congratulations.

One wouldn't need to actually define the Golden Rule if that were the case.

I note that you are now not-so-subtly avoiding this point. Do you disagree that the Golden Rule is encompassed in this lowest level?

Yes, the verse doesn't mention the golden rule. Please try to read the verse. Saying the word justice doesn't say anything about the golden rule.

Kindness - doing more to others than they do to you, is next level up and I note is not disputed by you.

Great, the Koran sits next to thousands of other pieces of literature that says to be kind to others.

Wow, that's extraordinary.

Do you disagree that the highest level - treating others like family

The verse doesn't say to treat others like family.

It says to treat family well.

Your mind is polluted and delusional if you're reading anything else.

Surely God bids...giving to kinsmen

So how is "giving to kinsmen" turned into treating others like family?

LOL - so you find a commentary that agrees with what I wrote and suddenly 'not being original' is a bad thing. That's some perverse logic there eh - the next time you cut and pastes from an Islamophobic website I may remind you of this logic.



I note you're studiously avoiding the questions posed to you. The Golden rule is lowest level, Adl - no disagreement from you there. (Edit - I now see that you've edited your post and your argument is that 'this is dumb'. Really - is that your argument? )

Kindness, the next level up is higher virtue than the Golden rule - doing more to others..

Kinship - is the highest level.



The 'Platinum rule' is my summary : Do unto others as they would want done unto them.



May I ask what your problem with this teaching is? You seem more interested in the fact that the Quran contains these teachings and wanting to deny that God gave these teachings. Why is that?



Cheers,

Shafique

event horizon , first of all he is right about the translation of the word. Second, I don't really know if that came from Ahmadi site, but not everything Ahmadi say is wrong.

shafique wrote:LOL - so you find a commentary that agrees with what I wrote and suddenly 'not being original' is a bad thing

No, I found the commentary you lifted your original post from with a bit of paraphrasing. But it's obviously the source of your post.

shafique wrote:That's some perverse logic there eh - the next time you cut and pastes from an Islamophobic website I may remind you of this logic

Was there ever a time when this happened or are you thinking of when I caught you lifting your talking points from the same website before?

The Golden rule is lowest level, Adl - no disagreement from you there. (Edit - I now see that you've edited your post and your argument is that 'this is dumb'. Really - is that your argument? )

Ah yes, otherwise everyone talking about justice would be talking about the Golden Rule. Only in your mind is this the case.

Kinship - is the highest level.

There is no "level" for kinship. The verse says to treat family well.

And where are any levels in this verse? Just because your commentary makes the claim doesn't make it so.

The 'Platinum rule' is my summary : Do unto others as they would want done unto them.

Then point out where the verse actually says that? Nucleus managed to find a hadith that has the Golden Rule. I'm happy to acknowledge where a verse or saying does contain the Golden Rule. I just don't like dishonest spin which is what you're giviing out.

He also apparently didn't see the "Platinum Rule" in that verse either.

What is your problem with the platinum rule though?

You've shown a commentary that also describes the three positive levels, and the actions forbidden.

Why are you so agitated over a positive teaching?

(Nucleus - you may want to clarify with event horizon which particular Arabic translation you agree with is correct)

Cheers,

Shafique

I think I explained your first and last questions. Perhaps you should try reading classes at your local community college?

I've asked you how "giving to family" is interpreted by you to mean treat othes like family.

Allah commands...liberality to kith and kin

It's a command to treat friends and family well. It says nothing about treating others like you would your family.

Your imagination, not mine.

Why are you avoiding the question? What is your problem with the Platinum rule?

The Platinum rule, as I explained, is my summary of the teachings. You have quoted a commentary of the verse that agrees with my description of the three levels, but still are insisting that I am wrong

If you want to believe that the commentary and my descriptions are just figments of an active imagination.. so be it. Your whole argument seems to be just 'sour grapes' though, and rather incoherent.

I ask again - what is wrong with the Platinum rule and the 3 levels of interactions with others as described. Is it not a beautiful teaching? Is there anything wrong with following it?

Cheers,

Shafique

Here is MA's translation:

BEHOLD, God enjoins justice, and the doing of good, and generosity towards [one's] fellow-men;[2087] and He forbids all that is shameful and all that runs counter to reason,[2088] as well as envy; [and] He exhorts you [repeatedly] so that you might bear [all this] in mind. (Quran 16:90)

2087. Lit., "the giving to [one's] kinsfolk (dhu 'l-qurba)". The latter term usually denotes "relatives", either by blood or by marriage; but since it occurs here in the context of a comprehensive ethical exhortation, it obviously alludes to man's "kinsfolk" in the widest sense of the term, namely, to his "fellow-men".

2088. The term al-munkar (rendered by me in other places as "that which is wrong") has here its original meaning of "that which the mind [or the moral sense] rejects", respectively "ought to reject". Zamakshari is more specific, and explais this term as signifying in the above context "that which [men's] intellects disown" or "declare to be untrue" (ma tunkiruhu al-'uqul): in other words, all that runs counter to reason and good sense (which, obviously, must not be confused with that which is beyond man's comprehension). This eminently convincing explanation relates not merely to intellectually unacceptable propositions (in the abstract sense of the term) but also to grossly unreasonable and, therefore, reprehensible actions or attitudes and is, thus, fully in tune with the rational approach of the Qur'an to questions of ethics as well as with its insistence on reasonableness and moderation in man's behaviour. Hence my rendering - of al-munkar, in this and in similar instances, as "all that runs counter to reason".

