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BM maybe some topics are just for joke but there are many others with very bad words believe me if any Muslim read it he will feel very hurt.
Shafique I noticed some names who are not joking with their posts but I always think why they hate Islam? Why any person want to hate other religion? We all know every religion believe it is best, but it also teach to respect all other religions in public to have peace.

Yosef wrote:Dillon, this is what I am trying to tell you. Islam is totaly against it, but some people think more culture than religion. I challenge you and even those criminals who practice this habbit to justify this crime in the name of religion. No way.

You’re asking ME to justify the crime in the name of religion? I ask that question of the resident defender in every post! You should ask the question of yourself Yosef as they are your brothers who are practicing this evil, not I!

-- Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:49 am --

shafique wrote:What is interesting Yosef is that what you are saying about honour killings having nothing to do with Islam has also been explicitly stated by experts quoted (and fully referenced) in posts in this thread. The original article in the first post does not mention Islam or Muslims, but BM made a comment about Islam which you picked up on.

So, in summary, we have an article which does not mention Muslims and Islam and explicit quotes which say that honour killings have nothing to do with Islam, Sikhism or Hindusim. I even highlighted portions in red to emphasise these points.

Dillon seems to have picked up some contrary information from some un-named source(s) and wants us to explain to him why his un-named sources are wrong. Perhaps you'll have a better chance of explaining the basics to him? Good luck.

Cheers,
Shafique

2,823 incidents of Honour Crime in 2010 resulting a 47% increase in just 12 Months in the UK alone, the perpetrators overwhelmingly muslim, contrary? I don’t think so, controversial? Most definitely.

-- Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:51 am --

shafique wrote:
Yosef, there are only a few people here who actively attack Islam and Muslims - most of the people in DF are quite rational and respectful, pointing out wrongs and rights regardless of the professed religions of the perpetrators.

There is a core of posters who post Islamophobic views and seem to believe in myths about Muslims and Islam. herve and capiscum are rabid Islamophobes who call Islam a voodoo cult and post messages celebrating the killing of Muslims and are proud to have nazi views about Muslims - viewing them exactly like Nazis described Jews (eg sub-human etc). herve even tries to convince people that Muslims should share his hatred!

The most extreme religious fanatic posting here is event horizon - a Christian from the USA who regularly copies from the Islamophobic websites and posts the hyped up anti-Muslim rants that are posted there. His extremist views concern again killing of civilians and terrorist acts - but he also has some 'interesting' views about contraditions in the Bible and beliefs such as talking donkeys and the earth stopping rotating:
philosophy-dubai/most-extreme-religous-fanatic-here-t41961-45.html

philosophy-dubai/biblical-confusion-t47353.html


But the main issue is Islamophobia of the 'core' Islam/Muslim haters. They are characterised by their ill-informed posts which usually amount to nothing more than cutting and pasting from Islamophobic websites or bloggers - or in Dillon's case here, just statements which aren't actually referenced.

A good website which tackles the core problem - is http://www.loonwatch.com - as explained here:
dubai-politics-talk/cbs-reporter-xually-assualted-crowd-200-egyptians-t45566.html#p368136


Cheers,
Shafique

So now you’ve vented your spleen this morning, I hope you feel a better man for trolling for another confrontation with other forum members with your Christianophobic, inflammatory, biased, extremist and imaginary, hate filled comment?

Back on topic, having, on several occasions in the thread, vociferously defended and invented pathetic excuses for the fact that muslims are the greater offenders by a long margin, of crimes of honour in the UK, you now attempt to discredit my opinion that the majority of offenders are not in fact muslim? Well there’s absolutely no doubt in my informed opinion whatsoever, if you can read English (And understand it!) it’s there for all to see, if you can be bothered to find, accept, and deal with the truth.

Wake up and smell the coffee Shaf.

I can read English and I can indeed post links and cite references. I'm wondering why you're being so coy about your source for your beliefs in the myth that Islam is even partly responsible for the honour crimes.

I mean, it is not from the article in the OP and you haven't cited any sources for your beliefs.

Cheers,
Shafique

Well this I've already explained in great detail, so as you claim to be able to read and undestand English! I suggest you go and read my back posts for enlightenment!

Interesting. I ask for sources for your beliefs and you simply state that I should reread your posts which don't contain the sources. Hmm.

Cheers,
Shafique

So there's your back door, your escape clause, use it, because you can't deny the truth.

Fact not fiction.

If it makes you feel happier to imagine you've given me sources for your belief - I guess you should continue to imagine.

Looking back, I see Andyba has cited a few sources, I've given you a few - and you've just stated your beliefs about the causal link between Islam and honour killings, even praising herve for his theory which lacked references too.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:you've just stated your beliefs about the causal link between Islam and honour killings

"Casual link" The truth really does hurt sometines doesn't it? you need to accept the truth and move on, don't harbour the pain, it's not good for your mental health.

"People try to blame Muslims, Hindus or Sikhs but it tends to happen in families where there are the strongest ties and expectations. It's a very strong cultural issue."

Leaders of the world's faiths have also strongly denounced a connection between religion and honour killings.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/honourcrime ... ur_1.shtml

I'm not the one who is out of step with evidence that has been provided. The reason I've asked Dillon to provide his sources is so we can see why he is out of line with the experts quoted.

Cheers,
Shafique

I'll give you a clue shall I?

Subject; Honour crimes against women in the UK rising rapidly, figures show 2,823 incidents in 2010 a rise of 47% from the previous Year. It is estimated that another 500 crimes in which police were involved were committed in the 13 force areas that did not provide data.

Not in some remote area of some third world tin pot dictators backwater, nor the mountains of South America, the subject matter is “Within the UK” and the perpetrators? Predominately muslim.

Abnegation must be a great place to live, I’ll have to try it some time!

How many of the 2,823 incidents were carried out by Muslims? How many of these said religion was their motivating factor, and how many of the non-Muslims cited religion as a factor?

The original article does not mention Islam or Muslim once. Cite your sources.

Look, I'll help you - honour crimes are one of the many crimes that violence against women highlight as a problem faced by women in the UK.

Each year across the UK 3 million women experience violence, and there are many more living with the legacies of abuse experienced in the past.

In the UK it includes: domestic violence, rape and sexual violence, sexual harassment, female genital mutilation, forced marriage, crimes in the name of honour, trafficking and sexual exploitation. It is mostly committed by men that women know or are in a close relationship with.

http://www.endviolenceagainstwomen.org. ... facts.html
(Note the extent of Domestic violence in the UK - about 50,000 cases a year in Scotland and ONE A MINUTE in England and Wales - so over half a million cases a year)

You seem to be more interesting in believing a myth that honour crimes are linked to religion - a point that was pointedly not made in the original article and is categorically denied by every citation quoted in this thread since.

The causal link between religion and honour crimes only seems to reside on Islamophobic blogs. Perhaps that is why you are being coy over where you picked up your mistaken belief?


Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:How many of the 2,823 incidents were carried out by Muslims? How many of these said religion was their motivating factor, and how many of the non-Muslims cited religion as a factor?

The original article does not mention Islam or Muslim once. Cite your sources.

Look, I'll help you - honour crimes are one of the many crimes that violence against women highlight as a problem faced by women in the UK.

Each year across the UK 3 million women experience violence, and there are many more living with the legacies of abuse experienced in the past.

In the UK it includes: domestic violence, rape and sexual violence, sexual harassment, female genital mutilation, forced marriage, crimes in the name of honour, trafficking and sexual exploitation. It is mostly committed by men that women know or are in a close relationship with.

http://www.endviolenceagainstwomen.org. ... facts.html

You seem to be more interesting in believing a myth that honour crimes are linked to religion - a point that was pointedly not made in the original article and is categorically denied by every citation quoted in this thread since.

The causal link between religion and honour crimes only seems to reside on Islamophobic blogs. Perhaps that is why you are being coy over where you picked up your mistaken belief?
Cheers,
Shafique

The article will not mention that the honour crimes are carried out by Muslims as this is not the way things are done in the UK, and you know that well enough. The fact that it was a Muslim womens group who requested the information under the Freedom of Information Act speaks volumes.
The quote you quote is your try to divert attention from honour crimes. Crimes of violence against spouses aren't classed as honour crimes.