What is your problem with the Platinum rule?

I've answered your question, not avoided anything.

You have quoted a commentary of the verse that agrees with my description of the three levels, but still are insisting that I am wrong

If by agree, you mean your ideas were lifted from the commentary, then I suppose you're right, you "agree" with the commentary I just happened to "find".

I ask again - what is wrong with the Platinum rule and the 3 levels of interactions with others as described. Is it not a beautiful teaching? Is there anything wrong with following it?

1) Levels of interaction? Where in the verse do we see any sort of categorization?

2) How is a command to treat friends and family well a statement to treat others well like you would your friends and family?

Allah commands...liberality to kith and kin

[/quote]

It should speak volumes that you would ignore the actual passage itself and rely on imagined arguments from an Ahmadi missionary website.

2087. Lit., "the giving to [one's] kinsfolk (dhu 'l-qurba)". The latter term usually denotes "relatives", either by blood or by marriage; but since it occurs here in the context of a comprehensive ethical exhortation, it obviously alludes to man's "kinsfolk" in the widest sense of the term, namely, to his "fellow-men".

That's a wild belief I'm by no means remotely convinced by. "Friends and family" mean friends and family.

But the verse being a universal command, which it is not, does nothing to address where the verse says to treat others like you would your own family members.

In fact, if we are to believe "kin" refers to all humanity, then interpreting the passage as shafique does to somehow believe the passage says to treat others as your family wouldn't make sense - since it would be saying to treat others like you would humanity. Err.....

Thanks Nucleus.

The context is indeed a 'comprehensive ethical exhortation' - and as I explained the lowest level is the 'Golden Rule'.

eh - I trust you now see why I advised you against drawing your conclusions from an English translation. Do you now see how treating 'your fellow man' as your kin is indeed what God is commanding and why it is a higher level of virtue than the 'Golden Rule' - Adl?

(Edit, I see that you are still wriggling and trying to justify your denial. sigh)


Cheers,

Shafique

In fact, if we are to believe "kin" refers to all humanity, then interpreting the passage as shafique does to somehow believe the passage says to treat others as your family wouldn't make sense - since it would be saying to treat others like you would humanity. Err.....

Do you now see how treating 'your fellow man' as your kin

Try reading Nucleus' translation.

It doesn't mention family. It replaces family with mankind.

His argument contradicts your translation.

"Treat others as you would treat mankind"

Yeah, ok.

BEHOLD, God enjoins...generosity towards fellow-men

So the verse is about treating others like family? Where in this new translation are family/friends mentioned?

No eh, go back and re-read the explanation of the third level. I understand that you're reeling that nucleus, rather than agreeing with you, has produced another source that explains the same concept.

Treating mankind as you would treat family - benevolence and grace, without any notion of getting anything back.



Denial is not a pretty sight.

Cheers,

Shafique

Third level again? I didn't see any categorization in the verse. Pray tell, where should I look for "third level" in the verse itself?

Treating mankind as you would treat family

1) Family is replaced by mankind. Nucleus' new interpretation wouldn't make your claim make any sense - family is not even mentioned.

2) Where does the verse say anything about treating others like family? I see a clear verse that says to treat family/mankind well. Nothing about treating others as you would treat family...or mankind, whatever sense the latter is supposed to make.

event horizon wrote:It doesn't mention family. It replaces family with mankind.

His argument contradicts your translation.

"Treat others as you would treat mankind"

Yeah, ok.

It says mankind is your family as it is said in other places, we all are children of Adam. It can be interpreted that way. However, I said before, it doesn't have to be in the same style, even if Shafique is wrong in one specific point, overall what he is saying is correct. Whether you want to call it "Platinum Rule" or not that is beside the point.

Lets not lose forest for a tree.

It says mankind is your family as it is said in other places, we all are children of Adam

That's a side issue when I was talking about the universality of this verse.

What the Platinum Rule discussion is about is if the verse says to treat others like you would family (or mankind) rather than the verse saying to treat your family (mankind) well.

eh - the point is not what the words translate to in English, but rather the meaning of the complete phrase. But even if we break it down - the words there are 'giving ' 'to ones qurba' where qurba is kinship/family/mankind.

Itai Dhul Qurba - the third level in this comprehensive verse is talking about the concept of giving to others (mankind) as you would give to family.

That is the meaning of the phrase in this context.



Now, even if you wish to refuse to acknowledge the meaning of this phrase within this verse - I ask again - what is your problem with the teaching as explained? The platinum rule is just my labelling of this - so ignore this label for now.

Do you have anything against this teaching (regardless of whether you think it is in the Quran)?



I would hope you don't have anything against the teaching/concept itself. If a Muslim derives this understanding from this verse, how is that a bad thing?



Cheers,

Shafique

event horizon wrote:That's a side issue when I was talking about the universality of this verse.

What the Platinum Rule discussion is about is if the verse says to treat others like you would family (or mankind) rather than the verse saying to treat your family (mankind) well.

Then what is the purpose of calling mankind your family? It is connecting the two. But we are really splitting hairs.