Numpty.

Please give sources for your beliefs. You cited an article which does not mention Islam/Muslims - and yet want to blame Muslims.

I'm not trying to divert attention from any violence against women, just asking where the Islamophobic myth that Islam is to blame derives from. It can't come from the experts who say that religion isn't a factor or the Islamic clerics who say it is unIslamic? We've seen herve say he believes Islam is to blame, and Dillon committing the schoolboy error of believing correlation equals causality.

What we haven't seen is any evidence to back up the Islamophobic view.

Name calling is what I'd expect a person with no evidence will have to resort to.

If I understand you correctly, you want us to join you in 'believing' it is a Muslim/Islamic problem. Well, you've cited less than 3000 incidents (and that is bad) - but what is your belief of what is behind the 3 million acts of violence against women in the UK each year - what do you 'believe' is behind that. Do you blame Muslims for those acts too?

Cheers,
Shafique

WHEN! Are you going to learn that insulting other forum members, is NOT considered as appropriate behaviour, especially after Andyba's new guidelines in the forum, and is NOT going to win you any more friends?

I have answered ALL of your repeated questions and requests already, and do not intend answering ANY of them again! If there is something you don’t understand, go and read the back posts where you will find the reasoning behind my thoroughly considered and informed opinion that the majority of perpetrators of Honour Crimes in the UK are in fact, muslim.

Please feel free to use the resources available to you and do the same, I’m not your research assistant, and believe me, you won’t have to look too far for the truth.

There is evidence in your posts that you are easily distracted, or are you attempting to misdirect again? anyway, so please keep your search strings confined to "Honour Crimes in the UK, Guilty" or similar.

shafique wrote:Please give sources for your beliefs. You cited an article which does not mention Islam/Muslims - and yet want to blame Muslims.

I'm not trying to divert attention from any violence against women, just asking where the Islamophobic myth that Islam is to blame derives from. It can't come from the experts who say that religion isn't a factor or the Islamic clerics who say it is unIslamic? We've seen herve say he believes Islam is to blame, and Dillon committing the schoolboy error of believing correlation equals causality.

What we haven't seen is any evidence to back up the Islamophobic view.

Name calling is what I'd expect a person with no evidence will have to resort to.

If I understand you correctly, you want us to join you in 'believing' it is a Muslim/Islamic problem. Well, you've cited less than 3000 incidents (and that is bad) - but what is your belief of what is behind the 3 million acts of violence against women in the UK each year - what do you 'believe' is behind that. Do you blame Muslims for those acts too?

Cheers,
Shafique

Name calling? Says the person who refers to everyone who doesn't agree with him as a loon and refers to another poster as a scholboy in the very same post and has called me a liar on a number of occasions. You really should practice what you preach Shafique because being two faced makes you look even sillier than you already do.
I don't care whether you join me or not in my belief that Muslims are responsible for the majority of honour crimes in the UK. The lady who spoke on behalf of the Iranian and Kurdish womans group who requested the information did too and so did the Muslim MP who represents a consituency around the Birmingham area, where the increase in honour crimes amongst the Muslim population shows the greatest increase.
No Christians were interviewed during the report, or anyone else bar Muslims.

No I don't blame Muslims for all the acts of violence against women in the UK. That would just be silly.

Dillon - Interesting that you are getting upset because I have asked for your sources and simply asked how many of the 2,823 incidents were carried out by Muslims?

I'm not the one who has felt the need to resort to name calling. Labelling a view Islamophobic because it relies on a myth about Islam that so far no evidence has been provided for, is not name calling. Calling someone a numpty for asking you to tell us how many of the criminals were Muslim is against the rules however. Andy should take note.

It appears you are trying to distract us away from the lack of any substance to your beliefs. I have no problem with people stating their beliefs and that they don't agree with experts. However, it does get tiring to read excuses instead of actual evidence/statistics/facts.

The original article talks about a 47% increase in honour crimes in the UK. It does not talk about Muslims or any other religion. Given that this overall total of honour crimes amounts to fewer than 1% of the total crimes against women (which include honour crimes), I understand fully why you're shirking from looking for evidence to back up your views.

3 million crimes against women in the UK - which include honour crimes, is totally on topic - as it is about crimes in the UK against women.


Cheers,
Shafique

In your dreams, or maybe even in that little world in which you exist, who knows? And frankly your responses were expected as part of your overall strategy, however, it really doesn’t matter how far you want to move the goalposts from the subject matter or redefine the thread, the OP is there for all to see and the questions are still unanswered;

1, Why the majority of perpetrators of Honour Crimes in the UK are in fact, muslim, When there are just as many members and more, of other religions in the UK with the same cultural values.

2. The other question that people keep ignoring? You know, the one about Sharia Law decriminalising Murder

Another interesting fact - the IKWRO website does not link the honour crimes with Islam:
http://ikwro.org.uk/2011/12/03/nearly-3 ... in-the-uk/

I'm still waiting for herve, eh or even Dillon to produce one quote from a cleric which says Islam is ok with honour crimes. Quotes from clerics saying it isn't are easily available.

I've also tried to check how many of the 2,823 incidents last year were killings, and by how much the number of killings has increased. I've not seen the breakdown of the figures, nor have I seen how many of the 2,823 are Muslim and how many were Sikh or Hindu (or otherwise).

I've also not seen any evidence that counters the quotations and references given by Andy and myself (and others?) which state that Islam or any other religion has nothing to do with these honour crimes, which constitute less than 1% of the crimes against women in the UK. Still the 1% incidence rate is 1% too high, and we should do all we can to stop it.

Perhaps Dillon et al should write to IKWRO and ask them why they don't blame Islam like Dillon is so keen to do?

Cheers,
Shafique

So, no surprises there then as the ikwro site is .co.uk registered is there? this and all your concerns have been addressed in earlier posts, just repeating yourself really doesn't add any value to your, now desperate ramblings.

shafique wrote:I'm not the one who has felt the need to resort to name calling. Labelling a view Islamophobic because it relies on a myth about Islam that so far no evidence has been provided for, is not name calling. Calling someone a numpty for asking you to tell us how many of the criminals were Muslim is against the rules however. Andy should take note.

Cheers,
Shafique

So labelling someone a loon and calling someone a liar, as you frequently do is not against the rules, but putting numpty at the end of a post is?
Those are pretty strange rules by anyone's stretch of the imagination.
Why the wink face aswell? You wouldn't be trying to get me banned again would you?
Dear me. Men are men where I come from.

Dillon - I'm impressed at the strengths of your belief. I note the excuses you've constructed why there aren't any references to Islam being the cause of the honour killings in any of the sites etc cited, but there are explicit statements which say that Islam is not the cause.

As I stated before, the only people linking Islam/religion with these crimes seems to be those who are either not quoting their sources, or those who tend to believe with Islamophobic sites say (herve and eh in particular).

I'm still waiting for herve or eh to cite an Islamic cleric that says Islam condones honour crimes. The silence shows that their belief stems from the usual bloggers who have a perverse view of Islam.

Should anyone find out how many of the incidents were murders and how many were carried out by Muslims (and of those how many blamed religion), that would be helpful. It is clear that some won't let a little thing like facts get in the way of belief.

I wonder what the reasons we could construct for the 99% of the 3 million acts of violence against women in the UK that aren't classified as honour crimes? I don't think those are religously motivated either.


Cheers,
Shafique

Is your memory failing that fast, that you don’t recall the lies and misdirection in your content from post to post and you have to repeat yourself time and time again? Do you think that by repeating yourself so often that eventually you’ll believe your own fabrications?

Again, all your concerns have been addressed and the guilty parties of Honour Crimes in the UK are still, predominately, in the main, without doubt, muslim.

No excuses, no fiction just cold hard fact.

And the other question you are in denial over, you know, the one where Sharia Law decriminalises Honour Crimes?

It does, read the article on Syria posted in this thread. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Syria has Sharia Law.

Dillon - enough with the smoke and mirrors.

I've asked how many of the 2,823 incidents in the UK last year were by Muslims, how many perpetrators (amongst Muslims and non-Muslims) cited religion as the cause? You've failed to answer this, and given excuses.

I've asked how many honour killings were in this 2,823 and how many there were in the previous year in the UK. I'm still waiting - let's see what the real increase in killings is. The articles talk of a killing back in 2006 but no numbers since then.

I've asked for herve, eh and anyone else to provide one Islamic cleric which agrees with them that Islam condones honour crimes. They've failed.

It is a poor excuse to try and explain incidents in the UK with a theory that somewhere else there exist sharia courts which may excuse honour crimes (even though Islam does not). Smoke and mirrors.

The facts are that the original article does not mention, let alone blame, the religion of the criminals. Experts have been quoted that contradict what Islamophobic bloggers have concocted - i.e. that there's a link between the religion and the crimes.

Ergo, the only evidence provided in this thread does not mention Muslim/Islam as causes for the UK crimes, and experts on the subject say Islam/religion has no part in it. The rest is hot air and Islamophobic speculation that is not supported by anything more than an Islamophobic viewpoint. At least no evidence to support the viewpoint has been presented. That does speak volumes.

Facts, not fiction.

Cheers,
Shafique

Nucleus wrote:It does, read the article on Syria posted in this thread. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Syria has Sharia Law.

My question was about Countries where Sharia Law decriminalises Honour Crimes, so try looking at those Countries.

-- Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:10 am --

shafique wrote:Dillon - enough with the smoke and mirrors.

I've asked how many of the 2,823 incidents in the UK last year were by Muslims, how many perpetrators (amongst Muslims and non-Muslims) cited religion as the cause? You've failed to answer this, and given excuses.

I've asked how many honour killings were in this 2,823 and how many there were in the previous year in the UK. I'm still waiting - let's see what the real increase in killings is. The articles talk of a killing back in 2006 but no numbers since then.

I've asked for herve, eh and anyone else to provide one Islamic cleric which agrees with them that Islam condones honour crimes. They've failed.

It is a poor excuse to try and explain incidents in the UK with a theory that somewhere else there exist sharia courts which may excuse honour crimes (even though Islam does not). Smoke and mirrors.

The facts are that the original article does not mention, let alone blame, the religion of the criminals. Experts have been quoted that contradict what Islamophobic bloggers have concocted - i.e. that there's a link between the religion and the crimes.

Ergo, the only evidence provided in this thread does not mention Muslim/Islam as causes for the UK crimes, and experts on the subject say Islam/religion has no part in it. The rest is hot air and Islamophobic speculation that is not supported by anything more than an Islamophobic viewpoint. At least no evidence to support the viewpoint has been presented. That does speak volumes.

Facts, not fiction.

Cheers,
Shafique

Smoke and Mirrors are your speciality Shaf, I wouldn't dare attempt to compete with someone as proficient as you in that field! And I’m pretty sure by now, others are tiring of your bleating on with repeated questions that have all been previously addressed.

This really has upset you hasn’t it? Having the blatantly obvious pointed out to you, something you knew or at least suspected anyway already, I’ve no doubt! but probably thought you could keep swept under the carpet because the UK discrimination Laws wouldn’t permit the publishing of such detailed information, to the public domain.

Dave said recently that state multiculturalism had failed, that things had to change and the UK needed a “Stronger National Identity” maybe this is part of that new strategy, they say you have to “accept the truth” in order to be able to move forward with any new policies. Tell me, do you feel more British now and a bigger part on the stronger National Identity now that the truth has been brought out into the open and spoken of, rather than not having such “statistics” being released for public consumption? Do you feel there’s a weight been lifted from your shoulders now that we’re all reading from the same page?

There is still however the question of, well…you know, the one where Sharia Law decriminalises Honour Crimes?

My questions about the 2,823 incidents weren't rhetorical. How many of these were by Muslim, and were any of them actual killings? (I've not seen the breakdown.)

I wouldn't say that you not answering the questions about where your contrarian views come from upset me. Truth be told, I'm used to finding out that myths about Islam/religion rely on supposition, misquotes and hardly ever facts.

In this case we have an article which does not mention Islam/Muslims. You and others tried to make a link - and haven't given us any evidence for your belief of a link.

What has any foreign sharia court got to do with the OP which is about honour crimes in the UK? It seems to be just a weak way to make an Islamophobic argument that Islam condones honour crimes. A more direct way would be to find one Islamic cleric that agrees with you, herve and eh. You obviously can't find one, therefore you are only left with innuendo and supposition.

I'll stick to the facts and the experts. Here, let me quote you one again:

"People try to blame Muslims, Hindus or Sikhs but it tends to happen in families where there are the strongest ties and expectations. It's a very strong cultural issue."

Leaders of the world's faiths have also strongly denounced a connection between religion and honour killings.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/honourcrime ... ur_1.shtml

You can continue to believe your unknown sources.

When looking at crimes against women in the UK, I am concerned about all of the crimes. I agree with the moves to eradicate the 1% of crimes that take the form of the honour crimes in the OP, and I'd argue that the 99% of the 3 million crimes against women (eg one rape every 9 minutes) also need to be tackled. But as these aren't imagined to be carried out by non-whites, there's less of an outcry by some of my more xenophobic fellow Brits. Such as it always was.

Fact, not fiction.

Cheers,
Shafique

In an effort to assist you in your confusion, the question regarding Sharia Law decriminalising Honour Crimes, is related to the theory that most people subscribe to the belief that Islam does not condone Honour Crimes, for in fact, if this is the case, Sharia, based on Islamic beliefs, would treat Honour Crimes exactly the same as any other crime.

What has any foreign sharia court got to do with the OP which is about honour crimes in the UK?

There is no direct link as far as I can see, but it may have something to do with the fact that the vast majority of individuals found guilty of Honour Crimes in the UK are muslim, and because Sharia Law in their home Country, wherever that may be, does in effect condone and forgive Honour Crime, leading them into a false belief and sense of impunity against appropriate retribution in more civilised Countries.

So the conflict is, if Islam does not condone Honour Crimes, why does the Law of Islam in some Countries condone Honour Crimes?

Fortunately for other forum users, you don’t make up the rules by which others are expected to engage you, and I will continue, as before, in my informed opinion, with or without your blessings.

Fact.

An Edit, so you didn’t think I’d just ignored your edit.

One would expect the majority of crimes within a white majority population, would in fact be committed by White’s, but guess what? The vastly overwhelming majority of muslims who have been identified as the majority guilty party to Honour Crimes in the UK are in fact.. you guessed it, Brown! Can you believe that?

More Fact.

I understand herve's theory. I was asking from which source it came from - as no actual source has been cited.

The point made to herve, eh and others is that they should back up their Islamophobic claim that Islam condones honour crimes by producing one cleric which says this. Instead we get innuendo which seems to be all there is to this myth.

You will remain confused if you believe what Islamophobic bloggers tell you rather than look to see what experts on the subject actually say. Experts cited here categorically state that Islam does not condone honour crimes. You should ask the Islamophobes why they disagree with evidence and facts.

As for the 2,823 incidents in the OP - I'm patiently waiting to read how many of these are carried out by Muslims, and indeed how many of these are killings (and by how much they've gone up from the previous year).

I am concerned about all the crimes against women, and these honour crimes are inexcusable. They also represent 1% of the crimes against women in the UK.

If repeating your beliefs is all you have.. that speaks volumes too. I'd rather see some evidence though. Just labelling your belief as fact doesn't fool anyone.

Cheers,
Shafique

So nothing more to add then, other than recycling your assumptions?

Asking for a breakdown in 2,823 incidents is not making an assumption. It should be easy enough to check by how much the killings have gone up by (but so far I've not seen any numbers for honour killings last year). I guess we won't get a breakdown of Muslim vs non-Muslim perpetrators.

Pointing out that your whole argument that Islam condones honour crimes has so far just been based on a belief/theory that is not supported by any evidence or any expert is also not an assumption.

And, most tellingly, the linkage of religion with these crimes only seems to exist amongst bloggers who are racist, xenophobic and Islamophobic. But perhaps you got your theory from a different (more credible?) source - until you tell us, we won't know. I've cited my sources.

Cheers,
Shafique